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Thread: T2 FM: Thief II - The Golden Project - First City College (8-VII-09)

  1. #26
    jtr7
    Guest
    Thank you all the same, B_T.

  2. #27
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2008
    Location: in your second eyelids
    I survived without TTLG yesterday, but survivng without Thief was fairly impossible, when... an... associate of mine informed me of this mission being released. Sent me the DL mirrors, I DLed it and as I recently just discovered what Lytha Way is, I decided to try it on this mission.

    Success, pretty much! Got a few ghost busts, but that was necessary, to fulfill the complete loot objectives.
    I've got to say, it was a fun mission that way, plus it wasn't too big, which I was fond of, so I could finish it in a few hrs. (Though the game stats showed me 43 mins 29 secs. Also full loot, no damage to self or anyone else, all pockets picked (11 out of 12. I assume it was a bug? Because I'm fairly certain it was a bug), so all is well.

    That made my yesterday. Sayonara. ^_^

    P.S. I Agree with some of the criticism points added in the first page of the mission, but I was more amused than disappointed by them - they helped me do it Lytha's way.

  3. #28
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2005
    Location: Bulgaria
    I also think the pocket pick is incorrect, but haven't checked it...
    If I do plan releasing a new version, I'll address some of these issues. But first let's see what I'm going to release for the Verti... erm nothing... (blush)

    I'm glad you liked the FM!

    Btw I don't play in the Lytha way. I think there's a lootlist ready (by PotatoGuy) but I think I lost it. If I can find it, I'll send it to epithumia so he can add it to thiefmissions.

  4. #29
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2008
    Location: in your second eyelids
    I actually liked the pickpocket system. Maybe those scrolls by AI's belts could've been made smaller, so it doesn't look so silly, but all in all, I liked to rob each and every one of them without KO. It was a matter of getting past unseen or wait till the alert goes down.
    Good thing the garden was rather useless, just a dewdrop down there. Otherwise I would've needed a lot of crates to get back up and I think this mission didn't have enough.
    Oh and I found no problems collecting all loot, so I'm fairly confident I pwned it Lytha way completely.

    So that's my small feedback or whatever you call it.
    I seriously hope there's going to be other T2G missions. It felt pretty close to playing an OM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bulgarian_Taffer View Post
    Release for the Verti... erm nothing... (blush)

  5. #30
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2005
    Location: Bulgaria
    Quote Originally Posted by Thor02 View Post
    I seriously hope there's going to be other T2G missions. It felt pretty close to playing an OM.
    This is good!

    Actually, I think I have an archive of the old Slums mission with some progress made... I think it can be restored or parts of it multibrushed for another FM.

    As you mentioned the dewdrop I'm still amazed noone understood the fun part of the FM or still didn't pay much attention to it.

    EDIT : A lootlist has been sent to epithumia. Hope he will upload it.
    Last edited by Bulgarian_Taffer; 9th Jul 2009 at 07:34.

  6. #31
    I have to admit, I'm a bit confused by the concept of this mission. I have no problem with the mission itself, it's architecture, design, or gameplay. That part is fine.

    What I don't get is this - a mission was built around one of the unreleased Thief2 Gold missions. In doing so,

    -None of LGS' original concepts were used.
    -There is no attempt to fit this mission into the Thief 2 timeline.
    -The setting is a college/university, but instead of using the actual college mission that was available, the museum mission was used.
    -The main character is not Garrett.
    -Large portions of the original LGS base mission were rebuilt.

    So basically, this mission has nothing to do with Thief 2 Gold, yet it is named The Golden Project, hinting that it somehow is connected to Thief 2 Gold.

    I'm not saying the mission isn't good or shouldn't have been released, I just don't understand why it's being connected to Thief 2 Gold, or even why one of the unreleased Thief 2 Gold missions was even used as a base.

    I can only hope that if another mission is released using the Slums mission ( or others), it has a little more connection to what LGS intended for Thief 2 Gold in the first place. I apologize if this all sounds harsh, but when Digi released these missions a few years back, it was a real gift to the community, and I don't think this is what anyone had in mind for a final product.

  7. #32
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2005
    Location: Bulgaria
    Hi, Brethren...

    You said it right - this mission is not Thief II Gold anymore. It's different. None of the original concepts were used. That's why I decided to change the name. But how would people know this mission is based on one of the unfinished OMs? There had to be a hint somehow - "The Golden Project" looked appropriate to me. But the community will decide if it's a good name. I could have released it as "The Golden FM", "Golden Fan Mission", "Golden Community Project. It just had to include the word "gold" or a derivative.

    As for the last one:

    I apologize if this all sounds harsh, but when Digi released these missions a few years back, it was a real gift to the community, and I don't think this is what anyone had in mind for a final product.
    Do you wish to say that DromEdders have no right to remake these missions according to their own interpretation and they have to follow strictly the original concept of LGS or the original team ( http://thiefmissions.com/thief2gold/missions.htm )?
    Did you expect something else?

    -Large portions of the original LGS base mission were rebuilt.
    This is quite true. There's only one room kept intact - the closet without a door (next to the chapel).

    And one final question: Did you enjoy the mission and did you like it?

  8. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Bulgarian_Taffer View Post
    Do you wish to say that DromEdders have no right to remake these missions according to their own interpretation and they have to follow strictly the original concept of LGS or the original team ( http://thiefmissions.com/thief2gold/missions.htm )?
    Did you expect something else?

    This is quite true. There's only one room kept intact - the closet without a door (next to the chapel).

    And one final question: Did you enjoy the mission and did you like it?
    When Digi released these missions a few years back from one of the original LGS developers, the intention was for someone to finish the missions off the way they were intended to be. Other than that, I can't see any reason to use one of the missions as a base. You certainly have the right to do it, but why bother if you're just going to use it for something completely unrelated (especially if all that is left of the original base mission is a closet!)? It's interesting that you say "according to their own interpretation" when you really haven't tried to interpret anything, at least in regards to the original T2 Gold project. So yes, I expected something else, and I'm sure I'm not alone here.

    As far as whether I enjoyed the mission, that's irrelevant to the conversation really, but I'm still playing it. I only went in briefly to look around, and was surprised to see the real college mission wasn't even used.

  9. #34
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2005
    Location: Bulgaria
    Look. It was stated from the very beginning that the mission I'm going to create will be very, very different:

    http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthrea...license&page=8

    I have my own vision for the College and I'm going to follow it. So don't expect a Looking Glass type mission. And most definitely, my mission will not be a daylight mission.
    After I wrote that nobody complained. You started to complain after I released the mission.

    Then I wrote:

    Thus, I don't think that "Thief Gold Fan Mission Project" is a suitable name anymore.
    This is why I changed the name to "Thief: The Golden Project. Mission 1: First City College".

    And finally I asked if there are any legal issues:

    There are none. If you read the dromed license agreement, it basically states that Looking Glass Studios owns your FMs
    After I read that, I decided I have the right to do so. Nobody complained. Yes, there was a mistake - I downloaded the Museum mission and somehow used this one as a base. The mistake was discovered later, but even now there are exhibition rooms: Look at the Hammerite section, The section with Masks and the section with the Robot parts.

    After all, I'm amazed that you, Brethren, complain about this. I'm also sorry to be too harsh, but you were the one who left the project early, then rejoined, then took the project in your own hands, then nothing happened. Months, if not years have passed since then. I wonder if you have the right to judge me for what I did. Plus, I remember very well that you offered your help with writing the plot. It was March or April. Then you disappeared without a trace.

    I appreciate greatly the criticism of intruder, Staith Mia and the others who briefly said what they didn't like in the mission. I appreciate also the praise of the other people. As for the ones that joined and after a few days flaked out - your criticism has no credibility. Sorry.
    Last edited by Bulgarian_Taffer; 9th Jul 2009 at 13:02.

  10. #35
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: cesspool
    From the very beginning it was pretty obvious one shouldn't expect quality of, let's say, Digital Nightfall's or Purah's teams from the project. Bulgarian Taffer was one of the very few persons who wanted to realize the project, it's unfair to criticize him as if got exclusive rights for it and didn't keep his word. No one objects against creating another FM based on the assets, more true to original etc.

  11. #36
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2005
    Location: Bulgaria
    as if got exclusive rights for it and didn't keep his word.
    ... exactly. There could be 10, 15, 20 more FMs based on the unfinished OMs.

    As for the quality - the COSAS team does a great job, but years pass before we see the FMs. Many, many years. Same goes with projects like the Hammerite Imperium, DrK FMs. But nobody believes both projects will be completed anytime soon, if not at all?

    This mission has been completed in four months. I think it's the best that can be acheived during this time (minus real life, minus exams, minus graduation).

  12. #37
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2008
    Location: in your second eyelids
    Well, I agree - nice achievement in 4 months.
    If real life rushed you and You couldn't have spared another month or so for it, then good job.

    CoSaS and DrKs missions did have a better quality, naturally, but they also took a longer time to develop. This was a fairly straightforward, not so hard mission. Maybe that was one of the elements that fun requires (no frustrations), so, um, yeah, I stand by what I said in my first reply - it was fun for me and reminded a bit of an OM (though the College idea itself didn't).

    Now I feel weird saying these things, since I've made nothing myself. Maybe I should stay quiet.

  13. #38
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2005
    Location: Bulgaria
    Thanks, friend.

    As I said - I'm open to both positive AND negative criticism.

    But I can't accept negative criticism for these who entered the project with great enthusiasm just to leave it later without a trace. They just don't have the moral right to do so. The missions were released in 2006, yet my FM is the first based on T2G that came out. Three years are very much for a game community!

    As for my team - they may not be professionals, but they were very enthusiastic about the FM. I'll keep them as much as possible, because they have passion in their hearts and love the series.

  14. #39
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2007
    Location: Germany
    @Thor02:
    All FM creators have a real life with school, exams, a job, family, friends and partners they want to spend time with

    And why shouldn't you be able to "judge" missions only because you didn't build one yourself? As long as you give reasons and say it in an appropriate way, there shouldn't be any problems.

  15. #40
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2008
    Location: Estonia
    Being a longtime lurker, but not really busy poster :P, i did not want to say anything at first. It is obvious, that you mean well, and are a good dromeder to boot, but honestly having even a hint of this mission being a progeny of lgs thief 2 gold somehow screams "wrong" to me and lots of others as i now see. It is as far from negative critique as you can get, really. It is a direct result of what you are suggesting with the project name.

  16. #41
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2005
    Location: Bulgaria
    Quote Originally Posted by Tolknaz View Post
    Being a longtime lurker, but not really busy poster :P, i did not want to say anything at first. It is obvious, that you mean well, and are a good dromeder to boot, but honestly having even a hint of this mission being a progeny of lgs thief 2 gold somehow screams "wrong" to me and lots of others as i now see. It is as far from negative critique as you can get, really. It is a direct result of what you are suggesting with the project name.
    OK, I get this. I'll take the first part as a compliment (yes, really, it is).

    I can understand why it screams wrong to you. I'm a different person, I'm not LGS and this is my own mission, thought based on Thief II Gold. Yet, there are a lot of innovations - we have custom textures, custom objects. But I believe it's for good.

    I really hope to see comments of this type: (I liked the mission... I didn't like the mission.) I see you think I'm a good dromeder, but this doesn't mean the final product is good as a whole.

  17. #42
    Member
    Registered: May 2008
    People are taking "based on a thief 2 gold mission" far too seriously. It started out as one thing and morphed into another - thats happened tons of times over the course of FM releases. Lighten up. No one is trying to take a piss on the legacy of LGS, a mission was released that was inspired by something else - happens all the time.

    Edited to make my point in less words.
    Last edited by SneakyJack; 9th Jul 2009 at 18:30.

  18. #43
    Summer Vacation Contest Winner 2010
    Registered: Sep 2003
    Location: PacificNorthWest...Near Forks
    Right on SneakyJack! This is an excellent endeavor and I know that Bulgarian_Taffer did an outstanding job on this Idea, and on the entire fm.

    He took something that was nothing. He made it into something great for everyone to enjoy. The only cost to the Taffers playing it, is their own time which will never come close to the work and time Bulgarian_Taffer has put into
    it.


    It was made from a Good Heart, and is a Gift to the Community!


    Long Live Thief and all of the Fm Authors!
    Last edited by darthsLair; 9th Jul 2009 at 18:34. Reason: my formatting again

  19. #44
    Member
    Registered: May 2002
    Location: The Netherlands
    HEAR HEAR !!!!

    Thor02: What do you mean by this: ... in the garden ....JUST a Dewdrop in there ?

    Stath MIA: It never happened to me, but I believe you.

    Gloria Creep
    There're angels who playThief and angels who don't ........ both go to heaven ............
    Dare to join .............

  20. #45
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2008
    Location: in your second eyelids
    Quote Originally Posted by Gloria Creep View Post
    Thor02: What do you mean by this: ... in the garden ....JUST a Dewdrop in there ?

    Gloria Creep
    Uh, oh, uh... um... uh.... *hides in the shadows, gets on some rafters and slowly sneaks away*

  21. #46
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2009
    Location: Atlantis
    Quote Originally Posted by SneakyJack View Post
    People are taking "based on a thief 2 gold mission" far too seriously. It started out as one thing and morphed into another - thats happened tons of times over the course of FM releases. Lighten up. No one is trying to take a piss on the legacy of LGS, a mission was released that was inspired by something else - happens all the time.

    Edited to make my point in less words.
    Agreed wholeheartedly. This FM is not now, nor could ever be, exactly the way LGS intended it to be. B_T used the idea as a base and then built his own mission around it. Brethren, if you really are as offended about it as you say you are then I encourage you to start your own Thief 2 Gold project and show us all how you think it should be, because up to this point B_T is the only one who has delivered.

  22. #47
    Member
    Registered: Jun 1999
    Location: Belgium
    Brethren, if you really are as offended about it as you say you are then I encourage you to start your own Thief 2 Gold project and show us all how you think it should be, because up to this point B_T is the only one who has delivered.
    Nothing more to say...

  23. #48
    Keeper of FMs
    Registered: Oct 2004
    Location: Meraux, LA

  24. #49
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2006
    Location: Great. Now I can't get back in
    As far as the latter discussion goes, IMO SneakyJack, darthslair & Stath MIA made some great points - & better than I could have.

    So, back to the actual FM: in "critical mode" I would say that levels of detail & ornamentation were a bit low & left the building feeling a bit empty & unlived in, whilst the 'Forbidden Area' was a bit anti-climactic - not as threatening or dangerous as I was expecting. And secret areas & exploring nooks & crannies is always welcome.
    I'm not a Dromeder, but had the impression that these things could be put down, partly or wholly, to a relative lack of time - & that you would have liked to have done more with it.

    Anyway, I very much enjoyed playing the mission & recommend it. Particularly liked the idea of different reactions from different AI; IMO, a facet of mission design that could be used more often.

    Overall, I'd very much like to see you, B_T, make more missions in this series - just think it'd be better all round if you were able to devote more time to them. (then again, I guess most designers would like more time...& then more again )

    Thanx very much for this FM

  25. #50
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2008
    Location: Bulgaria,Burgas
    The mission was good.It had some flaws,but it couldn't be exactly as LGS was planing to make it.For me it's a dream to make such mission.

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