TTLG|Thief|Bioshock|System Shock|Deus Ex|Mobile
Page 63 of 206 FirstFirst ... 1318232833384348535859606162636465666768737883889398103108113163 ... LastLast
Results 1,551 to 1,575 of 5134

Thread: What have you watched lately?

  1. #1551
    verbose douchebag
    Registered: Apr 2002
    Location: Lyon, France
    Re GoT, if you read the books, you'll note that it's something of a theme. It's not that Martin takes any kind of glee in killing of characters with popular arcs, it's more that he doesn't take liberties with realistic outcomes of their cumulative actions.
    The cool thing about the TV series though is that they have changed a lot from the books, so I'm not even 100% sure who you mean if you are referring to S3E4.

  2. #1552
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Switzerland
    Quote Originally Posted by Subjective Effect View Post
    Never heard of it. Is it about the historical figure or the Lecter character?
    It's Hannibal Lecter. When I first heard of it, I thought, "Yup, that dead horse definitely needs flogging!" I'm surprised by how much it doesn't feel like another trip to that old well, though. The cast is great, with Mads Mikkelsen (of Casino Royale fame) as Lecter. It's surprisingly sedate and intellectual, effectively unsettling and has a lot of potential. Not sure whether it'll be extended beyond S1; it's not doing all that well in the States, but apparently it sold like mad in the rest of the world.

    I'm watching Game of Thrones and still loving (and being shocked by!) it. Love the unpredictability; even Walking Dead isn't this happy with offing main characters.
    I also like it a lot, but I do think the structure is one of its weaknesses. It's somewhat frustrating to have episode after episode of a couple of minutes per storyline; some progress just fine, but others feel like they're treading water. Still, definitely one of my favourites on TV at the moment.

  3. #1553
    Taking the Death Toll
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Location: they/them mayhem
    So what's with that show's preoccupation with rape and incest, anyway?

  4. #1554
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Switzerland
    Quote Originally Posted by dethtoll View Post
    So what's with that show's preoccupation with rape and incest, anyway?
    No more than the times and cultures it's based on.

  5. #1555
    Taking the Death Toll
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Location: they/them mayhem
    Google "false equivalency." It's a fantasy setting. It's not real. And there's plenty of other European fantasy settings that don't have rape.

  6. #1556
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Switzerland
    Quote Originally Posted by dethtoll View Post
    Google "false equivalency." It's a fantasy setting. It's not real. And there's plenty of other European fantasy settings that don't have rape.
    So, what are you saying? You're taking issue with the series (whether the novels or the TV series) because it does something differently from plenty of other European fantasy settings? I.e. you're criticising the series for not being generic enough?

    Anyway, from what I know GRRM has heavily based his books on the War of Roses, so take your "false equivalency" and shove it up your wazoo, because it's not an argument. Yes, it's a fantasy series, but it's also modelled on a historical period, and it aims for a realism that other fantasy series usually forgo - which means that rape and incest have a legitimate place in Game of Thrones. If there's an issue, it wouldn't be in that these topics are a part of Game of Thrones but how they're used, and you haven't said anything about that.

  7. #1557
    verbose douchebag
    Registered: Apr 2002
    Location: Lyon, France
    It has murder too.
    Some theft also.
    It is fiction.
    Are you saying that rape is off limits for fiction and that only murder and torture are allowed?

  8. #1558
    Taking the Death Toll
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Location: they/them mayhem
    Okay, faetal, your argument is a pile of bunk.

    First: "It is fiction." So you're saying we shouldn't write about it, discuss it, criticize it, or analyze fiction? Then what the fuck are college literature departments for?

    Second: Here's the thing about rape in fiction. Sure, it can and does get covered -- well, I hate to use the term "tastefully" here so I'll just replace it with "properly." But by and large it really isn't. Hell, half the time it's used as a springboard for male characters to jump into action and beat up the rapist, so they can be heroes, and the victim -- i.e. the person who the rape was done to -- tends to be forgotten. The thing about theft and murder is that those are generally treated as catch-all crimes, and indeed many characters meant to be "good" will steal and kill. (Catwoman, anyone? She's a master thief and totally put one in Black Mask's dome, not that he didn't have it coming, but she's nominally one of the "good guys" and has relatively high moral standards.) Rape meanwhile tends to be used as a writer's shortcut to portray a character as "evil." It's like, hey, this guy done raped someone, OBVIOUS BAD GUY. This unfortunately has the effect of trivializing the reality of rape, that around 80% of rape victims are raped by people who are known to them, people whom they should be able to feel safe around. Which leads me into a broader point about why rape is and should be considered worse than murder: You can't suffer when you're dead. Many rape victims struggle with depression and pain for years.

    I'm criticizing the series for its preoccupation with rape. The sheer frequency of rape or implications of rape or even discussion of rape is off-putting, both in the book and the show. The more serious failings are in the books -- GRRM approaches rape with either a gleeful relish or casual disregard; but that doesn't excuse the show from some very serious problems in its portrayal of women, with a constant dialogue of rape even when the word is not used, and even the consensual sex scenes have a sense of subjugation to them. To use rape to further a plot line is one thing, and even then should be handled with care. To string the plot along with a series of violent incidents and threats against women is entirely another. It points to a deficiency in how women are viewed. Rape is such a common trope because of a failure to see women as human beings. The majority of geek media creators are male, and have created a self-perpetuating loop in which women are little more than tragic vaginas and their rape and/or murder is a plot device to drive the (usually male) hero into action. This influences a new generation of geek media creators who, in the absence of someone stepping back and going "hmm, no, that's bullshit," are going to do the exact same thing.

    It's kind of mind-boggling that you guys're telling me that GoT's preoccupation with rape somehow is a plus because it's... less generic? Really? Really? There's a million and one ways to make fantasy less generic, is frequent rape really necessary?

  9. #1559
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2002
    Location: London / London / London
    Mate, it sounds like you have a slight preoccupation with rape to be honest. Please, examples, because I've read the books, I've seen it on the TV, and I'm somehow not getting the same rape-a-thon you're getting. You sound like Richard Littlejohn and homosexuals.

  10. #1560
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    I'm up to speed on the TV show and I don't even know what you are on about. There is one rape in the first series and then... a threat of it in the 3rd.

    And I really don't know where you are getting rapey ideas from the other sex scenes. Some of them are with prostitutes but that's not the same thing.
    Telepathy is not mind reading. It is the direct linking... ...of nervous systems... ...separated by space.

  11. #1561
    Taking the Death Toll
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Location: they/them mayhem
    The mobs attack Joffrey and the kingsguard in King's Landing, Sansa gets separated from them and chased by a bunch of dudes who look like they're about to rape her before someone else shows up.

    It's talked about in the book of the possibility of Brienne being raped by hers/Jaime's captors. In the show he talks them out of doing so.

    Daenerys stops her khalasar from raping women in a village they're sacking or whatever. Also, her first time with Drogo is seen by a lot of people as rape -- at least the TV version. That was a change from the far more consensual book version.

    Lollys Stokeworth was gangraped during the mob attack in the second book. I remember they found her walking along Sowbelly Road naked after the fact. She eventually gives birth to a bastard with the last name Tanner. As in the tanning shop where it all happened.

    Oh, and in book three it's also revealed that Tysha (Tyrion's wife) wasn't a whore and was in fact raped by all of Tywin's men who had sex with her and Tyrion himself. Yes, I understand there's an argument to be made that she would have been raped even if she had been a whore, but that's not the way the book presents it. It's rape either way.

    I could come up with more, but...

    And, yeah, there's a real strong sense of subjugation even to the consensual scenes. Just because you dudes don't see it doesn't mean I'm "preoccupied with rape" (fuck you) or that it can't be interpreted that way.

    Please, please, please do not get beardy and defensive over this. A lot of shit in both the book and the show can and will be interpreted as rape because much of it is skeevy at best. Deal with it. Calling a work out for having questionable elements is not a blanket condemnation of that work and you don't need to start scrambling over each other to tell me how wrong I am.

  12. #1562
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2002
    Location: London / London / London
    Dude, that's one actual domestic rape (the danerys stuff), some off camera shit, and some attempts. In a series that's already 24 hour-long episodes and fuck knows how many thousand pages, has a million characters, and is set in the middle of a medieval fucking war with a unusually unromantic focus on the brutality of that. It's not 'preoccupied' with rape. It's longer than the bible. I could make a good case that it's preoccupied with ham. If you read the books, watched the series, and sat back afterwards thinking 'oh my god I can't believe the constant raping I am sickened' then you have an unhealthy cherry-picking ability I thankfully lack.

    I'm not disputing that you can interpret anything you fucking like as rape. Although I do wonder why.

  13. #1563
    Taking the Death Toll
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Location: they/them mayhem
    Wow.

    Anyone else want to try? Maybe without personal insults, that would be pretty sweet.

  14. #1564
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2002
    Location: London / London / London
    what personal insults?

  15. #1565
    Taking the Death Toll
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Location: they/them mayhem
    You attacked my viewpoint by turning it into some kind of referendum on me like I'm some kind of rape-obsessed weirdo, and you equated my viewpoint with homophobia. How is this not insulting? I am not the only one who has noticed the skeevy stuff in the series, and just because you disagree with me doesn't mean you're not wrong.

  16. #1566
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2004
    I kind of figured the amount of rape that goes on in that show is just another way to show just how much their world sucks for everybody. Rape is just another method to make the world even shittier, and it's one they probably use because it's one of the few fictional horrors people still respond to.

  17. #1567
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2004
    I don't condone or make excuses for rape, but frankly, I'm glad GoT is as sex-centric as it is, because it actually makes it more genuine. Yes, it is fantasy and fiction, but as been pointed out, it IS based on medieval times and preoccupation with sex, incest and rape were big back then (not that modern society is much different). It's refreshing to see a show bold enough to portray it more to what it was/would be like in this kind of setting instead of pussyfooting because it's "Taboo"

    But I have not seen ANY season 3 so cant account for that (and spare me the spoilers from there please!)

  18. #1568
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Switzerland
    Quote Originally Posted by dethtoll View Post
    I'm criticizing the series for its preoccupation with rape. The sheer frequency of rape or implications of rape or even discussion of rape is off-putting, both in the book and the show. The more serious failings are in the books -- GRRM approaches rape with either a gleeful relish or casual disregard; but that doesn't excuse the show from some very serious problems in its portrayal of women, with a constant dialogue of rape even when the word is not used, and even the consensual sex scenes have a sense of subjugation to them. To use rape to further a plot line is one thing, and even then should be handled with care. To string the plot along with a series of violent incidents and threats against women is entirely another. It points to a deficiency in how women are viewed. Rape is such a common trope because of a failure to see women as human beings. The majority of geek media creators are male, and have created a self-perpetuating loop in which women are little more than tragic vaginas and their rape and/or murder is a plot device to drive the (usually male) hero into action. This influences a new generation of geek media creators who, in the absence of someone stepping back and going "hmm, no, that's bullshit," are going to do the exact same thing.
    I agree with this in the abstract (as in, this is something that can and does happen), but I don't particularly see it with the TV series, which IMO doesn't "use rape to further a plot" in a cheap, easy way, nor do I think the show has "some very serious problems in its portrayal of women". In fact, I'd say that it does pretty damn well in terms of presenting well-rounded, complex, and often strong female characters.

  19. #1569
    Level 10,000 achieved
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Finland
    Quote Originally Posted by Phatose View Post
    I kind of figured the amount of rape that goes on in that show is just another way to show just how much their world sucks for everybody. Rape is just another method to make the world even shittier, and it's one they probably use because it's one of the few fictional horrors people still respond to.
    ^^^
    This. Of course it's supposed to be upsetting, and make you worry for the female characters in the story. Especially it made me worry for Aria when she joins the boys marching up to The Wall.

    Quote Originally Posted by dethtoll View Post
    Hell, half the time it's used as a springboard for male characters to jump into action and beat up the rapist, so they can be heroes, and the victim -- i.e. the person who the rape was done to -- tends to be forgotten. [...] Rape meanwhile tends to be used as a writer's shortcut to portray a character as "evil." It's like, hey, this guy done raped someone, OBVIOUS BAD GUY.
    Sound more like you're describing MGS3 than GoT. It's never shown but it's implied that Volgin is raping Sokolov's wife. Does that woman even have any speaking lines? I'm only halfway through the game yet but so far she's clearly only in the game so Volgin can have someone to rape and it'll be clear to the players that he's a bad guy.

  20. #1570
    Taking the Death Toll
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Location: they/them mayhem
    ... wow

    henke i'm going to spoil the game for you a little bit

    sokolov's wife is eva undercover

    i mean i would've thought that was obvious

  21. #1571
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    I was thinking; if you did a GoT marathon you might find the rape stuff more noticeable. I'd forgotten about the Stanza bit for example.
    Telepathy is not mind reading. It is the direct linking... ...of nervous systems... ...separated by space.

  22. #1572
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2002
    Location: London / London / London
    Quote Originally Posted by dethtoll View Post
    You equated my viewpoint with homophobia.
    That wasn't my point. You ever read Richard Littlejohn? All it takes is for a show, any show, or anything actually to have a gay character (or even mention the possibility of a gay character tbh) before he get's all excited and starts going on about the 'homosexual agenda'. My point was that you seem to have a similar sensitivity to rape and to some extent sexuality in general.

    BUT, I do agree with you that the sex scenes in the GoT book series are super fucking gross and should just be avoided. The one with fucking Sam Tarly and Gilly was eeerugh I dont actually want to think about it. GRRM should stick to the stabbing.

  23. #1573
    Level 10,000 achieved
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Finland

    re:MGS3

    Deth, I don't wanna spoil the story for myself, so if something happens later on that means it doesn't fall into exactly the kind of trope you're raging against I'll just have to take your word for it.

  24. #1574
    verbose douchebag
    Registered: Apr 2002
    Location: Lyon, France
    Making fiction in a setting which accentuates rife brutality and leaving out rape would be prudish sanitizing and condescending to its audience.
    How is it (don't uncover if you haven't read the books) ok for Ramsay Bolton to torture Theon Greyjoy to the extent that he eschews his own identity, but not ok to depict the equally brutal use of sex as a weapon? The specific detail involving flensing the skin from his finger until he tried to bite it off and eventially begged for it to be removed, is nicer than the far less detailed instances of rape, yes? The books and show do not trivialise rape in any way - far from it. Rape is shown for what it is, a real risk which can happen during social turmoil in situations where the rule of law and civilised behaviour breaks down. It is shown to be a horrific act and, rarely for fiction, it is shown to be what it is - an act of violence and subjugation, not lust. It is depicted as horrifying - as something which would be more devastating than simple death.

    Some people can, despite knowing exactly how horrific rape is (along with torture, which isn't for some reason being held to the same scrutiny), look it in the eye and accept it as a narrative mechanism. I don't understand this fear that it is causing titillation or giving hordes of closet rapists the OK to go out and copy everything they see. It is saying that when safeguards are removed, the vicious attack the vulnerable and this takes a variety of forms. Sometimes this involves killing, sometimes torture, sometimes rape. It is set in a feudal system during war. Having the same proportion of rape as a 21st Century first-world country, while upping the incidence of murder, torture etc... is just treating rape as special, isn't justified unless we say "we're ok with murder & torture, but not rape".

    So this idea that people who complain about the use of rape in fiction are the only ones who get it and everyone else just isn't as super-sensitive and moral is risible and very condescending. Certainly don't get to thinking that anyone who disagrees with you has no personal experience with rape either. I've read the entire series to date and I can't remember thinking at any point that rape or subjugation of women was being used as anything other than illustrating the brutality of the backdrop. None of it was gratuitous, unless you are trying to say that the baseline is to pretend rape doesn't exist. It is completely in keeping with the various other forms of brutality which run throughout the story. I am also very sensitive to the subject for a number of reasons I am not going to expand on in an internet forum. But I do not think that the best thing for victims is to hush anyone who utters the word and isn't a doctor.

    Also, feel free to ignore the fact that the books have a very high number of very influential female characters, many of who treat men contemptuously or oppress / subject them to very painful or horrific ends (not all of these have appeared yet): Cersei, Daenerys, Arya, Yara (Asha in the book), Osha, Catelyn, Olenna, The Sand Snakes, Maege Mormont, Melisandre plus a few others I can't remember.

    So yes, I have read all of the books so far and not found them to be misogynistic, unless you don't have the ability to differentiate portrayal of misogyny from author misogyny, in which case, we can make a lot of stupid arguments for a great number of books. If you think this is because I am less sensitive to these things than you, then I'll want to hear some justification so that we can see if the argument is appropriately calibrated.

    The situation with Sansa and Brienne are both handled very realistically. A baying mob of the destitute would be very unlikely to just kill a stranded noble girl. These are people left to starve outside of the walls while those inside have nightly banquets. Of course that would be less horrifying, but Game of Thrones is a chronicle of the horrific. What isn't in the program but was in the book was Lollys Stokeworth being raped by a mob, which was essentially depicted as having destroyed her life and ruined her sanity. No detail was given - she was just a casualty of a riot and was given a lot more emphasis in the book as a victim than those who were killed.

    Perhaps some people would prefer a sanitized version of the books, one where everyone says "let's just back the fuck up here, this shit is wrong" in preference to raping, regardless of the situation or the character. That would be a fantastic way to treat the topic - as something which is never portrayed in fiction because it's too horrible, we'll just have to live with torture, genocide, war and oppression which are a bit more palatable for all of those people who can't abide rape.
    Last edited by faetal; 23rd Apr 2013 at 06:47.

  25. #1575
    Taking the Death Toll
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Location: they/them mayhem
    Quote Originally Posted by Vivian View Post
    My point was that you seem to have a similar sensitivity to rape and to some extent sexuality in general.
    I'd like to hear your explanation behind this.

    Quote Originally Posted by faetal View Post
    Making fiction in a setting which accentuates rife brutality and leaving out rape would be prudish sanitizing and condescending to its audience.
    Maybe, but does it need to be depicted so frequently and in such a super gross manner?

    unless you don't have the ability to differentiate portrayal of misogyny from author misogyny
    That's unfair. I'm the one who's constantly telling Social Justice Sallies portrayal != condonement. But there is something off about GRRM. Much the same way there's something off about David Lapham.

    ----

    Actually henke I'm going to tell you right now, unspoiled, because it was obvious to everyone from the getgo except you -- Sokolov's girlfriend is Eva undercover.
    Last edited by june gloom; 23rd Apr 2013 at 13:09.

Page 63 of 206 FirstFirst ... 1318232833384348535859606162636465666768737883889398103108113163 ... LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •