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Thread: Not fun anymore

  1. #1
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2007
    Location: Sweden

    Not fun anymore

    Ok, the fun time is up Me and my pals have a little party and played a "beer game". I did what you told me to A.Stahl Even before you wrote it. Anyway i lost it. I sent a PM to another member here and told him about some posts on that forum, earlier this day. They saw it. So, if i lost the game, i should do a thread here and nag about my bad "reviews" on the named forum. So i did. It was fun and not so fun at the same time, to read the answers. I have opinions about some things, but under normal circumstances i would never make a thread about it
    So, believe me or not, i did not want to write this. Have a nice weekend. I hope i making some sense. Over and out. Now i'm gonna leave this for the rest of the day/night.
    Last edited by Beltzer; 16th May 2020 at 09:26.

  2. #2
    L'architecte de Rocksbourg
    Registered: Nov 2005
    Location: Narbonne, France
    Your statement seems a bit contradictory. When you release something to the public, you expose yourself to criticism. If you care about what you do, you should take advantage of criticism to self-reflect and improve your design. If you do it just for fun, then why bother with criticism ? Just do the mission your way and ignore what people say, and keep having fun.

    While Psychosis was a bit harsh in his wording, Nicked seemed pretty fair to be honest. You may not like it, but you can't prevent people from saying what they think about your work. It's up to you to move on from it.

  3. #3
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2018
    Location: Ukraine
    Nobody tells you how you should do the missions. People just share their opinions about your missions. And some people don't like them. Moreover -- some people really don't like them.

    I'm so sick of reading things like this, so i'm not gonna make anymore FMs.
    So you gonna stop to do something just because some people (whom you even don't know) don't like the result? Pathetic 13-years-old-girl-tier drama.

    I don't want to read just good things.
    But that is exactly what you want.

    Good advice from the grumpiest FM player here: drink a beer or two, better five and let it all go. They don't like you FMs, you don't like their opinion, I don't like everything at all. Good!

  4. #4
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2007
    Location: Sweden
    I think a lot of many FMs. But i shut my mouth. They write shit over there and pat each other backs. Who could be most snide.

  5. #5
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2007
    Location: Sweden
    Quote Originally Posted by A.Stahl View Post
    But that is exactly what you want.
    No. I have read a lot of good criticism. I'm positive to that.
    And you call me pathetic, nice

  6. #6
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2017
    Location: France
    Drk is spot on, you can't have your cake and eat it too. You release something, people should be allowed to criticize it. Just because it's FREE doesn't mean it's somehow shielded from it. Maybe from here, but on other forums and in private people WILL have some sort of issue with it.

    My quote there might be harsh (though I forgot there's apparently some sort of nice quota I'm supposed to meet), but nicked's is possibly the most fair criticism I've ever seen. It's a bit of a farce to get upset about it, especially almost a year later, for... some reason? This is like what, the third time you tried to randomly appeal for pity and call out users publicly like this? It's a shitty move, IMO.

    And ultimately, why do you care? We're some no-name idiots online in different parts of the world that you will never, ever meet. I released Dewinder Manor and I knew from the start it was going to be a mess and get pooped on, and it was. I didn't care, I read what people wrote, reflected upon it, and tried to better myself down the line. Troubling Transitions still has a stupid amount of glaring issues, but again I'm going to take any criticism pointing them out and better myself. This is part of a creative process, I see no issues with it myself. If you want to ignore it and just release whatever you want when you want, no one will stop you, just like you can't stop people from giving their OPINIONS on something. You can be mad at me, that's fine (I still stand by what I said, it was from the heart), but being mad at that completely genuine and nice post from nicked is just silly.

  7. #7
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2007
    Location: Sweden
    OK, i'm not that upset on nicked, just because he criticized it about that it just had one way it. That's why i post what he wrote. But you... your post was unnecessary, did you feel good when you wrote it? Did you do it so the other members would agree with you?
    "appeal for pity"? NO NO, far from it. If people talk behind my back... I think you are a coward, sitting on that forum, where i'm not a member, and talk about my work in that way. Why don't you write it to me instead?
    But OK, i'm a silly 13th. I did what you did. I just wrote it from my heart
    Last edited by Beltzer; 16th May 2020 at 08:35.

  8. #8
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2007
    Location: Sweden
    Quote Originally Posted by Psych0sis View Post
    And ultimately, why do you care? We're some no-name idiots online in different parts of the world that you will never, ever meet.
    ...i could say the same thing. Why do you care what i'm writing?

  9. #9
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2017
    Location: France
    ok

  10. #10
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2011
    Beltzer, I can only say that it was a pleasure to beta test your The Sister mission, I think it's a top notch mission and it is in my personal top 50ish of all time, I posted it earlier today: https://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthre...=1#post2447526

    So I hope you keep making them, but if not, you have built your legacy

  11. #11
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2007
    Location: Sweden
    OK, read the first post, and have a nice day, bye for now
    Thanks for the warming words zajazd

  12. #12
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2019
    Location: Restaurant at end of universe
    The only thing i didn't like about the Sister was 2 areas that i didn't know i could rope arrow because they were coloured white instead of brown. Those were the only 2 places i couldn't figure out. I normally only criticize FM's that i like not the ones i don't like. The one's i don't like i usually don't say anything at all. This may sound odd but I'm weird. I thought for a while that FM's should have a rating system of easy to difficult. With a vote scheme on # of players that finished the mission and # that didn't finish and why. After a while i thought it could be a bad idea because some FM's creators may just quit making missions all together. I suppose it would have to be up to the FM creator whether to have that voting in their post announcement or not.

    You can usually tell how many people are playing a FM by how many post are in the mission announcement/comment thread. There is one forum I'm on that shows how many 'views' a thread has regardless whether there is a reply or not. I noticed that there could be 50 people viewing 'the thief missions' category at a certain time and i come back 2 hours later and no one has posted a reply. They have to be looking at something but not replying. A 'viewed post' would help in seeing how many people are playing the missions.

    Edit: Sorry, it was The Seven Sisters i was playing that had the colour problem.
    Last edited by howeird; 16th May 2020 at 11:04. Reason: Wrong FM

  13. #13
    Member
    Registered: May 2001
    Location: Boston MA
    The best way to improve it to receive honest feedback from a qualified source. As long as it is done in a constructive way and not mean spirited, it is helpful. I take it from the source.

    Also, everyone had a different playing style which means a player may or may not enjoy your mission. I do standard vanilla missions with all stock resources. If you want missions with new custom object/textures etc., my missions would not fit that category. On the other hand, I don’t like missions with nearly impossible puzzles.

    All post should be respectful. That is the golden rule to me.

  14. #14
    Desperately Dodgy Moderator
    Registered: Nov 2001
    Location: France
    Agreed, bbb. Keep the posts respectful in here. A.Stahl, you crossed the line a bit with your comment, so consider this a warning.

  15. #15
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2005
    Location: Germany
    Quote Originally Posted by DrK View Post
    Your statement seems a bit contradictory. When you release something to the public, you expose yourself to criticism. If you care about what you do, you should take advantage of criticism to self-reflect and improve your design. If you do it just for fun, then why bother with criticism ? Just do the mission your way and ignore what people say, and keep having fun.

    While Psychosis was a bit harsh in his wording, Nicked seemed pretty fair to be honest. You may not like it, but you can't prevent people from saying what they think about your work. It's up to you to move on from it.
    I'm sorry but I missed this. Which FM are you referring to?

  16. #16
    L'architecte de Rocksbourg
    Registered: Nov 2005
    Location: Narbonne, France
    He was complaining about negative reviews he got for his mission The Sister, but he edited his original message so now it doesn't make much sense.

  17. #17
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2002
    Location: Texas
    Sounds like he played a drinking game with friends and lost. The penalty was this thread and he really didn't want to do it. But because he lost he had to do it. So all this happened because he lost a drinking game. I don't think I would play any more of those drinking games. Not worth the trouble caused.

  18. #18
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2010
    Location: Switzerland
    Hey Beltzer,

    I also was part of the beta of The Sister and yeah, besides the outstanding visuals it had alot of flaws in gameplay, even after the things you fixed from the beta feedback. If you would have released it with the original (beta) the criticism would have been way worse. i know that you listen to criticism but I think for you the problem is something else.

    First, different people have different talents, yours (considering FMs) is clearly the architecture, the beauty etc. You are great with that. But what I recognized during the beta process that with things like gameplay etc., yes you listen and try to change/fix things but all in all you seem to be fine even if it's not "perfect". Just take my Garrett voice acting I did for you, it is not very good, but you didn't have a vision and gave me no directions so I worked with what I had, I even improved some of the texts you sent me, and no matter what I sent you, you were fine with it. Same for the story, I won't tell how your first approach for combinig the story and gameplay to make sense was, but there were alot of holes in it and I know that the beta testers did their best to help you fixing it. And it's still not really good but way better than your first go.

    What I see here is...yes you listen to critcism, you really do, but you don't seem to overcome the criticism, you only do things so far what people told you. The other thing is, and DrK and Psych0sis already made that clear, if you do this for you and for fun, do it! but to open up a thread afterward about criticism that is not right in your own opinion doesn't add up. Of course we all want to release something and love to hear how the community freaks out over the thing, but that's not how it works (and I'm aware that you don't expect that).

    I totally agree that words like "shitty" etc. are totally not correct but even if someone comes with a very straight to the point criticism that is maybe not positive but still correct in the words etc. it seems like in this forum this is already too much. And as you, beltzer, said, you don't criticise missions you don't like, I can relate to that, but not because I want to be nice, no because I know in this forum negative/straight criticism often is seen as disrespect. And that kills some interesting discussions and also gives some authors the feeling that their flaws in missions (that have been adressed over years and they still repeat) are ok, because as soon as someone comes up with a negative critcism user are attacking that person for being mean and too harsh etc. and then it seems that just a really small really mean/negative group of people have this opinion, but in reality there are many many more but they don't want to be criticised for their criticism because it's annoying and totally loses the focus.

    Every author can be seen as an artist and you guys put alot of work into those missions, and yes, we are and can be very grateful that there are still so many of you around to feed us with new stuff for our alltime favorite game but there is one problem. This art is very technical so there are clear solutions to some things. You can say, yes this was my decisions as an artist but if for the player the decision doesn't add up, but there are clear technical ways and existing examples that it could be done in a more satisfying way for the player, this will be brought up or at least it should be. So create missions for fun, be proud and keep them to yourself or release them in public, but then you have to expect different opinions, even if they are not to your likings. I can see your point but your arguments are pretty thin.
    Last edited by Supremcee; 17th May 2020 at 03:09.
    Thief Podcast - Inside at Last Megathread >>> https://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149898

  19. #19
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2007
    Location: Sweden

    Very funny

    Yeah, no more party/drinking and TTLG at the same time. Promise

    Supremcee: Wow, that was A TEXT. You are right in many things. For the first, i'll agree that i'm better at the visual and not so good in gameplay and story. Therefore i have thought about ask if someone want to help me with the story and gameplay tips.
    My self confidence isn't that good when it comes to gameplay and such things, so that's because i maybe listen too much on the beta testers.

    With that said, don't take this thread too seriously. As i said, i wasn't sober, and it was just a silly joke. But, it was fun to see what some people think, how they expressed theme-self. Now i know where they stand I listen to the criticism, i'll take it in. Sometimes not so fun, but i really don't care so much. I know that can make FMs, many could not. I'm not perfect, far from it.
    Have a nice day, i haven't.

  20. #20
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2012
    Location: Moscow, Russia
    The Sister is a very good mission with a cozy atmospheric design which I love. But the gameplay in the black area was terrible. It didn’t make any sense, you had to have luck or patience to endure it. Unfortunately I didn’t have either one or the other.
    There are good ideas, but there are bad ones, something does not always work out. If you have the courage to do some kind of experiment, be prepared for an attack by the players.

    Please continue to create your missions. I don’t know what percentage of players like or dislike them, but many like them. Even if there are bad ideas there, it still has a right to exist. I have been convinced of this over the years that I played your missions.

  21. #21
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2007
    Location: Sweden
    Quote Originally Posted by Soul Tear View Post
    The Sister is a very good mission with a cozy atmospheric design which I love. But the gameplay in the black area was terrible. It didn’t make any sense, you had to have luck or patience to endure it. Unfortunately I didn’t have either one or the other.
    There are good ideas, but there are bad ones, something does not always work out. If you have the courage to do some kind of experiment, be prepared for an attack by the players.

    Please continue to create your missions. I don’t know what percentage of players like or dislike them, but many like them. Even if there are bad ideas there, it still has a right to exist. I have been convinced of this over the years that I played your missions.
    Thanks for the encouraging words. Maybe i'll continue with something, we'll see
    Yeah, about the black area, obviously people have different taste. Some testers loved that place, some didn't.

  22. #22
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2011
    Location: Montpellier, France
    Collaboration is a great way to improve skills you lack expertise in, in addition to having at least another pair of eyes on the same project which makes it more focused usually. If you want to improve your gameplay flow as well as your stories, I indeed recommend you find someone who is well versed in that. This would in turn help them with visuals/architecture if this is what they're lacking.

  23. #23
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2007
    Location: Sweden
    Quote Originally Posted by skacky View Post
    Collaboration is a great way to improve skills you lack expertise in, in addition to having at least another pair of eyes on the same project which makes it more focused usually. If you want to improve your gameplay flow as well as your stories, I indeed recommend you find someone who is well versed in that. This would in turn help them with visuals/architecture if this is what they're lacking.
    I guess you are right. If i start something new, i'll ask around.

  24. #24
    Member
    Registered: May 2001
    Location: Boston MA
    I said my peace in this thread but wanted to give a real example that recently happened which illustrates a point about respect.

    I received a private message from a member (who I won’t name publicly out of respect) criticizing my mission (Hammerite Skull) as unfinished. He implied I did not put enough work into the mission and asked if it was due to boredom or “laziness.” He also suggested I make (many) changes to the mission to make it better. Overall. I did not like the tone of the message and found his suggesting I was lazy, was unwarranted and disrespectful. If I were lazy, I would have stopped on page 2 of Komag’s famous tutorial, instead of completing (I think) 8 missions. I did not read the rest of his recommendations. A clear example of the message being lost due to an arrogant delivery by the messenger.

    Contrast that with some of the postings on TTLG where one player, for instance, pointed out 4 doors that were sized wrong. Point well taken and when I was fixing a texture problem, I was able to fix the doors at the same time. His comments were constructive and respectful and helpful.

    Maybe I am beating a dead horse, but messages like the one I described are exactly why we see recurring threads about criticism and why people are so polarized on this issue.

    bbb

  25. #25
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2007
    Location: Sweden
    I got such a PM too, after my latest release. Not that respectful.
    Last edited by nickie; 23rd May 2020 at 04:21. Reason: Removed unnecessary quote

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