S.T.A.L.K.E.R. 2

[Koki]

I`m not, but I`m a computer gamer. I shoot guns that fire zeroes and ones, slumped in a chair. I pretend that other zeroes and ones are my enemies. Hey, you do, too!

And it's my arguments that are devoid of sense? lawl.

[dexterward]

Here`s a black & white version: You consider airsoft/LARP players pathetic. They pretend. I point out that we (that`s the bit about computer gamers) do, too. Indoors, and without contact with a live human. They look bit silly, true, but we`re not far off. And the flaw in this logic is...?

Anyway, it`s been several times already when your response boils down to "wow" or "lawl". Hardly amusing. And so, in future our exchanges will be limited to two posts (max) on my side - I like pointless scraps/showing off my mighty rhetorical skillzzz, but not a fan of spamming. Unless you snap out of this "haha a new guy WTF lol" style, ain`t holding my breath thou.

Apologies to this - STALKER 2, after all -thread btw.

[Koki]

Here`s a black & white version: You consider airsoft/LARP players pathetic. They pretend. I point out that we (that`s the bit about computer gamers) do, too.

Yeah, and you're wrong.

[Ostriig]

Do you reckon that problem could be solved with all-new monsters and anomalies?

I don't think so, it either wouldn't be enough or it would be too much depending on how far you went, I'm having a hard time envisioning a middle ground for it. You just change around the monsters, anomalies, items, etc. and it will still feel very much like the Zone but with a cheap facelift. If you begin changing the locales, factions, events and so on you'll be putting quite a burden on your writers to come up with an acceptable natural evolution of the setting from the one that we're familiar with, or you'll be faced with questions on why the game's still "set" in the Zone at all. I really think that the physical, "geographical" setting of the game brings with it some inherent limitations because the fiction of the game is built with it as a central component.

Or is it the fundamental rules of the game world (monsters in the wilderness; random anomalies; some STALKERS like me but the military doesn't) that are getting tired?

Actually, that's exactly what I'd like kept, for the most part. To give a comparison, I love what Irrational are doing with Bioshock Infinite precisely because I feel it makes an implicit statement about what the essence of videogames is made of - not fiction (the setting, the characters, the events) but gameplay and overarching general artistic trend. You look at Infinityshock and, even as the places, story and the people are altogether new, it's very easy to see what it plays like and how it's built, you can recognise the Bioshock in there. It needn't be as bold in STALKER's case, I'd be perfectly content with a reasonable explanation for a new locale in the same universe, but I definitely think that the sensation of novelty and unfamiliarity is a big part of what made SoC such a powerful experience and that a new setting would go a long way to help that.

Now, let me clarify that I wouldn't have expected GSC to do something like that. And I don't say that in some begrudging way as if they were bad developers, I say it because it would have been a borderline insane expectation given the associated risks. Aside from the usual considerations - the uphill battle of convincing a publisher to stomach it in the face of possibly irritating existing fans or just run-of-the-mill fixing what's not broken - such a move would face further chances of alienating any fans who were attracted to it for the sake of its Eastern European setting in general or Chernobyl in particular. So no, I didn't expect GSC to go for new fiction nor do I fault them for not doing it. But it might've been really nice.

Then it's definitely time to lay off the pills. Or start taking the pills, whichever it is

The most representative instances I was thinking of were the ones in the Garbage, the bandit raid on the junkyard, the mutant charge on the gateway to Rostok, and the other mutant charge in Army Warehouses at the gate point to the Red Forest - events that get resolved one way or the other regardless of whether you intervene or not or are even anywhere in proximity. The question is whether it was all smoke and mirrors and these things were solved by a simple dice roll, or if it was that those NPCs were getting processed despite being as far as at the other end of the level.

[Koki]

The most representative instances I was thinking of were the ones in the Garbage, the bandit raid on the junkyard, the mutant charge on the gateway to Rostok, and the other mutant charge in Army Warehouses at the gate point to the Red Forest - events that get resolved one way or the other regardless of whether you intervene or not or are even anywhere in proximity.

Ironically, all these are scripted events that won't happen unless you are in proximity.

The question is whether it was all smoke and mirrors and these things were solved by a simple dice roll, or if it was that those NPCs were getting processed despite being as far as at the other end of the level.

A question which is easily answered by the fact that you never find any bodies at the place of supposed recent battle. Nothing in STALKER games happens without player being near it.

[Bakerman]

I really think that the physical, "geographical" setting of the game brings with it some inherent limitations because the fiction of the game is built with it as a central component.

Hypothetical: they take a leaf from Roadside Picnic and visit another Zone somewhere else in the world. In the book there were multiple zones; in the game they've somewhat dug themselves a hole by making Chernobyl the only zone, but imagine if they could come up with a justification for a new setting. Say somewhere in Asia (I'm not thinking of the Japan quakes at all when I say that - I just thought it might be a nice change from all European faces , and I'd really like to see GSC do a rural Asian environment, given how well they pulled off Chernobyl and surrounds). Does that take away from the game's essence?

I agree when you say the setting is a massive part of what makes those games special, and the Zone is kind of, at risk of sounding pretentious, a character in its own right. And as silly as it sounds, I'm not all that used to hearing Russian accents in games, especially friendly ones. I guess Chernobyl being a semi-local setting for GSC has something to do with why the game has such quality and fidelity of environment. But I'd really just like to see them try something a bit out of the box.

I feel it makes an implicit statement about what the essence of videogames is made of - not fiction (the setting, the characters, the events) but gameplay and overarching general artistic trend.

I wanted to pick this up, though it's not entirely relevant. I've always seen it kind of the other way - I wonder why BioShock infinite is called BioShock at all, given that it's got really nothing to do with the first games, except, as you say, gameplay and art direction (and possibly the sort of thematic content it deals with). I guess I take a more... traditional? approach to determining what a sequel to a story should entail - another story related to that story. The reverse, to me, seems like pitching a sequel to a black-and-white film in which none of the content is remotely related at all, except the new film is also in black-and-white.

From Wikipedia:

Though BioShock Infinite shares the same name with the other two games, Levine has stated that this is a new direction, and was coy to answer if they shared the same universe. Levine referred to the term BioShock not as a specific location or setting, but a concept conjoined by two ideas: the exploration of a fantastical setting, and the use of a large number of tools and abilities in creative manners to survive.

He seems to liken BioShock to a genre, which I don't think is helpful... it's similar in a way to the Final Fantasy pattern of games - they're JRPGs featuring pre-teens with spiky hair, without any sort of cohesive setting, but they all have a similar feel and gameplay. (I should disclaim that I've never played a Final Fantasy game, so if I've put my foot in it, or offended any fans of FF, I'm sorry. I'm just trying to make a point about franchises .)

To bring this back to the subject somewhat: could STALKER become something like that? Would it actually be beneficial? Regardless of whether they actually would do it.

[dexterward]

I should disclaim that I've never played a Final Fantasy game, so if I've put my foot in it, or offended any fans of FF, I'm sorry. I'm just trying to make a point about franchises

No offense taken It`s a pretty good example actually, but I`d risk saying quite special too - hard to put finger on, but somehow it`s less about mullah, more about the general vibe. COD could be another example, or indeed Bioshock - although insistence on keeping the same name in these franchises is clearly all about $$$ (so Levine can shut up about his "concept" - Bioshock: New Vegas?, etc)

But I don`t mind, as long as the games are good. I`m only halfway through first STALKER but understand they stuck with more less the same area throughout the sequels. Ok...perhaps it`s time the Zone expanded & covered some totally new area. Nothing wrong with that. Jump to some other country? Hmmm...risky, I think they know Eastern Europe best and should stick to it. (Though if they did something like that I`d approve...)

[Ostriig]

Ironically, all these are scripted events that won't happen unless you are in proximity.



A question which is easily answered by the fact that you never find any bodies at the place of supposed recent battle. Nothing in STALKER games happens without player being near it.

Fair enough, I seem to remember such events firing over great distances at times, but maybe those were just scripts misfiring or maybe indeed I'm misremembering. I don't recall finding bodies nor their pointed absence, I'll take your word for it. At any rate, if that's the case and STALKER handles AI like most other action games then I guess it's not a concern for streaming a persistent cell-based map.

Hypothetical: they take a leaf from Roadside Picnic and visit another Zone somewhere else in the world. [...] Does that take away from the game's essence?

I don't think it does, but I may well be in a minority. You called the Zone almost a character in its own right, and I don't think that's at all pretentious, it's spot on. I feel quite strongly that swapping out this character would be fine, recommendable even for the sake of restoring novelty to the series, but I can definitely imagine fans for whom this intensely Eastern European character that is STALKER's setting would be part of the game's inalienable "essence". I'd disagree with them, for the most part, but I can definitely see where they'd be coming from.

I wanted to pick this up, though it's not entirely relevant. I've always seen it kind of the other way - I wonder why BioShock infinite is called BioShock at all, given that it's got really nothing to do with the first games, except, as you say, gameplay and art direction (and possibly the sort of thematic content it deals with). I guess I take a more... traditional? approach to determining what a sequel to a story should entail - another story related to that story. The reverse, to me, seems like pitching a sequel to a black-and-white film in which none of the content is remotely related at all, except the new film is also in black-and-white.

Well, this kinda goes into the ludology vs. narratology debate that's been raging in game studies for a long time now, academics have been pissing on each other with glee over this subject. For my part narrative is hugely important, I think plot, setting, characters and all associated contexts can matter immensely, and I generally orient myself towards titles that provide me with an ample story to delve in. But if you want to boil it down to one or the other, I fall on the ludologist side of the barricade - I believe that gameplay's where it's ultimately at. Just to explain that with a bit of context, I feel that while STALKER's aesthetic assets and its narrative underpinnings play an important role in building its experience, its core factor lies in the structuring of its gameplay, brutal, dynamic and unpredictable.

But yes, you're right, we can probably do without going into a full-scale ludology/narratology argument in here. I'd be wary of applying film notions of genre and therefore, to some extent, sequel directly in either case, though, very different beasts and all that. And just as a minor note, while I understand contention on whether Infinityshock would class as a sequel to Bioshock (or whether that term is applicable to the Final Fantasy series), I don't think we can say Irrational are trying to define it as a game genre.

To bring this back to the subject somewhat: could STALKER become something like that? Would it actually be beneficial? Regardless of whether they actually would do it.

Yeah, I think it could and I think it would stand to benefit too, at least from an artistic point of view. But whether they'd be able to pull it off as well as they managed to do the Chernobyl Exclusion Zone I don't know. Like you said, was their likely familiarity with abandoned Communist-era industrial complexes pivotal in catching the flavour of the area or not? At the end of the day, after three games around Chernobyl, a breath of fresh air might be a nice effort. Hypothetically, of course.

[faetal]

It would be good to have vehicles in S2, but I wouldn't want to miss out on the hiking. As tedious as re-treading familiar territory is, the A-life meant that the same route would differ a fair amount.

Maybe if using vehicles came with some downside, such as attracting the attention of NPCs and mutants within a radius of the car noise or something...

As far how to update to environment without a complete re-write, I'd say that the answer lies in the subtlety. With improved skins, meshes, animations and AI, the same creatures could seem vastly different in how they react to the world, the environment and the player. What made Stalker great was how familiar areas would always have something different going on. Wild Territory in SoC is a great example of this, really living up to its name (particularly with the Complete mod). A few extra mutants, perhaps some procedural variation in the dimensions, colours and proportions, maybe even a few unique variants (there are the unique weapons, named NPCs why not unique mutants?) and a bunch of new animations etc. as mentioned above and voila - a tonne of additional variation in the game which wasn't there before. Anomalies likewise. They already dealt with unique anomalies in CoP, and moving anomalies too. Perhaps some way to interact with anomalies rather than just avoidance and artefact gathering? Throw x item into y anomaly and get z? They can be clever, not alter the world too much and still end up with a completely new experience if they do it right.

Just so long as it doesn't end up too "gamey". CoP got dangerously close to breaking immersion with some of the weapon add-ons (though they were pretty cool, I'd have preferred if they were game world items (found and/or bought - some generic, some weapon specific, some unique) rather than just menu choices).

[dexterward]

Just so long as it doesn't end up too "gamey".

It`s actually the only thing I`m really worried about. For all they say about how PC is king, the console lure proved irresistible to many a dev before. I really don`t want to see Artifact Hoarder Achievement Unlocked! or some such devices...I want to "live" there goddamit, without being dragged back to real world.

Been playing Chernobyl on/off for about 8 months now and only just cleared Lab X18. In no rush anywhere...game of this calibre might never happen again.

[faetal]

Agree completely. There were achievements in CoP no?
CoP was great and added some really good things, but it was nowhere near as immersive as SoC. For a while, I was all torn about which was my all time favourite game on PC (Deus Ex? SS2?), but on my last play through with the 2009 Complete mod, Stalker just had to top the list. Like you say - you are IN the zone. I think RPG elements may ruin it. For me, the character progression was a combination of better equipment and me becoming more savvy in certain situations. My character become stronger because now I could look down a scope and I now had better "3 round burst from chest to face" reflexes. The learning curve may have put a lot of people off, but once at Rostok, I felt like I'd advanced far more so than in any RPG which gave me stat increases or perks.

[Dia]

It would be good to have vehicles in S2, but I wouldn't want to miss out on the hiking. As tedious as re-treading familiar territory is, the A-life meant that the same route would differ a fair amount.

Seconded. Plus, you have a better chance at upping your mutant-killing quota while hiking. Unless they do it like the Half Life2 dunebuggy thing.

Maybe if using vehicles came with some downside, such as attracting the attention of NPCs and mutants within a radius of the car noise or something...

I'm liking this idea. Kind of like when you're placing the sensors in the anomaly sites and it turns out mutants are attracted to anomalies and you almost get your ass handed to you on silver platter .... more than once.

[faetal]

I think it could be quite realistic if implemented properly. You know the background, randomised mutant howl/screech noises in the other games? They could give a loud, blood-curdling pitch change if your car backfires or you drive too close to a pack with nothing to occlude the engine noise. Some kind of "oh fuck" moment which puts you in worse danger than usual. Maybe vehicle noise makes mutants more aggressive towards you as well, so a pesky band of fleshes suddenly becomes bent on avenging every last pork based product in history.

Something which basically has you weighing up 'do I use the car, or hike?' rather than the presence of cars essentially killing the walking absence. It should be pertinent to the local fauna too - I can imagine a designer fucking it up by having a [use car = spawn mob + attack car] mechanic.

Obviously, this is just me day-dreaming.

[Dia]

I like your dreams. Too bad GSC doesn't have a suggestions box.

[faetal]

Also, car degradation can effect how often and how loud the backfires are. If only someone made a magic box which turned thoughts into mods.

(EDIT: I realise now that I am getting dangerously close to sounding like this parody: https://twitter.com/#!/petermolydeux )

[Koki]

Agree completely. There were achievements in CoP no?

Not in the way you're thinking, no.

[242]

Not in the way you're thinking, no.

I don't think they were much different from console achievements.

[Koki]

You mean other than the fact that they were current-game specific and not global, and they all had effects in-game?

[faetal]

Ok, they're different in that respect. I meant in the sense that something gamey was occurring. As I mentioned, I liked that so much of the character progression in SoC was in the player's adaptation to the world and the difficulty. Also to the availability of equipment. They even made it realistic in that Cordon and Garbage were frequented mostly by Bandits, Rookies and the odd Merc, so the best equipment is also where the best artifacts are at and likewise most of the tougher opponents. It all fits together without feeling like an artificial difficulty curve. Just a nice gradient from edge of the zone to heart of the zone.

As you get closer to the centre of the zone, the rads go up, the mutants get scarier, the artifacts get better so the Stalkers are more numerous and serious and better equipped. It's a really good progression gradient which I think makes is feel more realistic than a lot of games.

[pwyll]

I just finished the series by completing CoP. One of the best games I've played. Can't wait for S.T.A.L.K.E.R. 2.

Good hunting, stalkers!

[Koki]

This doesn't seem to have been mentioned in the July news, so here it is: STALKER 2 movie will be released along with the game.

[Axon1988]

Is there any more recent news on s.t.a.l.k.e.r 2? Or does anyone by any chance have some interesting reads / articles / links for me about the whole s.t.a.l.k.e.r universe? I'm in dire need of something new to read at work.

[mothra]

there is a big eastern gamesconference upcoming...igromir in October. GSC was there almost each year so I guess/hope there will be more info then.

[Axon1988]

@Mothra - If you do find out more details from the show could you post them here? I'm guessing the show won't be in English, and I can only speak English, Afrikaans and Xhosa so that won't help me much.

[Vernon]