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Thread: TFix: unofficial patch for Thief1/Gold

  1. #2626
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Ireland
    But why a fence, of all things?
    If you wanted to prevent mantling, you could have just made the wall slightly higher, it would have looked a lot less out-of-place. Maybe brought it up so that the top of the wall aligns with a brick on the texture, instead of ending on a short sliver of brick?

  2. #2627
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    I didn't want to change the brushes, as that actually would classify as going too far (I don't touch those unless absolutely, absolutely necessary). I also wanted to keep the ability to jump over the wall from the other side, so an object (looking like an iron grate/fence) that would block mantling was a logical solution.

  3. #2628
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2011
    Location: Montpellier, France
    Removing a perfectly valid way of solving a problem is modifying the core gameplay yes, because this game is about solving issues with what's provided to you. And lo and behold, that area is made in such a way that it allows you to climb over the doorframe. That's really amazing. How on earth does escaping the trap this way feel like cheating? That's mind boggling to me, and doubly so as a level designer.
    Brethren is also right, any other patcher is pretty much guaranteed to fail seeing how big TFix is.

  4. #2629
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    you call it perfectly valid, I call it cheaty - it's just way too easy when compared to the other two options, creating a discrepancy. and a discrepancy is something that should be fixed.

    a good example would be me as a kid, finding out that it's way easier to disassemble and reassemble a Rubik cube instead of actually solving it. was it a valid way of achieving the goal? well, all the colors were aligned properly when I was done, so yeah, if the result is the only thing that matters. but was it the intended way? not so much. and cheaty? most certainly.
    Last edited by voodoo47; 18th May 2018 at 19:19.

  5. #2630
    Southquarter.com/fms
    Registered: Apr 2000
    Location: The Akkala Highlands
    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo47 View Post
    the final note specifically warning about the TFix experience not being 100% true to the original, and recommending to look elsewhere if that's what one seeks
    Yes, but that paragraph focuses very specifically on New Dark vs. Old Dark, it doesn't say anything about mods or adding things that weren't there before.

    But you're right about people not reading stuff. The OP is a long read, and as you go down the page I'm sure you're losing people left and right, especially who just want to grab the patch and play. That's why I think the initial paragraph should include something about mods and deliberate changes to the original game.

  6. #2631
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2011
    Location: Montpellier, France
    But it's obviously intended. There is no way in hell LGS didn't take this into account. Can you stop being dense for a second, please?
    The doorframe is 10 units high. That's easily mantleable. The sides around the door are 2.5 units wide, that's more than enough space to be able to mantle up. All of that was already possible in OldDark. Conclusion: it was intended. This area was not designed at random, can you please stop assuming LGS' work is plagued with errors? This area being designed this way is absolutely deliberate. There is no way they did not notice this during development or QA. They fixed some really small stuff from TDP to TG, I'm pretty damn sure they'd have fixed that too. They added a freaking Fire Shadow in the mission for crying out loud!

    Also, a way that's easier than others to solve a problem doesn't mean it's out of place and should be "fixed", as you say. Let's take another example in The Haunted Cathedral: the market street drawbridge can be operated by either shooting a Broadhead or jumping through the window and pressing the buttons. The two solutions are intended, but the first way is much, much easier than the second since you don't risk falling in the river. By your logic there's a discrepancy and it should be "fixed". I mean, it's trivial to just shoot an arrow on the button.

  7. #2632
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by Brethren View Post
    Yes, but that paragraph focuses very specifically on New Dark vs. Old Dark, it doesn't say anything about mods or adding things that weren't there before
    it still very clearly conveys the message, but very well, I'll see whether I can come up with a better formulation sometime soon..ish.
    Quote Originally Posted by skacky View Post
    can you please stop assuming LGS' work is plagued with errors?
    I do not have to assume - I know. I have been living in the editor for almost a decade now.
    Quote Originally Posted by skacky View Post
    But it's obviously intended.
    now that is an assumption right there.
    Quote Originally Posted by skacky View Post
    in The Haunted Cathedral: the market street drawbridge can be operated by either shooting a Broadhead or jumping through the window and pressing the buttons. The two solutions are intended, but the first way is much, much easier than the second since you don't risk falling in the river. By your logic there's a discrepancy and it should be "fixed". I mean, it's trivial to just shoot an arrow on the button.
    not everyone might be aware that you can shoot buttons with arrows, so a failsafe is a good idea, I'd say. also, careful what you wish for.
    Last edited by voodoo47; 18th May 2018 at 19:41.

  8. #2633
    New Member
    Registered: May 2018
    Just another example when a fix/mod/whatever-to-call to make an old game run decent on modern system becomes overloaded with presumption what the original devs did wrong.

  9. #2634
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2011
    Location: Montpellier, France
    What a total waste of time trying to talk to you. I've laid out proper arguments that show it was intended, but you just don't listen. You obviously know better than everyone else, even LGS. That said, never try to design levels, dude.

  10. #2635
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Just rename the project to Voodoo's Purist Nightmare and problem solved.

  11. #2636
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    I think I have made it very clear (from like, the beginning of time) that the full branch is not suitable for purists, again and again. but alright, one more time - it is NOT.
    Quote Originally Posted by MasterFlaw View Post
    frobbable torches even
    that was an example (of something no one should ever do). at least pretend that you read what the other side is posting when having a discussion.
    Quote Originally Posted by skacky View Post
    I've laid out proper arguments that show it was intended
    yes, and my answer still is (and always will be), I agree with the person who reported the place years ago - mantling out is a cheaty way of solving that situation and should be blocked off. you will have to accept that people can have opinions that differ from yours.

    so let me wrap this up - TFix is what it is, use it if you like, if you don't, try the alternatives, and if you don't like that either, you can always set up a virtual machine with win9x and fire up the software mode, the only way a real purist should play the game. //no, that's not correct either - a real REAL purist will grab his old pentium from the basement and hook it up to a crt monitor, because 640*480 res with 15fps and refresh rate of 60Hz is the way the game was meant to be played.
    Last edited by voodoo47; 23rd May 2018 at 08:26.

  12. #2637
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2016
    The unfortunate thing about those checkboxes in the installer is that even if you untick all of them, T2 meshes and some "fixed" objects (both of which look nothing like the originals) still get installed, and the only way to get rid of them is to manually remove them from PATCHES folder. As for T2 textures, skies, and so on, I believe they should not be included at all. Same goes for NTEX pack in the Tafferpatcher. These are not fixes, these are "modifications" that destroy the original cohesive aesthetic.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm thankful that these patches exist, but I can't help but wonder why some of that stuff was included into them.
    Last edited by marbleman; 19th May 2018 at 07:09.

  13. #2638
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    enhanced objects should not get installed with everything ticked off, but I might have made a mistake somewhere, so examples please and I'll see what can be done. about the T2 like meshes, I think (it's been years) they are there because I was not able to make the old ones work properly with other mods, so I've decided to disable them completely. so technical reasons, if you want - but I also think they are too ugly to live anyway, so I didn't really have any regrets.

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterFlaw View Post
    So, unlike the patches for T2 and T3 then, where you can download one patch, deselect all enhancements, and still get clear and obvious fixes while keeping the game the way it was
    nope, I'm very sure they are quite similar in that regard - modifications where (the current maintainers think it's) necessary. Sneaky Upgrade even reconstructs/merges the levels (and does an excellent job), and overhauling of the T2 levels is much more thorough than what can be seen in TFix (geometry and more). but you are obviously unaware of this (and of many, many other things), so if you think making everyone aware that you have pretty much no idea what you are talking about is the best course of action, please, go ahead and continue.

    also, are you seriously telling me what words I should or should not use when talking to people?
    Last edited by voodoo47; 19th May 2018 at 07:30.

  14. #2639
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    yeah, I've already said that I will modify the description in some way (quickly added a few words to the first paragraph that make it clear the full package enhances the game while lite does not). you however don't get to tell me whether I can, or cannot get snarky in my posts, that's what I was referring to.

    anyway, if I understand correctly, you essentially want me to merge TFix full with TFix lite, with lite getting installed when all the checkboxes are cleared. hmm.. that is probably doable, if not exactly simple - would have to reconstruct the installer completely. I may have a look at this once I have more time - in the meantime, you can always go for lite manually as mentioned (a couple of times now).
    Last edited by voodoo47; 19th May 2018 at 07:55.

  15. #2640
    DromEd Archmage
    Registered: Nov 2010
    Location: Returned to the eternal labor
    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo47 View Post
    I agree with the person who reported the place years ago - mantling out is a cheaty way of solving that situation and should be blocked off.
    Who told you that ? If it's just one guy who wants it blocked but the rest was okay with this passage you are acting in an arbitrary way. For a game based on the right to move like you feel it, it's a bad choice.

    I'm one of the guys who disagree with this fence and want it removed. You said it's a cheaty way because too easy. I'm sorry but I had to play a couple of time TDP before discovering this solution to pass it without using lockpicks or rope arrows. A new player find this method after doing the mission several time actually because he wants to try something new each game to check if there were more than one solution. Being able to pass with mantling was actually not that obvious and you are just adding a pointless limit on it.
    I'll even dare to add that it's done in a clumpsy way because this fence looks more like an anomly than something else because it don't even fit with the design of the room.

    Skacky is not saying this just because of his opinion, it's because we are more than you think against such a change. You may tell us "Should I set a poll for a stupid fence and see if people want it?" and to this question I'll answer "yes". If you start blocking ways because you personnaly think it a solution too easy for players, who knows what you'll do in your next versions ? Taking more arbitrary decisions because you don't care about what people think as if the game was yours ?

    We are a game community, we are modders, we are players and we are mappers. Our goal is to remove bad issues that breaks the game and makes goals impossible to complete or map leaks, adding interesting features for more challenge and fun sometimes but not arbitrary removing elements that just solve a single obstacle... doing this is just forcing people to play like you and not just enjoying a game with no issues to break it.

    I bet you'll repeat to me once again "It's my stuff I do what I want and if you don't agree look for something else or change it yourself". I'm sorry guy, even if it's true that I know how to edit game files and know enough to do my own modifications it's not the case of other players who for the most of them don't know how about how to change the files without the fear to break something and your patch is on a sticked thread and, if I understood correctly, included in GOG version. It became so important and massive that you've got the monopoly and you should act in wiser way when you are changing things.

  16. #2641
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2016
    @voodoo Yes, new meshes get installed even with all boxes unticked.
    Vanilla:

    TFix with no mods:

    That's because new meshes are installed into the PATCHES folder, not the MODS folder. Apart from mesh.crf, the former also contains obj.crf, which overhauls a whole bunch of objects. On the screenshots, you can see that the blackjack model is different.
    I would also argue that original meshes look better. That's a matter of taste, of course, but the default configuration should have the original meshes I think. And if some mods don't work with the old meshes, then let the players who want to play with mods install T2 meshes at their own leisure.

  17. #2642
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    yeah, as mentioned, the meshes are intentional, and so is the blackjack - notice that the model corresponds to the one you are holding in your hand (can't imagine someone could view the proper blackjack model as something bad).


    just to make sure everything's clear, the GOG version uses lite, so bugfix only strict.

    and yes, as I've said, no matter how much you guys hate that mantle blocker, I still consider it a fix to a place that shouldn't be mantleable (is that even a word?) in the first place. TFix full is, and was always meant to be the overhauled/tweaked/enhanced maps and resources plus mods, so trying to make it something else would not make much sense. and if you don't want that, again, why not just grab lite and live happily ever after?
    Last edited by voodoo47; 19th May 2018 at 10:14.

  18. #2643
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    ok, adding a double check of the meshes on the todo list.
    Quote Originally Posted by MasterFlaw View Post
    Would be nice to get some of the more obvious fixes like Constantine and the cocoons
    they are included in the lite version, of course. you could have checked you know - that's what I'm saying all along, what you want already exists, and it's TFix lite.

  19. #2644
    ZylonBane
    Registered: Sep 2000
    Location: ZylonBane
    Quote Originally Posted by MasterFlaw View Post
    Yeah those meshes clash so hard with the steampunkish T1 vibe, it's really the most annoying part of the whole patch.
    You are an OCD loony bird. The updated meshes are official Looking Glass models, from the next game in the series, set in the same universe, in the same city, only a year or two after the first game. The only significant difference is that they have higher poly counts and texture resolution, and thus look somewhat like actual humans instead of the animate stuffed mannequins of the first game.

  20. #2645
    ZylonBane
    Registered: Sep 2000
    Location: ZylonBane
    At least you've finally admitted that this is a "you" problem.

  21. #2646
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    sure.

  22. #2647
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2017
    Not that it's going to affect anything, but I just wanna put in my 2 cents that the fence in Haunted Cathedral is not a fix, but rather a modification which actually breaks an intended solution to a puzzle. It should not be included in a collection of fixes.

  23. #2648
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    it is not - a collection of fixes (and nothing else but bugfixes) is TFix lite. whether mantling was an intended solution for escaping the Keeper trap is debatable (as mentioned, solve the situation by arrow shenanigans or lockpicking vs lol just avoid the trap completely, no effort required).

    anyway, just pick the proper package and you'll be fine.
    Last edited by voodoo47; 20th May 2018 at 03:39.

  24. #2649
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    well what do you know, the Council is leaning towards leaving the place alone. so fine, the object will be renamed to the Fence of Feud, and set to destroy itself upon level start in the next update.

    just for the record, my personal opinion remains unchanged - you mantle out of that place, you are cheating.
    Last edited by voodoo47; 31st May 2018 at 05:39.

  25. #2650
    New Member
    Registered: May 2018
    Well, at least you admit it is just your opinion.
    Maybe I repeat myself, but just to clarify: It is fine when someone makes an old game usable on modern systems, and thatīs ok. However itīs not the business of a modder to edit parts of a game where he thinks the original devs went wrong. There is always some way to "abuse" certain mechanics - itīs not up to a modder to prevent this. A game should offer the freedom to be played how the player wants it, even if this incluses tactics like this and someone considers this cheating or whatever. Nobody needs supervision for his own entertainment.

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