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Thread: TFix: unofficial patch for Thief1/Gold

  1. #2651
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2004
    Location: Germany
    Interesting to read through this discussion. The funny thing is that i did exact the same for TG HD mod. I didn't know that TFix has included this fence too. But i know why voodoo did it...because it was impossible to do that without NewDark and it's nothing else than cheating to climb over it!

  2. #2652
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    to be fair, it was possible to mantle out even in oldDark - and I would still consider it cheating, and still think it should be blocked.

    yeah, of course it's an opinion, just like everything else people are saying (including whether it is, or is not someone's business to do or not do something - so yes, you saying that you think someone else should not do something because you think they shouldn't is also just an opinion). I did give the modification a fair bit of thought (I always do), and my conclusion was that mantling should not be allowed there, and the player should focus on either picking the lock, or escaping by using a rope arrow.

    lets see if we can use an analogy here - if you can grab loot from a locked container without picking its lock, this is an issue, and needs a fix, agreed? but if you can jump over a locked door instead of picking the lock, this somehow isn't? why? because additional object is needed? I mean, if seeing the object and not liking the arguably changed visuals is the problem, I can make it invisible (meaning the place would look identical, but mantling would still not be possible). but if I understand correctly, not being able to mantle out is what you dislike.


    an example of what I would consider a proper setup - Garrett comes to the door, trap activates, and there are two options, the obvious one is to pick the lock and hope it can be done quickly enough, and the second sneaky one, realizing there is just enough room at the top of the wall to get in, and using a rope arrow and mantle jump to enter.



    and not lol I can jump over this with no effort lalala like mentioned earlier. making stupid places not stupid is my business, I believe.
    Last edited by voodoo47; 21st May 2018 at 12:20.

  3. #2653
    ZylonBane
    Registered: Sep 2000
    Location: ZylonBane
    Quote Originally Posted by Udo View Post
    However itīs not the business of a modder to edit parts of a game where he thinks the original devs went wrong.
    Editing a part of the game where you think the original dev went wrong is the literal definition of bugfixing. So you're saying modders shouldn't fix bugs?

  4. #2654
    Southquarter.com/fms
    Registered: Apr 2000
    Location: The Akkala Highlands
    I think it's pretty clear that he's talking about design choices, which are highly subjective, vs. normal errors/mistakes which are more straightforward. Like arrow traps that don't fire.

  5. #2655
    ZylonBane
    Registered: Sep 2000
    Location: ZylonBane
    Except this is the same thread where just a page or two ago someone was arguing that even obviously broken things are deliberate design choices, because the original dev decided to leave them broken. So I'm taking people at their word in this madhouse.

  6. #2656
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2017
    Quote Originally Posted by Gecko View Post
    Interesting to read through this discussion. The funny thing is that i did exact the same for TG HD mod. I didn't know that TFix has included this fence too. But i know why voodoo did it...because it was impossible to do that without NewDark and it's nothing else than cheating to climb over it!
    not sure why people think it's impossible to mantle it without new_mantle, this just shows a complete lack of knowledge about facets of the game. It's pretty silly.

  7. #2657
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    the main point is that some people think mantling out of there is cheating (and should be blocked off), while others do not. and speaking of silliness, why is there a giant gaping hole right over a locked door into a secure compound again?

  8. #2658
    Desperately Dodgy Moderator
    Registered: Nov 2001
    Location: Dragonsreach
    IMO that gaping hole was put there by the devs to give the clever player a way to bypass the pressure plate, although I know of course that you disagree with that, which is your prerogative.

  9. #2659
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo47 View Post
    and speaking of silliness, why is there a giant gaping hole right over a locked door into a secure compound again?

    Because the technology of cat doors hadn't been invented yet?

  10. #2660
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    "clever" is not the word I would use in this situation.

  11. #2661
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    so what you are saying here is that design choices, no matter how bad/unfinished/broken, should be left alone? if that's the case, then I can't really help you. anyway, I would like someone from the don't-touch-stuff group to have a shot this:
    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo47 View Post
    if you can grab loot from a locked container without picking its lock, this is an issue, and needs a fix, agreed? but if you can jump over a locked door instead of picking the lock, this somehow isn't?
    another example - what about the candles? the evidence of LGS planning to make them interactive is very solid - various setups they were trying out in the first five levels, unused resources found in the crfs, but they didn't manage to pull it off in the end and gave up completely in level 6 and above. maybe they didn't have enough time, maybe the scripts were not advanced enough, maybe they just didn't figure it out, or left it for later and then simply forgot. the result are all those anomalous candle objects that emit light, have no visible flame, and cannot be extinguished by any means. where does this fall? it's kind of a broken or unfinished functionality, resulting in poor visuals and missing mechanics, and a less believable world. is this something that should be fixed?

    my answer is, 100% hell yes, hence, TFix interactive candles.
    Last edited by voodoo47; 22nd May 2018 at 09:13.

  12. #2662
    New Member
    Registered: May 2018
    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo47 View Post
    yeah, of course it's an opinion, just like everything else people are saying (including whether it is, or is not someone's business to do or not do something - so yes, you saying that you think someone else should not do something because you think they shouldn't is also just an opinion). I did give the modification a fair bit of thought (I always do), and my conclusion was that mantling should not be allowed there, and the player should focus on either picking the lock, or escaping by using a rope arrow.

    lets see if we can use an analogy here - if you can grab loot from a locked container without picking its lock, this is an issue, and needs a fix, agreed? but if you can jump over a locked door instead of picking the lock, this somehow isn't? why? because additional object is needed? I mean, if seeing the object and not liking the arguably changed visuals is the problem, I can make it invisible (meaning the place would look identical, but mantling would still not be possible). but if I understand correctly, not being able to mantle out is what you dislike.


    an example of what I would consider a proper setup - Garrett comes to the door, trap activates, and there are two options, the obvious one is to pick the lock and hope it can be done quickly enough, and the second sneaky one, realizing there is just enough room at the top of the wall to get in, and using a rope arrow and mantle jump to enter.



    and not lol I can jump over this with no effort lalala like mentioned earlier. making stupid places not stupid is my business, I believe.
    Loot that can be grabbed without opening a vault is completely different than the issue in the chapel.
    What use does the fence exactly have? I donīt see any in it. Even with it, bypassing the trap with an rope arrow is simple. If you think any shortcut here should be completely blocked, then you should include a reall wall. Period. It seems you rather implemented the fence because you want to force your view on this to everyone or because of a grudge against speedrunners.

    It might be debatable if LGS had a shortcut in mind here or it was just an oversight in the design of the level. However they didnīt include a "fix" for that in one of their official patches. So it can be presumed it was meant to be this way and not to be changed years later.

    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo47 View Post
    the main point is that some people think mantling out of there is cheating (and should be blocked off), while others do not. and speaking of silliness, why is there a giant gaping hole right over a locked door into a secure compound again?
    Well, like said above, if we talk about logic, then it should be a wall reaching to the ceiling, not just a fence on top of it. For some reasons they didnīt make it a wall to the ceiling, so a fence shouldnīt be there.
    There are still many ways to "cheat" in the game, be it knocking out NPCs through doors, but it should be up to the player to decide if he wants to use that or not.

  13. #2663
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    yeah, that's why I'm asking - is the way I handled the situation what you see as a problem, or that I have handled it at all? would making the wall higher as seen on the video instead of introducing a mantle blocker object be ok with you?
    Quote Originally Posted by Udo View Post
    However they didnīt include a "fix" for that in one of their official patches. So it can be presumed it was meant to be this way
    as mentioned earlier, this isn't a real argument. or a thing, for that matter - bugs can be left unfixed for a wide variety of reasons, but whoever thinks it's ok to leave a bug because we like things broken is one of them, has.. problems. let me try to spell it out loud - you are saying that at some point, someone said "hey everyone, this is broken, we could fix it in three clicks, but lets NOT do it because having it not work properly is GOOD". what?
    Last edited by voodoo47; 22nd May 2018 at 09:36.

  14. #2664
    New Member
    Registered: May 2018
    The only thing I would be ok with that is to leave it unchanged. Even the mantle blocker makes no sense. Heck, it is even possible to escape with the rope arrow if someone desires that.

    Well, itīs only you who thinks this is not a real argument. You just insist this is a bug, which is nonsense, as a bug would break the functionality of the game, and here this isnīt the case. The only one with problems seems to be you, just implementing a useless change just to anger some players because you enjoy the stir. If you would at least say you prefer it that way, ok, but you insist that this has to be the way it was meant to be. Sigh.
    Some players will not use the version of that fix for that reason. If a mod becomes unpopular for such reasons then the creator has done something wrong.

  15. #2665
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    lite actually does floor a bunch of objects that float too horribly, the wooden plank that levitates five feet above the ground in Cragscleft mines would be a good example. and as mentioned, I will be having a look at the meshes and see whether I can resolve the technical stuff in some smart way.
    Quote Originally Posted by Udo View Post
    The only thing I would be ok with that is to leave it unchanged.
    ok, I can't help you if that's the case, as I think things should evolve. as they are


    Quote Originally Posted by Udo View Post
    Well, itīs only you who thinks this is not a real argument. You just insist this is a bug, which is nonsense, as a bug would break the functionality of the game, and here this isnīt the case
    I'm talking (and already mentioned this) about flat out bugs that were left in the final version of the game, like the garbled values on the Maw cocoons - that's not something you do (and leave in there) on purpose, period. so you simply can't argue about this one, and it completely defeats the "all-bugs-that-are-left-in-the-final-game-were-left-there-on-purpose" argument. so again, original devs knowing about a bug and intentionally leaving it in the game because that's the way it should be from now on and forever simply isn't a thing, just like flat earth isn't.

    whether mantling should, or should not be allowed at the Cathedral Keeper library is indeed a matter of opinion, as I have stated many times now (did you even read those posts?).

    Quote Originally Posted by Udo View Post
    you, just implementing a useless change just to anger some players because you enjoy the stir.
    do you seriously believe I fixed that place up to attract purist rage on the forum? this is just.. wow. let me repeat what I've said earlier (would be nice if you have actually read my posts btw), I simply agreed with the person that has reported that place all those years ago - mantling should not be allowed there, so I have fixed it accordingly. that's all there is to it, if you see something more, it's all just you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Udo View Post
    If a mod becomes unpopular for such reasons then the creator has done something wrong.
    agreed. though I don't think there were too many complaints throughout the years, but feel free to skim through the 100+ pages of this topic to pinpoint them - I'm very sure they will all be just purists misunderstanding the aim of the project (in case you missed it, I'll repeat again - the full version is meant to combine various mods, fixes and other bits community has created throughout the years into one easily installable package. it is not, and was never meant to cater to purist needs).

  16. #2666
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    bunny hopping can be tweaked, but as some FMs rely upon it, it's probably best left alone (same goes for strafe running). frontal/strafe blackjacking is on the todo list, but I don't have a satisfactory solution at this point. the container exploit (if you mean the ability to grab loot through locked doors and similar) will be fixed of course, that is definitely not intentional.

    incomplete feature vs bugs - if the feature makes sense and can be completed, then it will get completed (candles). if not, and if it's causing problems, something temporary will be applied to make sure there is no trouble until something better can be done.

  17. #2667
    New Member
    Registered: May 2018
    You know Starcraft 2. Great. Now what?

    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo47 View Post
    I'm talking (and already mentioned this) about flat out bugs that were left in the final version of the game, like the garbled values on the Maw cocoons - that's not something you do (and leave in there) on purpose, period. so you simply can't argue about this one, and it completely defeats the "all-bugs-that-are-left-in-the-final-game-were-left-there-on-purpose" argument. so again, original devs knowing about a bug and intentionally leaving it in the game because that's the way it should be from now on and forever simply isn't a thing, just like flat earth isn't.
    I donīt know what the issues with cocoons were, so I donīt comment on that. However, I repeat myself. Things that have a negative impact on gameplay(if it was the case with cocoons?) are ok to be fixed, so nobody complains about that.
    However it seems we have complete different views about what a bug is and what not.


    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo47 View Post
    whether mantling should, or should not be allowed at the Cathedral Keeper library is indeed a matter of opinion, as I have stated many times now (did you even read those posts?).
    Yes, I have, and have you read other posts as well? You just stated several times that you view is at "cheating" and you agree with some guy who reported it years ago.
    This does not mean that everyone has the same viewpoint on that.
    You were kindly asked several times to remove it or give players a choice, only to give snarky answers.

    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo47 View Post
    do you seriously believe I fixed that place up to attract purist rage on the forum? this is just.. wow. let me repeat what I've said earlier (would be nice if you have actually read my posts btw), I simply agreed with the person that has reported that place all those years ago - mantling should not be allowed there, so I have fixed it accordingly. that's all there is to it, if you see something more, it's all just you.
    We talk about the same thing again and again. And yes, it is my impression that you are so insinstant about it because you seem to find it funny if people are angered about that.
    You donīt have to like speedrunning or a "cheaty" playstyle, but your reactions regarding this issue are too negative.


    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo47 View Post
    agreed. though I don't think there were too many complaints throughout the years, but feel free to skim through the 100+ pages of this topic to pinpoint them - I'm very sure they will all be just purists misunderstanding the aim of the project (in case you missed it, I'll repeat again - the full version is meant to combine various mods, fixes and other bits community has created throughout the years into one easily installable package. it is not, and was never meant to cater to purist needs).
    See, thatīs the issue again. You just call people who donīt want too many changes purists. Iīm perfectly fine with widescreen resolutions, frobbable candles or even T2 textures in T1, however some people are not, and while I might not agree with their viewpoint, I can respect it.
    You on the other hand are not willing to offer a compromise because you deem only your viewpoint right. If it wouldnīt be for this, we wouldnīt have this discussion(and no, I will not read over 100 pages).

  18. #2668
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by Udo View Post
    Things that have a negative impact on gameplay(if it was the case with cocoons?) are ok to be fixed, so nobody complains about that.
    However it seems we have complete different views about what a bug is and what not.
    yes, we have a different opinion on what a thing with a negative impact on gameplay is. obviously.

    Quote Originally Posted by Udo View Post
    This does not mean that everyone has the same viewpoint on that.
    agreed. obviously.

    Quote Originally Posted by Udo View Post
    You were kindly asked several times to remove it or give players a choice, only to give snarky answers.
    "kindly" eeh not so much - there was more of a "how dare you" vibe going on, I think. my general tone usually reflects the tone of the person starting the discussion, so there you go. also, some other things I immediately gave were a full explanation, custom tweaks, and a link to TFix lite. perhaps master would like some warm mixed nuts and a moist hand towel as well?

    Quote Originally Posted by Udo View Post
    your reactions regarding this issue are too negative.
    if stating clearly what I think is negative, then sure - I can live with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Udo View Post
    You just call people who donīt want too many changes purists.
    isn't that pretty much the definition of a purist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Udo View Post
    You on the other hand are not willing to offer a compromise because you deem only your viewpoint right.
    yes, that's exactly why I went the extra mile and contacted a few fellow modders and other TFix contributors about their opinion, and after seeing their feedback, decided to fully revert the change. so yeah, you didn't get a compromise, because you got exactly what you wanted. like, 100%.
    Last edited by voodoo47; 22nd May 2018 at 14:54.

  19. #2669
    New Member
    Registered: May 2018
    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo47 View Post
    "kindly" eeh not so much - there was more of a "how dare you" vibe going on, I think. my general tone usually reflects the tone of the person starting the discussion, so there you go. also, some other things I immediately gave were a full explanation, custom tweaks, and a link to TFix lite. perhaps master would like some warm mixed nuts and a moist hand towel as well?
    Just because some people reacted salty to your changes does not justify to be snappy in general about this topic. Your sarcasm also doesnīt help here either. Also what have you expected? That everybody playing Thief would agree with you?

    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo47 View Post
    isn't that pretty much the definition of a purist?
    While this oh so funny definition from this dubious webpage might apply to some players, itīs just stupid generalization. Some pages before you made remarks about playing on CRT in VGA on Win9x. Aside the sarcasm itīs not good to only think in extremes.

    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo47 View Post
    yes, that's exactly why I went the extra mile and contacted a few fellow modders and other TFix contributors about their opinion, and after seeing their feedback, decided to fully revert the change. so yeah, you didn't get a compromise, because you got exactly what you wanted. like, 100%.
    Wow, finally...imagine how simple it would have been without all the heated discussions.

  20. #2670
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2011
    Location: Ferrol - Spain
    Iīm really, really satisfied with TFix.
    Sorry.

  21. #2671
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by Udo View Post
    Wow, finally...imagine how simple it would have been without all the heated discussions.
    Yet you have continued to berate him after he reversed the decision. Why? You already got exactly what you wanted. Was that not enough? What else do you want at this point?

  22. #2672
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    I don't think he actually realized - he most likely didn't bother to read the entire discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by bassoferrol View Post
    Sorry.
    no need to be sorry for something you enjoy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Udo View Post
    what have you expected? That everybody playing Thief would agree with you?
    no. have you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Udo View Post
    While this oh so funny definition from this dubious webpage might apply to some players, itīs just stupid generalization. Some pages before you made remarks about playing on CRT in VGA on Win9x. Aside the sarcasm itīs not good to only think in extremes.
    I actually find it pretty funny. and I also do all that crazy win9x vga stuff from time to time (minus the CRT part, I really can't be bothered with that). it's fun, you should try it too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Udo View Post
    Wow, finally...imagine how simple it would have been without all the heated discussions.
    but also boring. and no worries, I can take all the heat you could ever possibly output - I have been doing hw/sw support for almost quarter a century now, and trust me, you don't even come close to some people I had to deal with.


    anyway, I agree that there is no reason to continue this, so unless you have some technical questions, lets stop here and live happily ever after. or until you find out that I have replaced the brush spoon in the Little Big World with an object spoon.
    Last edited by voodoo47; 22nd May 2018 at 19:01.

  23. #2673
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2017
    Just in the name of positivity, I'd like to say that I never had any problems with you, and I wish the discussion could have been more civil. I agree that the tone was pretty bad from the start, I don't think it was necessarily you, Voodoo, who started it. I don't agree with your thoughts on that point in Cathedral, but I actually think the way you handled the situation was great. Less assholery in the discussion would've been great, but that's a complaint which can be made of pretty much everyone involved.

    I hope everyone has a nice day.

  24. #2674
    Desperately Dodgy Moderator
    Registered: Nov 2001
    Location: Dragonsreach
    Udo, your discussion needs to be done here, and this thread needs to get back on topic. And that goes for anyone else who decides to start rehashing the whole recent chain of discussion. This has gone on long enough.

  25. #2675
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2004
    Location: Pennsylvania
    So voodoo47 Thank YOU! Thanks for all of the hard work you have done to make this game better for others (And yourself of course) and know that most of us appreciate you.
    Last edited by Yandros; 23rd May 2018 at 12:16. Reason: Removed off topic content

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