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Thread: TFix: unofficial patch for Thief1/Gold

  1. #3151
    New Member
    Registered: Nov 2023

    Original Sounds

    Interesting response.

    These "unconscious AI" sounds were programmed by the creators of Thief 1 & 2. I reckon the original development team took some time to architect these sounds for realism and not because they enjoy artificial intelligence pain responses.

    Let's illustrate this a bit more. Shall we?

    In Thief 2's mission, "Masks" for example, I scared every single guard to follow me. I shot an arrow at the main floor ceiling and climbed up. From up there, I released a couple of eggs and had them fight the little creatures. In one instance, a guard said: "I can't take this anymore!' while other guards were exclaiming desperation comments to fight off these little green frogs.

    With the Tfix patch all these "pain" comments are gone and somehow the realism has been sanitized and rated G (not rated R.) In any event, while the patch is indeed a great stride in present development, it does not keep the original POC for these "pain" sounds.

  2. #3152
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    we already had that discussion with the other.. connoisseur of AI pain effects, to make it short, knocked out AIs shouldn't scream, it's weird and unrealistic (using the term broadly here), "the original devs did it" is not an argument as they did a lot of bad things that had to be fixed, and I'm not reverting the change (applied so long ago that it even predates me maintaining TFix). the end.


    or not. if you really want, take the last TG dark.gam, rename it to tfix.gam, and overwrite the file in your TFixed TG install. you will get the pain sounds back, and some other things will happen. not very good ones mind you, but hey, no pain no gain, right?
    Last edited by voodoo47; 23rd Nov 2023 at 15:13.

  3. #3153
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2001
    Location: Marlboro, MA, USA
    That was specifically removed in TFix? Seems like a good standard would be to stick with original design as much as possible.

    EDIT - Thought about it more, still not sure, but unconscious AI making those sounds is indeed a bit odd.
    Last edited by Komag; 24th Nov 2023 at 16:27.
    The Keep for Thief 1 and 2 FMs, Shadowdark for Thief 3 and Dark Mod FMs

  4. #3154
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    iirc some AIs could also talk (to Garrett) while sleeping, that has also been fixed - hilarious but immersion breaking.

    afaik, if you are knocked out, and something painful is being done to you, your body will attempt to force you to regain consciousness, if that fails and the harm done is lethal, then you die silently. if you manage to regain consciousness, then you start screaming of pain. anything else would be just weird.


    but I have to admit I haven't tried this myself - perhaps someone more experienced in torturing human beings to death can pitch in?

  5. #3155
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2015
    Fortunately, I cannot say I have experience with such things. However, as far as the question itself is concerned, this change is implemented in the M-KnockedOut metaproperty, rather unsurprisingly, to the effect of customizing the broadcast settings of KO'd AIs to not react verbally to damage, among other things.

    If you want to disable this, you can just drop this small DML in any mod folder. This will also work for Thief 2 with the fixed missions.
    Code:
    DML1
    
    // T1/TG/T2: Make KO'd AIs react to damage. File: gamesys.dml
    
    -ObjProp "M-KnockedOut" "AI_BcstSet"
    As discussed, while not certain, I would imagine this was implemented to avoid having AIs react strangely when knocked out, especially since some of the pain sounds involve real dialogue.

  6. #3156
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2022
    When is planned 1.28 and with what features ?

  7. #3157
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    the version number corresponds to the NewDark version, so until/unless NewDark is updated, TFix will stay on 1.27 forever, the only thing that will be changing with new releases is the letter at the end.

    that said, for the next TFix update, a switch to the AM16 map pack is planned, and also full Dark Mod Manager integration.

  8. #3158
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2016
    Location: France
    Any chance to keep the current versions of fixed missions?

    AM's pack is vastly impressive, but it contains quite a few bugs that were already addressed in the current version of TFix, so it would feel like a downgrade in a way.
    Last edited by marbleman; 1st Dec 2023 at 21:11.

  9. #3159
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    the regressions are going to be ironed out eventually.

    hmm.. I think I'll bite the bullet and just make it user selectable, will bloat the patcher a bit but 150MB vs 200MB shouldn't be that big of a deal. doing this also means not losing win95 compatibility, yaay.


    if you have a list of those map bugs, let AM16 know.

  10. #3160
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2022
    voodoo, I'm posting here for this mod to work with Black Parade.

    I copied the code to a.txt file, save as gamesys.dml, put it into the usermods folder. It doesn't work in Black parade.
    DML1


    //set hearing to all creatures, allowed values are "Null", "Well Below Average", "Below Average", "Average", "Above Average", "Well Above Average"
    +ObjProp -8 "AI_Hearing" = "Null"
    //remove the prop from all concretes upon beginscript
    +ObjProp -8 "Scripts"
    {
    "Script 0" NVRemovePropertyTrap
    "Script 1" ""
    "Script 2" ""
    "Script 3" ""
    }
    +ObjProp -8 "DesignNote"
    {
    "" NVRemovePropertyTrapOn="BeginScript"; NVRemovePropertyTrapProp="AI_Hearing"; NVRemovePropertyTrapCount=1;
    }
    //preserve the Null value for Cameras no matter the global setting
    +ObjProp -3363 "Scripts"
    {
    "Script 0" ""
    "Don't Inherit" TRUE
    }
    //remove the prop from Trickster and AirElement
    -ObjProp -1781 "AI_Hearing"
    -ObjProp -4391 "AI_Hearing"

  11. #3161
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    before I check this, you sure you have saved it as gamesys.dml, and not gamesys.dml.txt? remember, windows needs to be set to display known file extensions..

    also, you want to know how to customize this for the fm, or you just want a working code?

  12. #3162
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2022
    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo47 View Post
    before I check this, you sure you have saved it as gamesys.dml, and not gamesys.dml.txt? remember, windows needs to be set to display known file extensions..

    also, you want to know how to customize this for the fm, or you just want a working code?
    It is saved as gamesys.dml, not txt file. I would like a working code if possible for all fms.

  13. #3163
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2016
    Location: France
    The Black Parade is not compatible with DMLs. You can enable this functionality, but you will encounter bugs, possibly game-breaking ones.
    Last edited by marbleman; 3rd Dec 2023 at 12:26.

  14. #3164
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    any ND mission is compatible with dmls. whether they work properly is an entirely different matter.

    anyway, made the dml as universal as possible;
    DML1

    //load extra scripts
    #script "nvscript"

    //set hearing to all creatures, allowed values are "Null", "Well Below Average", "Below Average", "Average", "Above Average", "Well Above Average"
    +ObjProp "Creature" "AI_Hearing" = "Null"

    //create a custom metaprop to avoid script conflicts as much as possible, and remove the prop from all concretes upon beginscript
    CreateArch "MetaProperty" "HearMeNot"
    {
    }
    +ObjProp "HearMeNot" "Scripts"
    {
    "Script 0" NVRemovePropertyTrap
    }
    +ObjProp "HearMeNot" "DesignNote"
    {
    "" NVRemovePropertyTrapOn="BeginScript"; NVRemovePropertyTrapProp="AI_Hearing"; NVRemovePropertyTrapCount=1;
    }
    +MetaProp "Creature" "HearMeNot"

    //manually remove the prop from Trickster and AirElement
    -ObjProp "Trickster" "AI_Hearing"
    -ObjProp "AirElement" "AI_Hearing"
    make sure the latest NVscript is somewhere in your modfolders. as always, use at your own risk, and don't cry if the dml breaks something.

  15. #3165
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by weylfar
    I've put NVScript.osm in usermods folder with new .dml file but still doesn't work.
    not working how.

  16. #3166
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2022
    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo47 View Post
    not working how.
    Guards react to the footstep sounds.

  17. #3167
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    aha, edit fm.cfg and delete the apply_dbmods 0 line.

    note that the fm is probably doing this for a reason, so you will most likely get some issues caused by the TFix dmls, which are mostly meant for the vanilla game (can disable by renaming gamesys.dml inside the OSM folder though). choose your poison wisely.

  18. #3168
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2022
    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo47 View Post
    aha, edit fm.cfg and delete the apply_dbmods 0 line.

    note that the fm is probably doing this for a reason, so you will most likely get some issues caused by the TFix dmls, which are mostly meant for the vanilla game (can disable by renaming gamesys.dml inside the OSM folder though). choose your poison wisely.
    Voodoo, it works now. Thank you.

  19. #3169
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2016
    Location: France
    That's what I meant by "not compatible," yes. Hopefully you won't run into anything game-breaking, but no guarantees.

  20. #3170
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    sure. also checked their gamesys, and they did something I would consider.. not ideal. basically, the fm.cfg is rejecting dml fixes, so the assumption would be that the TFix fixup gamesys dml is incompatible, and they just imported the part of fixes deemed good into their gamesys. nope and nope - the gamesys dml actually is compatible, and they did not import anything. so you will get all the good stuff like the fire elemental projectile volley of annihilation (well, assuming the fm has fire elementals), sleeping zombies turning their heads and so on.

    so maybe don't rename the gamesys.dml in the OSM folder - I'm 98% sure it will fix more than it breaks.


    also this has reminded me I should change the dml to target archetype names instead of their numeric ids, as this is safer for fan missions.

  21. #3171
    New Member
    Registered: Dec 2023
    So if I understand this correctly, unlike the Sneaky Upgrade for Thief 3, if TFix's or T2Fix's full version is installed for their respective games, you cannot enable and disable the specific features that were originally installed by those patches?

  22. #3172
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    not by clicking some config screen, no. not YET, anyway.

    for now, you will need to run the patcher again and select/deselect the features you want.

  23. #3173
    New Member
    Registered: Dec 2023
    A config screen like Sneaky Upgrade's would be a great idea in the future if you're interested in implementing it.

  24. #3174
    New Member
    Registered: Dec 2023

    phys_freq/framerate judder bug testing

    Potential bug report:

    I've been running TFix-Lite on my Steam copy of Thief Gold to play the amazing new mod, The Black Parade, and in messing with TFix's vsync and physics tick rate options, I've noticed some issues which may or may not be common knowledge so I wanted to mention them.

    With the phys_freq option set to 60 (as intended) and the game framerate unlocked, the in-game camera becomes very smooth but character movement causes loads of judder. I presume this is because camera movement is not tied to the physics tick rate while player movement is, so there's a misalignment between movement and refresh rate when moving.

    To experiment, I put the phys_freq value to 100 (which I'm told causes other glitches), while capping the framerate to 100 and of course setting my monitor to 100hz. A lot of the judder was gone as I expected, but not quite all of it. There were still little pops and sputters as I slid left and right in front of the same bush over and over.

    So, lastly, I set the phys_freq value back to 60 and put my monitor to 60hz (I think I tried this with the software fps cap set to 60 and to 100), and the same small amount of judder persisted!

    The only way I could get rid of the judder entirely was to comment out the phys_freq variable and play the game at a standard 60hz.

    This is all just my own testing, and I'm sure I missed some stuff (I don't remember whether I tried each of this with vsync 0 and 3 for example), but it leads me to suspect that the phys_freq isn't quite able to align itself with monitor refresh even when their 'per second's are ostensibly the same. I believe there are plenty of games with independent physics that resolve this issue - and even manage to align the physics with higher framerates - via forms of interpolation. I'm wondering if something like that is possible, or if this engine could never support it?

    Thanks for taking the time to read this!

  25. #3175
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2022
    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo47 View Post
    the version number corresponds to the NewDark version, so until/unless NewDark is updated, TFix will stay on 1.27 forever, the only thing that will be changing with new releases is the letter at the end.
    When will NewDark be upgraded and how ?

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