TFix: unofficial patch for Thief1/Gold

[wafflepotatopancake]

actually, an excellent time for a beta test. Mage Tovers mission, fixed the firemage, relit to 32bit & recalculated pathfinding database. sneak around and let me know if you find any anomalies.

With pleasure! I'll let you know once I finish, and hopefully I can move on to streaming more than just hours upon hours of me failing the mage towers to that mage.

Edit: Ohhh, while I'm thinking of it as you asked about other problems, I do recall now (and I have on video I think too if you need a visual) a part in Cragscleft where every time a hammer patrols by Basso the Boxman's cell (prior to opening it) he will give off a first alert. Not that you can supreme ghost or even legitimately perfect ghost it (which would require keyholing which I myself can't do) but still rather infuriating. I'm not sure how many times I must have reloaded hearing that first alert thinking it was me then figuring out it was because of Basso.

It didn't seem to be an every time thing too. I think I ran Cragscleft 3 or perhaps 4 times, and I only remember having that problem 3/4 times. There was one run that Basso didn't seem to bother anyone and never caused first alerts. Not sure why that is. It isn't game breaking or anything, just an oddity, especially considering I'm fairly certain that its a patch of perfect darkness in his cell (not sure). Well, it bothers me anyway since I supreme everything possible whether its going to fail or not, probably not much an issue for normal players.

I can't at the moment recall any other problems that I might have run into (but hell, I have memory problems so that isn't saying much) or at least not so much that they are undoable. There are quite a a lot of things that because of AI changes and sensitivity no longer work if you supreme, but are not impossible (though in extremely rare cases such as Thom some AI nudging has become required. I think I had to nudge in the Mage towers too to get a purse ) I think the rest of the Thieves guild mission was entirely ghostable and the most supreme busts you have to do are 1 AI nudge and douse 3 torches maximum to get all of the loot with 0 1st/2nd alerts).

[wafflepotatopancake]

I did a quick playthrough the towers to test (I didn't check the main building out since I have to run out) but there are a few problems I've never seen before.

The first one I ran into was the 2 regular guards (not the mages) outside the earth tower would for some reason would stop patrolling to the left of the earth tower entrance outside the tower. Not a big deal, a quicksave/quickload gets them moving again.

Didn't have another problem until the Air tower, and this one was frustrating. For some reason, the air mage in the front (the leader of the pair patrolling that is) of the 2 mages that patrol the first large room would once past the elevator on the bottom part of the room, would for some reason upon quick loading levitate in the air just below the upper ring and reverse direction, until he made it back to the stairs and gets stuck in the corner. This one is sort of game breaking, as if you don't have a save to revert to prior to his levitation then he will repeatedly pull this stunt making it VERY hard to get past him if you can at all.

Didn't have any missing elevators in the Air tower. I hadn't had any missing prior though, but we all know it's a fairly uncommon bug.

I did find a new problem though. I decided to take the secondary exit from the air tower into the central keep instead of going back down and apparently now the door to the main keep is missing. I have no idea how that happened. It sure helps the guards out though!

The good news is that the mage in the Fire tower patrols now. The bad news is the mage on the level below pulls the same levitation trick under the stairs and immediately gets stuck. This actually works out immensely in my favor, but it shouldn't happen.

I made saves at the air tower floating mage, the missing door, and the fire tower floating mage and tossed them into a zip file. You can take a look here if you like: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B7u9...it?usp=sharing

[voodoo47]

just to make sure - this is all new stuff, only happening with the beta map, right?

[wafflepotatopancake]

just to make sure - this is all new stuff, only happening with the beta map, right?

That is correct. I need to do another play through of the Mage Towers in the next few days to double check and see if those issues are consistent and replicable since those only popped up in my first and only trial of the beta.

[voodoo47]

checked the saves, the firemage is definitely stuck where he shouldn't be, and the door is gone for some reason, but didn't see anything unusual in the air tower save.

did some more testing, and I think I might now what is going on. here is a new beta map for you, check whether the pathfinding issues are better or worse.


//did the door disappear when you tried to open it, or was it already gone when you got there?

[wafflepotatopancake]

checked the saves, the firemage is definitely stuck where he shouldn't be, and the door is gone for some reason, but didn't see anything unusual in the air tower save.

did some more testing, and I think I might now what is going on. here is a new beta map for you, check whether the pathfinding issues are better or worse.


//did the door disappear when you tried to open it, or was it already gone when you got there?

The door was already gone.

I saved just before the mage in the air tower started doing his levitation trick, it was easily repeatable (for me) since by time I would creep over to the stairs, I was quicksaving and he was just passing under the elevator, and when I would quickload he would start flying. I have it on video but the quality is so bad you can't even really see him so it's not worth watching.

I'll give the beta map a go this morning, just got home.

[wafflepotatopancake]

Ok, I just finished up the second of two quick run throughs of the towers to see how everything worked out. On the first and second run, that Air mage is now sort of confused, he has a tendency to get stuck on the ledge above the door [picture 1], or start pathing oddly on the bottom floor of that room[picture 2], but he seems to fix himself with a quick save/load in the case of the door, and when he starts pathing weirdly (usually backwards) he seems to turn around at some point in his patrol and start going the right way like he's supposed to again. I've never seen one AI make so much trouble! If you don't time your quick save/load correctly and get him out of sync of the other mage it makes supreme damn near impossible far as I can tell (ghost is still ridiculously easy, I miss frst alerts!) but I suppose if I had had the patience to sit there and time it out I could have gotten him back on track with the other mage.

The mage in the fire tower was ok 1/2 times. The first time for some unknown reason he decided to get stuck on the 3rd metal plate where the stone floor is in the area he was originally stuck [picture 3]. I took a shot of him on the second run about where he got stuck, but he was NOT stuck on that play through. Not sure what caused him to get stuck in the first one, but AIs do get stuck occasionally in places and stop patrolling for no reason in more than just this mission.

I did stumble across something new though. Apparently also in the fire tower 2 floors up in the second lava room that the emergency exit connects to, for some reason the patrolling mages always get stuck in the same spot by some stairs. I noticed it on the first beta map you created, but only one mage got stuck and I ignored it since it wasn't uncommon. On the new map though, both mages seem to get stuck [picture 4] there, or at least in both tests of your latest beta map.

The door to the central tower from the Air tower is back, and I didn't notice any other anomalies that I can think of.

Link to pictures: http://imgur.com/946j28H,cTev22D,TDtd2nK,fMioAR1

[voodoo47]

you did all these tests with the very latest beta map, right?

[voodoo47]

all right, three sets are available for testing;

-vanilla map + fixup dml (did find a dml solution that works in the end)
-newdark optimized map with recalculate pathfind
-newdark optimized map with recalculate pathfind and obj pathable removed

if possible, test all of them, and see which one produces the most desirable results. note: make sure to delete the dml once you are done with the first map.

[wafflepotatopancake]

I DL'd all 3 versions, and decided to start with optimize_nopath.7z and it was spot on perfect~! Granted, I did it just plain ghosting so I had plenty of first alerts, but everything seemed absolutely perfect, the earth tower mage didn't die from the platform crushing him for once, the air tower mages were patrolling together, the door was there, and none of the fire tower mages got stuck. Providing that the interior of the central tower remained unchanged since I haven't checked it out in all of these tests since it never had any problems, it will be completely perfect.

[voodoo47]

sound good - did not expect such flawless sailing. anyway, you can skip optimize_pf.7z, that one is definitely not working properly, but do test vanilla_dml.7z if you can - would like to know whether the dml fix was enough to solve the issue with the firemage being stuck without breaking anything.

[wafflepotatopancake]

sound good - did not expect such flawless sailing. anyway, you can skip optimize_pf.7z, that one is definitely not working properly, but do test vanilla_dml.7z if you can - would like to know whether the dml fix was enough to solve the issue with the firemage being stuck without breaking anything.

Well, I was so excited that everything looked right on the surface I gave it a go trying to supreme ghost it. It seems like a lot of the problems are (much like the Burricks in The Haunted Cathedral) all based on how long it takes you to get to the trouble spots. When I just plain ghosted I made the run ~10m faster than I do supreming. When I supremed, the trouble spots popped back up again (the air mages separated but I was able to get past it, the fire mage in the first lava room get stuck under the stairs again but I managed to get past him too). Made things substantially more difficult, but it wasn't impossible...

...UNTIL THE VERY END OF THE MISSION (Seriously, I wanted to cry). The very last guard in the entire mission I noticed once before got stuck staring at the sewers exit to end the mission. It was quite honestly (and its entirely my fault for not checking him every other time) something I never thought about or considered happening again, and yet there he was. Less than 15 seconds away from the end of the mission and because he bugged I failed perfect supreme ghost. It was heartbreaking, so now I have to do it again anyway.

Just sucks.

If you have 5 hours to kill you can watch the Beta Testing of optimize_nopath with a full run (There are a lot of times you can skip ahead obviously, since I tend to get antsy and get caught, and you can skip a good almost hour when I go back to the earth tower for the talisman, since I screwed up twice and had to do that part over again twice). I can't remember every NPC that got stuck I'm sure, but I do recall the 2 mages in the Library getting stuck in the statue room as well on top of the fire mage. If nothing else it is proof of concept that it is perfect supreme ghostable until that last freaking guard. ;_; http://www.twitch.tv/wafflepotatopancake/c/2376249

Either way, I'll give the vanilla map a go maybe tonight or tomorrow. I need a break (and I wish I drank because to fail so close to the end I want to get wasted to block out the memory).

Hopefully I can learn from this catastrophic failure though and be a better beta tester.

[voodoo47]

The very last guard in the entire mission I noticed once before got stuck staring at the sewers exit to end the mission.

this is a nasty original bug, basically one of the patrol points missing a link to the next one. in the original engine, the guard is somehow able to make it to the next patrol point, most of the time. under NewDark, he acts properly, stopping when no next waypoint is found. fixed.

will also update the dml included with the vanilla mission. //it's up. not completely done yet, but it should fix the incomplete path of the final guard.

[wafflepotatopancake]

this is a nasty original bug, basically one of the patrol points missing a link to the next one. in the original engine, the guard is somehow able to make it to the next patrol point, most of the time. under NewDark, he acts properly, stopping when no next waypoint is found. fixed.

will also update the dml included with the vanilla mission. //it's up. not completely done yet, but it should fix the incomplete path of the final guard.

I did the vanilla version of the mission (with the revision you posted today that you indicate is incomplete) start to finish today, video here (only took 3hrs this time): http://www.twitch.tv/wafflepotatopancake/b/412797389

I like the pathing of NPCs better in the vanilla version. None of them got stuck doing spin moves at certain points in their path like in the other version, it was one smooth continuous flow of motion. For the most part, everything went well.

The mage in the earth tower still gets crushed to death (which most of us expect anyway). Its never game breaking but if he dies at an unlucky point or you fail to move his body into the shadows it always will trigger an alert (I've seen first and second) from the upper mage. It's not a big issue I'd worry about, its just an oddity we all know exists.

The two mages in the air tower were close together, but not as close as they should be. By far this was the hardest point in the entire mission to supreme ghost because they were perfectly out of sync enough to cover watching my every move from any angle. I think almost an hour of that video is trial and error getting past them, which I managed by sheer luck. The window to make it past them was by milliseconds.

The position the two of them patrol in seems to be completely random (I'm certain of it at this point, seeing as I've quite seriously run this mission at least 12 times before you fixed the stuck mage, and now however many times I did beta testing). I have a feeling that somehow when you enter the air tower courtyard (or perhaps the air tower itself) one of the mages starts close enough that you move into range to start him patrolling, but the other is too far out of range to start patrolling, which gets them out of sync. I can't think of any other explanation at this point.

Other than that, the fire tower was almost perfect. The two mages in the last lava room before the talisman got stuck at the bottom of the stairs, but that was it. When they get stuck is just makes getting through that room ridiculously easy, so it's not terribly game breaking. Still, I like them to patrol since when they do it actually makes that room a hell of a challenge sometimes depending on their positions.

There was a missing door up on the 3rd floor (the floor where Captain Regalio is) at the far end of the hall on the left. I'd never seen that before, so it must have just been a random bug.

Most unfortunately, it seems the taffer gods have a grudge against me I can't shake. Once again, I got all the way to the end of the mission with perfect supreme intact (minus 1 pickpocket I missed somewhere I could have gone back for once I knew) and all that was left was pickpocketing the last two guards and exiting the level. The good news was, the guard by the sewers was patrolling as he should. The bad news is, the archer that patrols the same area as the sword guard in the basement got stuck on a light down there in the torture chamber just before the locked door, and was impossible to pass without him going in a 3rd level alert (attack mode), meaning once again, I failed perfect supreme ghost seconds away from the end of the mission. There was sadly no way to dislodge him.

I don't know why I bothered to leave coins in the Watchman's grave last mission, since at this point I swear the game is doing this to me out of sheer spite. In the end though, I feel the vanilla overhaul had the best pathing in general since when AI choose to suddenly do a spin move in their patrol in the other versions; it just plain looks weird and results in a ton of busts that shouldn't happen had they not decided to take up interpretive dance.

[klatremus]

I'd like to take a spin at Ghost-testing the original missions as well, seeing as all these updates are being released. I'm sure there are some areas that have changed slightly. I'm determined to wait for Gecko's texture patch though.

wafflepotatepancake: Impressed with your patience and determination in your Supreme runs. Watched a few of your videos also. Keep it up! Too bad with all the guard glitches in mages. I knew about that last archer going into it way back when I did my original run. I always thought he was supposed to stop there, but I guess the missing loop link makes sense.

I saw you didn't manage to get the purse on the table by the stationary archer from the outside. I downloaded the latest TFix and noticed (like you did) that the lighting is slightly different and I couldn't end up getting it using the route I did 8 years ago. I did however manage to get it from the outside using an alternate route a bit closer to the window. The archer had to be turned away from the purse all the time to avoid a 1st alert. Leaned in through he window corner and grabbed it. Got back using the same method alert-free. Problem is, if you go in behind him, you have to nudge him forward since Garrett doesn't fit. Nudging is an engine exploit and unfortunately not allowed in Supreme mode. You should give it a try again going from the front. I did it after the patrolling archer had returned.

Happy taffing!

[voodoo47]

yeah, the waypoints in the torture chamber are a mess. still thinking what should I do there. will have a look at those firemages as well, getting stuck is bad, maybe they also have broken waypoints.

where does the problem with earth mage getting crushed happen? a screenshot or a timepoint of your video would help.


//the archer getting stuck is an original issue, I believe he was getting stuck in the original game as well (maybe not always, but the potential is there). easy dml fix (will upload later). the firemages stopping is a different issue, no idea why it's happening. //ok, fixable by moving the only waypoint that is on the ground floor to the iron ledge on floor up. while this is not completely proper, I believe a not completely proper patrol path that works is preferable to one that doesn't.

btw, when you found the firemage stuck under the stairs, was he already stuck, or did you manage to see getting stuck right before you?

//the dml is up, should fix the two stuck firemages and that archer as well. download, replace the old one, restart level, have fun.

[wafflepotatopancake]

...

I saw you didn't manage to get the purse on the table by the stationary archer from the outside. I downloaded the latest TFix and noticed (like you did) that the lighting is slightly different and I couldn't end up getting it using the route I did 8 years ago. I did however manage to get it from the outside using an alternate route a bit closer to the window. The archer had to be turned away from the purse all the time to avoid a 1st alert. Leaned in through he window corner and grabbed it. Got back using the same method alert-free. Problem is, if you go in behind him, you have to nudge him forward since Garrett doesn't fit. Nudging is an engine exploit and unfortunately not allowed in Supreme mode. You should give it a try again going from the front. I did it after the patrolling archer had returned.

Happy taffing!

You are absolutely correct. I didn't even think about it, that guard is weird in his positioning sometimes. 9 times out of 10 you are right, and he does get shoved as you pass behind him. Once in a blue moon though (and I can't repeat it, it seems random) he somehow is far enough forward to pass behind him without needing to push, its odd. I think the first time I ran Mage Towers I had this happen but not since, so I never even gave it a thought. I think I did at one point have a go at getting the purse from the front since the guard already completed his patrol, but I didn't pull it off and I eventually gave up out of frustration and tiredness (My first mage towers run I did the loot first which took my about 6 or 7 hours, only to get to the bugged fire mage causing me to rage quit and not play for days). I'll have to try again (in substantially less time from all this practice).

Frankly, I'll be happy to never do it that way ever again. I don't know if its audible in the video, but the guard WAY in the back by the library door actually can see you going behind the other guard no matter which way he is facing if you don't go as slow as possible. I got busted there a ton in the video trying to go faster (I get antsy!) than I should have, and he will first alert every time. You have to have the volume WAY up when playing to hear him though, but he does alert. I wonder how many other places that people (myself included) had gotten first alerts and never heard them because it was just so painfully far away. I always play with the volume way up now to make sure I know. I think that guard is some sort of superguard though. I've never met another with such amazing eyesight, he should get a promotion!

Truth be told, I've been winging all of these except on parts I have no idea how it was pulled off (the first I remember getting stuck on was Lord Bafford's spiders). Apparently I like to do a lot of things the painfully difficult way. I'm sure you saw my blundering attempts to get the cup on the third floor of The Mage Towers without crate stacking (which I learned later is how you did it). The first time I tried for it it took me about an hour and a half to figure out how to get it (or at least make the initial eureka moment grab) and another half an hour to repeat it after I got caught from an unlucky AI pivot.

I also recall in the Thieves guild (which I need to re-record along with The Sword, both videos got deleted before I saved them I'll probably do TG today or tomorrow) getting the two pickpockets in the casino, you used a crate to sneak in. I had gotten stuck there my first try so when I researched it I went back and tried the crate thing, but the AI was so painfully touchy I found it impossible to drop the crate without an alert, so I decided to just mantle into the window and got it the hard way (which I'm not looking forward to repeating). I'm glad I'm not the only one to notice how light levels changed ever so subtly in all the missions though, but just enough to make things significantly harder. I can't figure out how to get past Thom now without a second level alert, the bed is just a hair too bright in the corner now to hide in and only trigger a first. I saw the method you used (with a crate) but you managed to hide in the corner, I couldn't. I ended up AI nudging him to get by.

I had one more question too I couldn't figure out. In the Haunted Cathedral, did you ever figure out how to open the Keeper's Library without alerting the spider? I saw a video of someone trying to do it but they couldn't (though they thought they had until they watched the replay) and is it truly impossible? I figured out on my own that you only need to be standing over the metal keyhole for the door to open when the torches light, so I was making shots at various speeds from the rafters above and running to the center before it struck to open the door. It gave me hope that it was possible from up there, but I'm not sure. I also thought about grabbing the crates nearby and stacking them in that tiny hallway that connects that the spider steps into to try and muffle the sound, but I was too tired to experiment and just finished the mission (which I have to do again now anyway to keep my stats consistent).

I have to say though, I'm honored you took a look at some of my videos. I decided to try and supreme as a personal challenge for myself, so while I'm certainly not a master thief, I can say at least say I managed to pull it off. I've long forgotten most of the levels in Thief, so most times its almost like my first time ever playing a level unless something catastrophic happens and I have to repeat it (I spent 3 hours in the bonehoard on my first attempt trying to get the vase near the 4 sleeper zombies, the darn area just would not clear out so I gave up. I'm glad I went for that piece of loot right away...).

Even with the amazingly touchy AI now, I discovered that playing allowing first alerts is ridiculously easy, and I don't think I can go back. I'm not sure thats a good thing for my sanity. I think though the reason I keep having bad luck and failing seconds from the end though is maybe the game knows I screwed up at that purse, and doesn't want me to call it done when it isn't, so it keeps making me do it all over again. If I never see another mage again though it will be too soon! Almost makes me miss the Hammerites...almost.

yeah, the waypoints in the torture chamber are a mess. still thinking what should I do there. will have a look at those firemages as well, getting stuck is bad, maybe they also have broken waypoints.

where does the problem with earth mage getting crushed happen? a screenshot or a timepoint of your video would help.


...

btw, when you found the firemage stuck under the stairs, was he already stuck, or did you manage to see getting stuck right before you?

...

I just checked, happens at 12m16s in, you can hear his audible death cry, then I run over and grab his body and haul it into the shadows.

As for the fire mage getting stuck under the stairs (which did not happen in the vanilla run) he got stuck when I did a quick load to try again at making it past him undetected. I think he decided to do one of those random walk in a circle pivots and got stuck that way, but I'm not sure. He was operating fine though until I quick loaded. A similar thing happened with that air mage that was levitating. Everything would be going fine, but if I failed and quick loaded after a certain point in his patrol, he would float and reverse direction. I've had him reverse direction on the second floor for no apparent reason too. That's why the vanilla pathing seems to be the best, there were no oddities that I saw for the most part with quick loads.

[voodoo47]

fixed. with this dml, the mission should be free of serious bugs (almost two hundred lines of fixes/code). so, if you have another 3 hours..

also, pinpoint those disappearing doors for me (video time), if you can.

[klatremus]

Wafflepotatopancake: Yeah the reports on my website should still be valid for the original missions, that is until NewDark came and ruined it all... The youtube videos you're talking about are by Tarvis79. You should definitely check them out, as they cover all 3 games and they are excellent. As far as I know those are the only Supreme Ghosting Let's Plays out there besides yours, and they follow my website reports very closely. Once I get around to it, I might update each report with a NewDark section at the end outlining the differences, if any. But again, I'm waiting for Gecko's texture pack.

The top floor bedroom took a good while to figure out I remember. But it was also very rewarding once I got it.

You know that non-loot pickpockets aren't required for Perfect Supreme right? Tarvis79's videos show all of them just because he is a kleptomaniac () but they can all be skipped. In fact, all objects picked have to be returned to pass Supreme.

Thom couldn't be passed without busting Supreme anyway, so if nudging is required, that's ok as a last resort. Interesting that the bed is now too bright. If the changing light is a recurring problem, that might be the first serious NewDark flaw, at least for Ghosters. Or I guess we can see it as an added challenge.

I never could get past THC without alerting the spider. I remain convinced it's impossible, at least without extreme engine exploits. Tarvis79 came to the same conclusion, as you heard.

Happy taffing!

[wafflepotatopancake]

...

You know that non-loot pickpockets aren't required for Perfect Supreme right? Tarvis79's videos show all of them just because he is a kleptomaniac () but they can all be skipped. In fact, all objects picked have to be returned to pass Supreme.

...

You understand then, I HAVE to have those pickpockets! If I don't get all the loot and all the pickpockets, then I feel like I've failed...I can't resist the siren song of perfect stats even trying for supreme ghost, even if it busts it in the end.

...

Thom couldn't be passed without busting Supreme anyway, so if nudging is required, that's ok as a last resort. Interesting that the bed is now too bright. If the changing light is a recurring problem, that might be the first serious NewDark flaw, at least for Ghosters. Or I guess we can see it as an added challenge.

...

Added challenge is an understatement. I went back to do the Thieves Guild tonight, and I swear it got brighter since I was last there. I ended up limiting myself for now to just figuring out the casino, and that alone took far, far too long. I managed to get the purse and key in the first window by using a rope arrow and the crate without an alert, since apparently this time just sliding up to the window was getting a first alert from being too bright. Garrett is being terribly uncooperative with mantling, I'm wondering if I have t-fix properly installed now since I know I used to be able to mantle inside that window with ease, and now Garrett seems to be on strike when it comes to all things mantling. I got the other key from the other side too (I can't say without an alert since I was getting lazy and just let first alerts happen after I succeeded the first time and had proof of concept that it was possible).

For the life of me though, I can't figure out how to get over to the area with the secret door without and alert. I'm pretty sure I used to be able to very quickly pass through the doorway by the 2 gamblers and 2 guards into the shadows without an alert, but tonight I just couldn't pull it off, it was just that smidge too bright.

I'm going to reinstall t-fix and see what happens, hopefully Garrett decides he feels like mantling things again after his little hissy fit and not doing it protest. It can't hurt at this point.

Edit: I went ahead and did a fresh install of thief and tfix, and the thieves guild is back to how it was, with it being a hair darker and Garrett decided he felt like mantling. I wonder now what I did to make my game insanely hard now, but I'm glad it's fixed.

[voodoo47]

mantling does work differently, and it should be much easier than before, if anything.

[wafflepotatopancake]

mantling does work differently, and it should be much easier than before, if anything.

I had no problems before mantling certain objects which is why I suspected somehow I messed up the install (I did a reinstall at some point I forget to fix a sound problem), and did a clean reinstall last night. Interestingly though, I find that the Thieves Guild is a crapshoot now. The first time I tested it after the install, I didn't have overly sensitive guards just testing in the casino, but this morning I went to play it through for real and all of a sudden they got super touchy again. I'm glad mantling worked in both cases, but its really weird to me that how alert they are varies. I happen to have the really touchy version on video (or both if you count the "I refuse to mantle version") if you want to take a look. I'm really curious what is going on now to cause this. I had to resort to using a rope arrow to get in position by the window.

Edit: This is really, really weird. I made a quick save in the patch of perfect darkness in the Thieves Guild mission casino area in the guard post window farthest from the secret door with the purse on the shelf. With just Tfix installed on a clean install, the AIs are incredibly touchy, and the purse it unreachable from the patch of darkness and impossible to reach without the AI seeing you and losing their minds.

If I take the same fresh install and use TGTool on http://www.saleck.net/creations/gamefixguides/thief.php (just to get it running really) then load *the same exact quick save* then suddenly the purse is reachable from the patch of darkness (but there are no new textures added).

I'm completely bewildered at this point. I don't think you've changed Tfix since I first downloaded it the first time in May right? I didn't have this problems the first go around.

[Tobias]

These two files seem to be culprits because when I reinstall Tfix and deselect all options in the install, the game still retains the new AI texture and models as well as the skybox. All other changes like Garret's arm, the few ground/wall textures, water and the objects all revert back to the originals for Thief 1

When I want to go back to original T1 Textures, AI and Objects all I have to do is remove the MODS folder. However the AI and Sky remain patched. I've found that in the PATCHES folder the Mesh.crf (for AI Gaurds and stuff) and the Interface.crf (for the sky) once removed will now revert everything else back to original textures and models.

Is this a bug or did I screw something up?

[voodoo47]

this is intentional. the unfinished original models are replaced by their completed versions LGS released later, and the original marshmallow puke sky is being replaced for the sake of not contracting eye cancer.

when installed, TFix applies a set of fixes that are considered basic, are not selectable, and will always be used. if a user does not like this, he should use just pure NewDark (as basically, that's what TFix is when you remove both the patches and mods folders).

[Tobias]

Does this work for Thief 2? I don't think I really want to mess with a whole install but is there any way I can have that gorgeous water and objects mod for my thief 2 game? Will this override custom objects in thief 2 FMs?