Reply With QuoteI'm playing thief 3 for the first time. Should I play it with thief 3 gold or is it better if I'll play without it first?
I think just adding the actual fixes for broken textures, without any amount of upscaling, would be a sensible option, but I'm not sure I understand the process Akven followed.Originally Posted by Csimbi
I'm playing thief 3 for the first time. Should I play it with thief 3 gold or is it better if I'll play without it first?
I see no reason to not play T3 Gold - with the default configuration it's the same game with fewer level transitions and some bug fixes.
But if you haven't played any of the Thief games better play the first mission on the Easy difficulty setting, to activate the tutorial elements. At the briefing for the second mission you'll probably want to switch to Normal or higher.
Hello again,
i was absent for a quite long time here (about 1.5 year) and i am glad that you are all still there. I am coming back to work on T3 mod focused mostly on graphic stuff (renderer, animations etc.) @snobel as you had dive deep into T3 code (probably the deepest in our community) i have a questions for you - have you documented your discoveries related to it? Which tools are you using (I assume debugger and/or disassembler) and how your workflow looks? Currently i am working with X64dbg and IDA with T3 and DX2 (as i am focused on analyzing Flesh render) but its quite tough challenge for me (previously i was working on games which many external dll's functions so it was definitely easier). My long-term goals are:
- reversing Flesh renderer to allow implementing at least some modern graphic features (like soft shadows [top goal - i simply love how Dark Mod looks with these] SSAO, Parallax mapping etc)
- changing 1st person animations for player - body awareness should be optional feature as its IMO affecting immersion and gameplay in bad way)
- adding high quality versions of legacy objects (like flashbombs etc)
- replacing pre-rendered cutscenes with new one, Rustmonkey's style
If anyone has any suggestions or so, please let me know. @snobel are you working on new version of Sneaky Upgrade? Do anyone know if there are some plans to merge City sections (we have T3 Gold, so this gonna be Platinum?)
For figuring stuff out I've been using OllyDbg mostly but Ghidra has been useful as a supplement. I've tried x64dbg a while ago and found it promising but no match for OllyDbg yet. For the actual patching I've made some tools which let me write assembly patches at specific virtual addresses and then run a script to produce a modified binary.have you documented your discoveries related to it? Which tools are you using (I assume debugger and/or disassembler) and how your workflow looks? Currently i am working with X64dbg and IDA with T3 and DX2
No real documentation, I'm afraid. I have a lot of notes, but they're not very organized... I'll of course help if I can but I've never really worked on renderer related stuff.
Yeah, I would hardly know how to even approach that. I'm limited by a lack of graphics programming knowledge. It'll be great if you can make some progress on that front.as i am focused on analyzing Flesh render) but its quite tough challenge for me
This is the one of the Holy Grails (the other being fixing the 'floating bug'). You'll be a hero if you can pull it off.changing 1st person animations for player - body awareness should be optional feature as its IMO affecting immersion and gameplay in bad way)
A new version is long overdue. I had a T3 overdose of sorts a couple of years back and still haven't fully recovered.are you working on new version of Sneaky Upgrade?But there's an old beta floating around, I should at least get around to doing a proper release of that.
Funny you should ask.Do anyone know if there are some plans to merge City sections (we have T3 Gold, so this gonna be Platinum?)That's the only T3 related thing I've been working on lately. I have a plan to merge the maps without using T3Ed (mostly), instead using a couple of homegrown tools. Since at this stage it is mostly a coding project it's basically me working on it, with Beleg Cúthalion as a consultant.
Currently I can merge all the exteriors + Garrett's apartment building and get a map that will build and run. Next step is writing a tool to auto-fix a lot of the scripts that are now horribly broken... I expect it will all take a couple of years. If it works out, it'll become a new version of T3 Gold.
Thank you for detailed answer. I am glad that you and few other members are still there.
I have started my RE journey by using x64dbg so for me is quite opposite - but for sure OllyDbg has a lot more plugins etc. I was testing Ghidra for a while but GUI was problematic for me after switching from IDA. There is tool called Cerbero Suite, which includes so called Native GUI for Ghidra, which is similar to IDA, if you are interested:
For figuring stuff out I've been using OllyDbg mostly but Ghidra has been useful as a supplement. I've tried x64dbg a while ago and found it promising but no match for OllyDbg yet. For the actual patching I've made some tools which let me write assembly patches at specific virtual addresses and then run a script to produce a modified binary.
For me its also quite new area. In the past I was playing rather with cracking apps (removing copy protection, only for fun) and exploiting it. Currently i am focused on file formats reverse engineering and you have a lot of achievements in this area afaik (like creating tools for matlibs etc). Maybe you have documented some of T3 formats (manually or in tools like Kai tai struct)? This would help me a lot. I am planning to create Git repo, with wiki documenting stuff related to Flesh renderer and more general Unreal engine used.No real documentation, I'm afraid. I have a lot of notes, but they're not very organized... I'll of course help if I can but I've never really worked on renderer related stuff.
This one looks possible in realistic timeline, but for sure will break some things - like player shadow in 1st person etc. DX2 is not using body awareness for player and movement or more general gameplay is much more fluent this way. I was playing Dishonored a lot last months and noticed that devs (Harvey Smith etc.) didn't decide to implement body awareness there (despite much better technical abilities than during T3 development) - probably because this breaks immersion instead improving it.This is the one of the Holy Grails (the other being fixing the 'floating bug'). You'll be a hero if you can pull it off.
I keep my fingers crossed! Its impressive (and motivating) what you have achieved in fixing this game. I was playing with clear T3 last weeks and this was huge pain in the ass in comparison to SU.A new version is long overdue. I had a T3 overdose of sorts a couple of years back and still haven't fully recovered.
WooohFunny you should ask.. Thats a great news for community! Doing this programmatically seems to be a master challenge. I assume that you have really DEEPunderstanding of map format and interdependencies etc. Am I right that you were able to join all City streets? This is about eight or nine maps as far as remember so HUGE respect for that. I can't even imagine how many scripts need to be fixed (as the same maps are used in every night and are quite dynamic night-by-night). Are you planning to maybe post some free play demo or sth like that? This map would be probably hugest semi-OM in Thief history... Good luck with this! Few years ago i have got and loose idea to expand some city maps by custom stuff (like accessible buildings, side quests etc) as City sections seemed to be drastically small in comparison to joined maps from T3 Gold; never gone with this any further than planning (and writing scenarios). Last time i have played some great Dark Mod missions (like Iris - i recommend it to every Thief fan) and thought that would be great to have such complexity in Deadly shadows - maybe this happen in future.
Thank you again for detailed answer.
Welcome back, man!
If we can do that with DXIW too it would be a legacy for the future generations of taffers and DX fans
The dealbreaker with x64dbg was a lack of real memory breakpoints. If it has those now, I'll definitely try it again. And you're right that Ghidra's GUI is a bit awkward.
A more coding related wiki is a great idea. If you get that set up I hope it'll motivate me to distill some of my notes into useful information and contribute that. I should also try to get some of my source code online.Currently i am focused on file formats reverse engineering and you have a lot of achievements in this area afaik (like creating tools for matlibs etc). Maybe you have documented some of T3 formats (manually or in tools like Kai tai struct)? This would help me a lot. I am planning to create Git repo, with wiki documenting stuff related to Flesh renderer and more general Unreal engine used.
People who want this feature (me included) are probably not too concerned with the player shadow and more with movement being similar to classic Thief or TDM. I agree this should be a realistic-ish undertaking: figure out how movement works in DX2, then graft that onto T3... (But easier said than done.This one looks possible in realistic timeline, but for sure will break some things - like player shadow in 1st person etc. DX2 is not using body awareness for player and movement or more general gameplay is much more fluent this way.
Btw. I thought of a thirdSpecial LootHoly Grail: Make the game load new levels without restarting itself. It would make some issues just go away.
I'm working with the .t3d format that you can export from T3Ed. There were some bugs and limitations in both export and import that I had to fix in T3Ed, but it appears to be working now. The .t3d format is text, so it's much easier to work with than the .unr files. (The .t3d files could probably also help in an effort to reverse the .unr/.gmp files.)I assume that you have really DEEPunderstanding of map format and interdependencies etc
Only the exteriors, so six maps plus Garrett's apartment. For gameplay reasons I'd really like to also merge the Keeper Library and Fort Ironwood, but things get weird if I try that. So either there are undiscovered limitations in T3Ed, or there's a bug in my tool. (Hoping for the latter...)Am I right that you were able to join all City streets? This is about eight or nine maps as far as remember
I think the GameDay related stuff will mostly sort itself out. The clearly broken scripts are those with a condition of "when map starts..." etc. But I believe I have fixes for those that can be applied automatically. I'm more worried about stuff like the end game, where there's several instances of Gamall in the map.I can't even imagine how many scripts need to be fixed (as the same maps are used in every night and are quite dynamic night-by-night).
There will definitely be test versions, where you can play only the City segments in FM form, skipping the proper missions. If, in the end, the project doesn't meet the standards for inclusion in T3 Gold, I'll just release it like that, as an FM-like demo.Are you planning to maybe post some free play demo or sth like that?
There was also the idea of turning the Inn mission into a larger map. Expansions like that would be great in T3 Gold, as long as they fit well with the original map design - and were optional.Few years ago i have got and loose idea to expand some city maps by custom stuff (like accessible buildings, side quests etc) as City sections seemed to be drastically small in comparison to joined maps from T3 Gold
The combined City map has a couple of missing stretches that I hope T3 mappers will eventually fill in - but I'm keeping optional teleporters in for players who dislike non-original sections.
Wait, what? You're saying it should be possible to somehow port the traditional first person system from DX2 into T3? That would be amazing!!This one looks possible in realistic timeline, but for sure will break some things - like player shadow in 1st person etc. DX2 is not using body awareness for player and movement or more general gameplay is much more fluent this way. I was playing Dishonored a lot last months and noticed that devs (Harvey Smith etc.) didn't decide to implement body awareness there (despite much better technical abilities than during T3 development) - probably because this breaks immersion instead improving it.
I had posed that question here years ago after poking around the two games myself...I'm not a coder so I had no clue what I was looking at...but as I recall, folks said it was impossible. I figured there must be a way. I'm really excited by the possibility of this one!!
Did you try Cheat Engine?The dealbreaker with x64dbg was a lack of real memory breakpoints. If it has those now, I'll definitely try it again. And you're right that Ghidra's GUI is a bit awkward.
It's a swiss army knife type of reversing tool with a very good debugger (a large variety of breakpoints, tracing, data analysis tools, you name it). It even has a kernel-mode VM for debugging - though I never needed that.
You can write ASM and LUA scripts to change the code directly or mess with something.
It takes some learning (it not easy to find advanced features right away), but I get everything I need in there.
It has a Wiki for basic stuff and an active forum to get help and support (with game-specific discussions on third party sites like fearless).
Highly recommended.
Last edited by Csimbi; 29th Apr 2022 at 09:03.
I haven't yet - but trying it out has been on the to-do list since I realized that it can do much more than just give you more loot. Your recommendation is noted.
I am extremely interested in these developments, especially porting true 1st person into Deadly Shadows. Keep us posted.
Apparently I'm at least 10 years behind on T3S - for no particular reason I installed my GOG version this evening and discovered I couldn't lockpick the first door, and ended up here from the GOG forums post - I should have known...
Fantastic work snobel - I was initially worried the game would be unplayable - but now it's perfectly happy on my 3440 by 1440 screen.
I think I have to thank some other people (I recognised someone referenced in the installer) as well but haven't had time to browse through everything yet.
Thanks.
Is it intended that enforcers are cloaked everywhere but Stonemarket Plaza?
It's a known bug. But somehow it was not on my T3 Gold buglist so thanks for the reminder.
So I just finished my first TDS playthrough ever using this mod package and I loved it! I was blown away by how much I enjoyed TDS considering many Thief fans see it as the dark sheep of the original trilogy, but I'm sure that wouldn't have been possible without all the tweaks and bug fixes that came with this mod. Out of curiosity, do you have any future plans for this project? Are there any place besides TTLG with an active community still working on mods for TDS? Thank you very much.
Last edited by Oregano; 29th Dec 2022 at 21:49.
I'm hoping to release an update this spring. Not much new stuff in the code patch, but hopefully a bugfix update for T3 Gold.
In a year or so, if we're lucky, another T3G update to include the merged City.
I'm not aware of any sites other than TTLG with active T3 modding going on but if you find any, do let me know.
Just wanted to chime in to say a big thank you for this mod. I played TDS vanilla through a few times, years ago, and finally do another playthrough now with the Sneaky Upgrade. It's absolutely fantastic.
Thanks - on behalf of myself and the modders.
Hello! I play on XP 32bit. But Setup_T3SneakyUpgrade_Full_1.1.10.exe writes: it's not win32 app.
Sorry, XP is not supported anymore - not because I don't want to but because Microsoft's newer toolsets don't support it. So I can't have both bleeding edge C++ and XP support.
The installer software I use also doesn't support XP anymore. The error message is weird though. The installer exe is still 32-bit so that part is not a problem.
All I can suggest is to use an older version. I don't know the latest which does support XP but you can get them all from a link in the first post.
Thank you for answer!
1.1.9.1 was able to be installed on XP but SneakyTweaker does not launch (dwmapi.dll not found). Can you take a look at which version not requires availability of this dll?
And my inner perfectionist asks: is it possible to center the inscriptions and back-triangle?
That DLL must be a dependency of the toolkit used - which was upgraded after 1.1.8, so you can try that.
Hm, don't know what you mean - probably need a screenshot.And my inner perfectionist asks: is it possible to center the inscriptions and back-triangle?
If possible, I could fix it myself.
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