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Thread: Prezent by Timon

  1. #101
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2005
    Quote Originally Posted by Hit Deity View Post
    I just don't see the need to wait
    Full version of first mission and, of cause, the second mission ! And may be 3.. 4..

  2. #102
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Lost in the BSP...
    Sure, ok..

  3. #103
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2008
    Location: Santiago / Chile
    Sure that Timon said no to someone who's willing to translate the mision, maybe he missunderstod the mail and he thought that we want HIM to translate the missio and he said no to that.

    just wandering.

  4. #104
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2012
    Here's a little Christmas Prezent

    Walkthrough

    Last year I asked Timon if I could release a Google translated English version of this mission but my request was declined, he said he would prefer to release his own version one day, if he ever gets around to finishing it, so sadly I can not pass around the translated zip I made, but the walkthrough I have made does include translations of the goals and explains the gist of the most important conversations that occur, but in keeping with Timon's request I have not included the full translations, just enough for players to understand what happens. I have also included translations of keys, objects and I made a map, hopefully enough for you guys to both play and appreciate how good this mission really is.

    I suggest players read page 1 of the walkthrough before playing but not page 2. Page 2 is an overview of the goals with explanations of what has just occurred, so you may find it helpful to print page 2 off and keep it by your computer as you play so when something important happens you can easily refer to it.

    Enjoy!

    Happy Christmas.

    Edit: dml to fix broken 'Rob a Cop' goal when playing on hard, courtesy baeuchlein

    Code:
    DML1
    
    //T2 FM: Prezent by Timon / Fixes: miss25.mis.dml
    
    // Make the Sheriff's badge "disappear" only on easiest difficulty; it is
    // required to finish the mission on both of the higher levels
    // (including Hard).
    +ObjProp 2831 "DiffDestroy"
    {
            "quest var values" 0
    }
    Last edited by fortuni; 24th Dec 2023 at 21:15.

  5. #105
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2003
    Location: Switzerland
    AAhhhh, Fortuni !!!!

    Thank you so much!

    Merry Christmas.

  6. #106
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2012
    Your welcome!

    Feedback on the walkthrough and suggestions on how I can improve it would be appreciated.

  7. #107
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2014
    I really liked that mission. I made a translation myself by using google translator. Took me under 10 minutes. Wasn't, off course, the best but good enough to play and enjoy this mission. Can highly recommend everyone doing the little effort. This was a really good fm with a great optic.

  8. #108
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2004
    Location: Germany
    ... and with really interesting ideas, too! I also used an automatic translator for a first raw translation (to German, in this case), then refined it several times until everything seemed to fit well. Hopefully, the mission will one day be released, in a form appreciated and allowed by the author.

  9. #109
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2014
    Since you can speak english I would recommend you to translate such things into english. From my experience german translations with google or those on youtube aren't of a good quality. The german translation always seems to be a literal translation of the english version and not one from the initial source. I translated it into english and didn't changed anything (because of my laziness) and was able to understand everything and finish the mission.

    It's sad that the author declined the translation. Not everyone wants to do this little effort so the majority of the community is really missing out on a gem of a mission. But of course we need to respect it. Would like to see more missions of this author. I really liked this one.

  10. #110
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2012
    Polish is a difficult language to translate with online translation services the result is a mix of easily understood sentences and almost compete gibberish, so even when you do understand what Timon wrote it only makes sense up to a point and you need to reinvent large sections of paragraphs, knowing full well that you have lost a lot of the nuances and jokes he included.

    I used google to translate Abandoned Kingdom by ERH+ many years ago and the result was an extremely floral, even poetic, sounding set of books, it kind of worked but you can only really give it 3/10.

    There is an argument that we don't need authors permissions to translate missions once they have been released if you use an English-Polish proof reader, I however would be uncomfortable doing that with this mission when Timon has expressly said he wants to release his own updated mission one day.
    Last edited by fortuni; 25th Dec 2023 at 09:38.

  11. #111
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2009
    Location: Poland
    It's even harder when you think that Timon included many polish culture references inside this FM as well.

    Thanks again Fortuni.

    The file is now on Thief Guild page as well.

    Happy Holidays everyone.

  12. #112
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2003
    Location: Switzerland
    Hi Fortuni,

    because of your WT, I'm now in a better position to fully enjoy this little gem of a mission.
    The Overview is compiled in a reasonable order, showing what's going on, what is needed to do, and why. And the translations to the keys and other items of note are very helpful to understand what I picked up and where I have to use it. And last but not least: the map, neatly labelled - very useful.
    Good job, indeed!

    I'd like to take the opportunity to express my appreciation for all the reference guides, lootlists and maps you've made over the years. They are always a good help to complete a mission.

    Thanks again & greetings,
    Urumo

  13. #113
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2001
    Location: Marlboro, MA, USA
    I'm in the camp that says we would all be better off by having fortuni's translation. If Timon ever produces his own translation (which might never happen), then of course use that instead. But in the mean time, it's wrong to deny everyone a quality translation service.
    The Keep for Thief 1 and 2 FMs, Shadowdark for Thief 3 and Dark Mod FMs

  14. #114
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2004
    Location: Germany

    Quote Originally Posted by Komag View Post
    I'm in the camp that says we would all be better off by having fortuni's translation. If Timon ever produces his own translation (which might never happen), then of course use that instead.
    AFAIK, Timon also wanted to fix some (mostly minor) problems with "Prezent" first. Anyway, I prefer not to publish anything without the author's consent, especially since Timon seems to be still active on the Polish forums, and not vanished from the earth (or at least the internet) so far.

    Quote Originally Posted by Atropos
    Since you can speak english I would recommend you to translate such things into english. From my experience german translations with google or those on youtube aren't of a good quality. The german translation always seems to be a literal translation of the english version and not one from the initial source.
    When I decided to try a translation just for myself in order to play this good-looking mission, your ideas were also a theory of mine, and I chose the direct translation from Polish to German because I want to see whether that went as good as another case, where I went through a partially automatic and then refined english translation first, and then made a german translation of that. And indeed, back at that time (several years ago), the theory proved to be fact. However, some small experiments I made suggest that the quality of automatic translations has increased during the last years. Still, no automatic translation I had was ever perfect, and I always spent considerable time to extract the real meaning from the output. I'd say that polishing takes time, but speaking of polishing in this thread could cause misinterpretations, I guess.


    Quote Originally Posted by Marzec
    It's even harder when you think that Timon included many polish culture references inside this FM as well.
    Well, I almost certainly did not notice these, so they might have been lost in my translation.

  15. #115
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2014
    Quote Originally Posted by Komag View Post
    But in the mean time, it's wrong to deny everyone a quality translation service.
    It's not wrong just because it's not the best for you. It's the authors choice and he/she has every right to make that decission.

    @baeuchlein: I didn't meant that translating it first into english and then german would guarantee a better outcome. I meant that german translations in general are bad. Even translating from english to german usually doesn't get you a good result. Even with german and english being so similiar. Works better the other way around though. That's why I even as a german native speaker I prefer english translations.

  16. #116
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2001
    Location: Marlboro, MA, USA
    Maybe a comparison could be...what if a book author said you're not allowed to provide braille for blind people, or a painter said you're not allowed to describe the painting to anyone who can't see it for themselves. For a fan mission, what if I had a friend who speaks Polish, am I allowed to have him sit next to me and translate for me? No? Yes? If that's allowed, then why not my acquaintance on the internet? On the other hand, you can't just release your own recorded audio book version of any book you find published due to it being commercial with copyright, so maybe it's better to think of it like that.
    The Keep for Thief 1 and 2 FMs, Shadowdark for Thief 3 and Dark Mod FMs

  17. #117
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2012
    There's nothing wrong with your logic, the issue here is a moral one. Historically this community has always respected the wishes of authors, the argument for respecting authors wishes is that if you do something that one author expressively stated they didn't want you to do, it will more than likely make other authors, both past and present, consider the trust they place in this community not to alter their work.

    In his email to me Timon expressly stated he did not want me to release my translated version because I had used Google translate as that service is 90% rubbish. However he didn't expressly state that he would object to a proper Polish to English proof read translation, he only stated that one day he hoped to release his own English version of this mission. Obviously you can read into that what you will, but I decided not to release the version I made because it's overall pretty rubbish and because Timon asked me not to.

    But if someone else was to release a correctly translated version made by a Polish-English proof reader I would happily d/l and play that version, but I do not wish to be involved in such a project.

    The problem comes if Timon discovers a new zip has been released, if he takes offence and requests all hosting sites to remove the new zip would you do so? Would he also request the original Prezent_Pol.zip also be removed, would you do that as well?

    In the past when authors have withdrawn their missions all hosting sites have agreed to that request (apart from one instance that I can think of), so by releasing a translated zip you could potentially end up losing a mission from the Thief community entirely.

  18. #118
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2014
    Sry fortuni, but there is absolutely no logic behind Komags comparison. Not being able to speak polish is not a disabilty. To compare braille to an english translation therefor doesn't make any sense.

    US-Americans should just finally understand, that not everything is revolving around them and stop to expect that everything is going to happen according to their wishes. To accept the authors wishes what should be done with his/ her work is the bare minimum everyone should be able to do.

    You have fortunis walkthrough and the ability to translate it yourself. That should be enough.

  19. #119
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2001
    Location: Marlboro, MA, USA
    Those are decent points.

  20. #120
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2011
    can't find a downloadlink

  21. #121
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2004
    Location: Germany
    I found it at Darkfate.org at https://darkfate-org.translate.goog/...en&_x_tr_hl=en (automatic translation of the site built into the link). Use the second link (http://www.0815x.de/thief/FMs/Prezent.zip) for downloading, the first one appears not to work.

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