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Thread: The Dark Mod updated to 2.07!

  1. #276
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Sheffield, UK
    I never use the cursor keys I always use a mouse to turn or look & I mapped the movement keys to the keypad

    Movement is nice & smooth, I don't have to think about where I'm going

    I still lean in the chair to look round corners though, which my OH thinks this is highly amusing

  2. #277
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2002
    Location: Central Texas
    Quote Originally Posted by Esme View Post
    I never use the cursor keys I always use a mouse to turn or look & I mapped the movement keys to the keypad

    Movement is nice & smooth, I don't have to think about where I'm going

    I still lean in the chair to look round corners though, which my OH thinks this is highly amusing
    I do the same, and I once told someone, quite sharply, to "hush, or the guards would hear you!" Was rather embarrassing at the time (though funny now,) especially how she just couldn't stop laughing at the time.

  3. #278
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2010
    Also, turning round 360 degrees in Thief might take about 200 keystrokes. Thatīs what makes Thief so smooth in the end. Being able to turn yourself around with the cursor keys so softly.
    In TDM it takes more or less 72 key strokes (5 degrees per stroke).
    Also, where to control head bob in dark.cfg?
    Try adjusting the "yaw" cvars:

    in_yawspeed = changes yaw speed depending on how long you hold left or right
    m_yaw = actual scale

  4. #279
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2011
    Location: Ferrol - Spain
    Yaw speed: The smoother, for instance =20, the longer it takes to turn around which makes the game very slow (even 14 seconds to make a 360)
    In Thief 1 a 360 takes about 2,2 seconds and it is like a continuous movement (very, very smooth)
    People say they play with WASD keys but for me this is quite uncomfortable. Also, the default AD keys are for strafing, not for turning around yourself.

  5. #280
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2010
    Ok, one last thing to try:

    m_smooth

    which controls the number of samples taken by the mouse.

    Perhaps increasing the speed alongside increasing samples here would improve things?

  6. #281
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2011
    Location: Ferrol - Spain
    Nope!
    Itīs not turning around which is smooth.
    Itīs when Iīm moving forward and want to make a slight turn. The motion is very abrupt. Itīs more or less a 5-degree turn left or right per keystroke. Itīs only that.
    I told you, in Thef1 you need at least 160 keystrokes to make a 360 and that does not affect my head.
    I have cinetosis and many games make me feel sick because of that.
    For me it all started with Thief Deadly Shadows. That jerkiness.

  7. #282
    Desperately Dodgy Moderator
    Registered: Nov 2001
    Location: Fields of bluegrass
    Have you tried using the mouse to look around instead? I can't imagine trying to play TDM or Thief using the keyboard for turning.

  8. #283
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2010
    Alright. I guess I'm gonna need to fiddle with what we have in keybind options just to see how anyone is using keys only to play this.
    If I were to hazard a guess, this has something to do with using the Keyboard as a joystick.
    If so, then "in_angleSpeedKey" seems like the parameter we're chasing.

    Source code:

    https://github.com/fholger/thedarkmo...UsercmdGen.cpp

    Code:
    /*
    =================
    idUsercmdGenLocal::JoystickMove
    =================
    */
    void idUsercmdGenLocal::JoystickMove( void ) {
    	float	anglespeed;
    
    	if ( toggled_run.on
    #ifdef MULTIPLAYER
    		^ (in_alwaysRun.GetBool() && idAsyncNetwork::IsActive())
    #endif
    		) {
    		anglespeed = idMath::M_MS2SEC * USERCMD_MSEC * in_angleSpeedKey.GetFloat();
    	} else {
    		anglespeed = idMath::M_MS2SEC * USERCMD_MSEC;
    	}
    
    	if ( !ButtonState( UB_STRAFE ) ) {
    		viewangles[YAW] += anglespeed * in_yawSpeed.GetFloat() * joystickAxis[AXIS_SIDE];
    		viewangles[PITCH] += anglespeed * in_pitchSpeed.GetFloat() * joystickAxis[AXIS_FORWARD];
    	} else {
    		cmd.rightmove = idMath::ClampChar( cmd.rightmove + joystickAxis[AXIS_SIDE] );
    		cmd.forwardmove = idMath::ClampChar( cmd.forwardmove + joystickAxis[AXIS_FORWARD] );
    	}
    
    	cmd.upmove = idMath::ClampChar( cmd.upmove + joystickAxis[AXIS_UP] );
    }
    
    /*

  9. #284
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2011
    Location: Ferrol - Spain
    Quote Originally Posted by Yandros View Post
    Have you tried using the mouse to look around instead? I can't imagine trying to play TDM or Thief using the keyboard for turning.
    Of course Iīve tried since the beginning. Itīs perfect in terms of motion but quite uncomfortable for me.
    I prefer to have my index, middle and ring fingers do that in a more straightforward way than any other possible combination.
    Not just a matter of taste in my case.

  10. #285
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2010
    As I can tell on further examination, the yaw control is based on speed and timing.

    For example, if you set in_yawspeed to a comfortable slow value like 16, you can tap L or R like crazy and exceed
    the assigned speed.

    After playing with this a bit more, I now see that the in_anglespeedkey is indeed meant to help with this.

    in_yawspeed 16 (nice and slow, smoothly examine your surroundings)
    in_anglespeedkey 3.5 ( hold the shift key down like a gas pedal when turning and get a nice brisk turn)

    the in_anglespeedkey cvar is a multiplier of in_yawspeed.

    The design reminds me of using the brake keys to make sharp quick turns
    when playing Rogue Squadron.

    You can also invert this relationship.

    in_yawspeed 65 (nice brisk turning)
    in_anglespeedkey 0.3 (slowly examine when the shift key is held)

    In some ways that feels a little more natural even though the shift key is the run key (at least from a stationary location).
    Last edited by nbohr1more; 26th Jun 2018 at 03:12.

  11. #286
    Also, it you need more smooth movement, you can use apps like XPadder and your game controller.

  12. #287
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2011
    Location: Ferrol - Spain
    No, because the smoother you turn the slower you do it. It takes some 17 seconds to make a 360.
    It would be nice to benefit from both things at the same time. You can see it clearly in Thief1 with the arrow keys.
    I guess itīs all the same with modern games. I only play with keyboard and mouse.
    Letīs forget about this then.
    Other things await.

  13. #288
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2010
    Update 5 for the VBO Beta patch is up:

    https://www.moddb.com/mods/the-dark-...ex-buffer-beta

    A fix for mantling bugs caused by changing math precision for SSE \ SIMD.
    Players should encounter fewer incidents where they get stuck on complex map geometry.

    Also a fix for some savegame crashes.

  14. #289
    Member
    Registered: May 2001
    Location: Carlisle, PA
    After updating to 2.06 from 2.05, lights and torches only illuminate a small sphere around the light source, and the lantern doesn't seem to work at all. I thought it might be my installation, so I deleted all darkmod files, downloaded a new tdm_update.exe, and reinstalled from scratch. I still have the same problem. This has never happened in the past with any version of The Dark Mod I've used on this (or any other) machine. I have tried making video adjustments in the menus, but nothing changes this behavior. I haven't messed with the experimental settings.

    I'm using...
    Windows 7 64-bit
    Intel HD Graphics 2000
    Driver Version 9.17.10.3040
    Dated 2/22/2013

    I searched this thread and the one on the Dark Mod forums and found no references to this problem.

    Any ideas?

  15. #290
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2010
    Quote Originally Posted by That Miserable Thief View Post
    After updating to 2.06 from 2.05, lights and torches only illuminate a small sphere around the light source, and the lantern doesn't seem to work at all. I thought it might be my installation, so I deleted all darkmod files, downloaded a new tdm_update.exe, and reinstalled from scratch. I still have the same problem. This has never happened in the past with any version of The Dark Mod I've used on this (or any other) machine. I have tried making video adjustments in the menus, but nothing changes this behavior. I haven't messed with the experimental settings.

    I'm using...
    Windows 7 64-bit
    Intel HD Graphics 2000
    Driver Version 9.17.10.3040
    Dated 2/22/2013

    I searched this thread and the one on the Dark Mod forums and found no references to this problem.

    Any ideas?
    Either disable Soft Shadows and GLSL ( r_useGLSL 0 )
    or use this patch:

    https://www.moddb.com/mods/the-dark-...ex-buffer-beta

  16. #291
    Member
    Registered: May 2001
    Location: Carlisle, PA
    Quote Originally Posted by nbohr1more View Post
    Either disable Soft Shadows and GLSL ( r_useGLSL 0 )
    or use this patch:

    https://www.moddb.com/mods/the-dark-...ex-buffer-beta
    Thank you. That worked. Do you recommend using the patch, anyway?

  17. #292
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2010
    Quote Originally Posted by That Miserable Thief View Post
    Thank you. That worked. Do you recommend using the patch, anyway?
    The patch has a fix for collision issues found after the release of 2.06 so it would be recommended.

    You may also consider upgrading your driver:

    https://downloadcenter.intel.com/dow...?product=81502

    15.28.24.64.4229 (9.17.10.4229) 5/26/2015

    and testing whether Soft Shadows works with the patched version.

  18. #293
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2004
    Location: Germany
    I had the same problem with Win7 x64 and an Intel HD 3000, and "r_useGLSL 0" helped with that as well. Could be a common issue with these Intel graphics.

    Updating the driver never worked for me. All Intel drivers I tried did not recognize this graphics chip. Maybe it's branded in some way.

  19. #294
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2010
    Quote Originally Posted by baeuchlein View Post
    I had the same problem with Win7 x64 and an Intel HD 3000, and "r_useGLSL 0" helped with that as well. Could be a common issue with these Intel graphics.

    Updating the driver never worked for me. All Intel drivers I tried did not recognize this graphics chip. Maybe it's branded in some way.
    Coincidentally, Intel's site says that this is also the latest driver for your graphics:

    https://downloadcenter.intel.com/dow...?product=81502

    What does GPU-Z say about your graphics chip? Maybe it's some custom variant of HD 3000?

  20. #295
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2004
    Location: Germany
    Quote Originally Posted by nbohr1more View Post
    Coincidentally, Intel's site says that this is also the latest driver for your graphics [...]
    Not so coincidentally. The Intel HD Graphics 3000 is very similar to the HD 2000. AFAIK, it just has some more parallel graphics processing units than its predecessor. Same applies to HD 4000 and other HD xxxx variants, if I remember that right.

    Anyway, the driver there is exactly the one I tried some years ago without success. The driver there has the same date as the one I tried years ago wihout success, but the version number differs, and there are other differences as well. You can read what happened when I installed it somewhat below in this post.

    Quote Originally Posted by nbohr1more View Post
    What does GPU-Z say about your graphics chip? Maybe it's some custom variant of HD 3000?
    GPU-Z and Linux' lspci basically say the same about the chip. Nothing suspicious, but both say that the "sub-vendor" of this particular chip is ASUS. That is the manufacturer of the laptop I use. lspci also says that almost all PCI hardware in this laptop has an ASUS subsystem ID, although most parts are Intel designs. I guess this is the culprit here, and that's what I meant by "branded": There's something like an electronic stamp or label on the device marking it as an ASUS device, and some Intel drivers won't install then.

    I doubt that my HD 3000 really differs from others because it is not a single chip soldered on the motherboard, but integrated into the Core i3 CPU. That would mean that Intel had to change something in their CPU just for ASUS. I'm not in the CPU manufacturing business, but that just sounds too expensive to accomplish just for another manufacturer's wishes.

    Concerning drivers: A few months ago, there were no new graphics drivers on the ASUS website for this laptop. I will check that again, but if I still find nothing new there, there's another option. The Intel site now has instructions for installing the Intel drivers even if the device is meant to use only drivers by the (other) manufacturer. This was not there when I last checked that site out. I will try the Intel driver again and use these instructions if it still does not want to install.

    What exactly does "r_useGLSL 0" do anyway? I read in the TDM wiki that it disables this GLSL thing, but there's no explanation about what GLSL actually is or does.

    EDIT: I did now try out that newer Intel driver you mentioned. It did not change the problem with TDM 2.06, I still need "r_useGLSL 0" for proper display of many light sources. But the driver introduces long delays at random stages of the boot process, and messed around with some desktop icons as well. I am going back to a former backup of Windows since the former driver did not give me all that trouble.

    No new driver versions from the laptop manufacturer, btw.. Maybe there's a reason for that.-shrugs-
    Last edited by baeuchlein; 9th Jul 2018 at 12:55. Reason: Corrected facts & added new findings

  21. #296
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2010

    What exactly does "r_useGLSL 0" do anyway? I read in the TDM wiki that it disables this GLSL thing, but there's no explanation about what GLSL actually is or does.

    EDIT: I did now try out that newer Intel driver you mentioned. It did not change the problem with TDM 2.06, I still need "r_useGLSL 0" for proper display of many light sources. But the driver introduces long delays at random stages of the boot process, and messed around with some desktop icons as well. I am going back to a former backup of Windows since the former driver did not give me all that trouble.

    No new driver versions from the laptop manufacturer, btw.. Maybe there's a reason for that.-shrugs-
    Sorry to hear about the driver issue.

    GLSL is short for OpenGL Shader Language.

    It's a high-level language that your OpenGL driver converts to binary when shaders are executed.

    Doom 3 originally shipped with ARB shader language which is like Assembly (ASM) and is very low level.

    Advanced graphics techniques are very difficult with ARB assembly (as with any low level assembly language)
    so adding GLSL to the project opens things up to make it easier to design new graphic effects.

    Also, ARB assembly is pretty much deprecated in modern OpenGL. It is risky to continue using it as drivers may eventually
    drop support for it altogether. Most graphic card vendors stopped adding ARB assembly features around OpenGL 2.1. (DX9c )

    The problem is that the current GLSL shader has some advanced features that most cards with hardware below GL 4.3 don't support.

    We are planning on making TDM GL 3.x compliant after 2.07 so that some older hardware may be able to run soft shadows
    or at the very least all hardware will use the same backend and nobody will need to use the old ARB backend. There may even
    be some fixes in 2.07 to reduce the issues around older hardware (use different extensions, change the way some things are implemented, etc).
    Last edited by nbohr1more; 9th Jul 2018 at 13:56.

  22. #297
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2004
    Location: Germany
    Quote Originally Posted by nbohr1more View Post
    Sorry to hear about the driver issue.
    So much for software quality and driver support these days.

    Quote Originally Posted by nbohr1more View Post
    [...]The problem is that the current GLSL shader has some advanced features that most cards with hardware below GL 4.3 don't support.

    We are planning on making TDM GL 3.x compliant after 2.07 so that some older hardware may be able to run soft shadows or at the very least all hardware will use the same backend and nobody will need to use the old ARB backend. There may even be some fixes in 2.07 to reduce the issues around older hardware (use different extensions, change the way some things are implemented, etc).
    Maybe one should first check whether old hardware will offer reasonable performance with these approaches. It could be a waste of time if you programmed something to let TDM run on older cards, and end up with something that technically works, but runs (or rather sneaks) very slowly then.

    And although I liked the fact that TDM was finally playable on my ISG (Intel Shitty Graphics) hardware this year (in contrast to what I experienced last year), I must admit that Intel graphics are usually too weak for many games. And that won't get better while these integrated graphics grow older.

    I also don't think that TDM's major problems are found around graphical effects. I have severe problems with combat. And in several city missions, TDM apparently needs more RAM than the 4 GByte found in my laptop. At least that's what an analysis with HWINFO suggests - TDM does not complain, it prefers to just crash without giving the player a clue about what's wrong. Those things give me far more trouble than graphic effects.

  23. #298
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2012
    Location: Where you live
    Quote Originally Posted by baeuchlein View Post
    ISG (Intel Shitty Graphics)
    I have not heard that one before, it's a good one ;-)

  24. #299
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2010
    Quote Originally Posted by baeuchlein View Post
    So much for software quality and driver support these days.



    Maybe one should first check whether old hardware will offer reasonable performance with these approaches. It could be a waste of time if you programmed something to let TDM run on older cards, and end up with something that technically works, but runs (or rather sneaks) very slowly then.

    And although I liked the fact that TDM was finally playable on my ISG (Intel Shitty Graphics) hardware this year (in contrast to what I experienced last year), I must admit that Intel graphics are usually too weak for many games. And that won't get better while these integrated graphics grow older.

    I also don't think that TDM's major problems are found around graphical effects. I have severe problems with combat. And in several city missions, TDM apparently needs more RAM than the 4 GByte found in my laptop. At least that's what an analysis with HWINFO suggests - TDM does not complain, it prefers to just crash without giving the player a clue about what's wrong. Those things give me far more trouble than graphic effects.
    In the VBO beta patch, there is already some initial support for compressed Normal Maps so whenever we complete that work VRAM usage
    should be significantly lower. The current implementation compresses to RGTC on-the-fly but has some broken graphical effects on glass and particles
    because the ARB shaders don't know how to read RGTC normal format. You could test it by setting image_useNormalCompression 2 on
    hardware that supports our current GLSL.

    That said, after v1.07 the Standalone project brought in lots of textures at 1024x1024 resolution (as compared to the 128, 256, or 512 versions that we were using
    with Doom 3). You may consider using the image_downSize cvars to force textures back to lower resolutions:


    image_downSize 1
    image_downSizeLimit 256

    image_downSizeBump 1
    image_downSizeBumpLimit 256

    image_downSizeSpecular 1
    image_downSizeSpecularLimit 64

    This is especially useful now that these no longer make menus blurry and the now work with Bloom (Post processing).
    Last edited by nbohr1more; 10th Jul 2018 at 19:11.

  25. #300
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2010
    I can't speak to the issues with the default configuration keys that much.
    We've historically had a bias towards players who play with Keyboard and Mouse so it's probably
    just a situation that has grown out of that orientation.

    As for the resolution and "squishing"?

    We did recently move to a GUI that is more oriented to 16x9 resolution ratios but we probably need to make more
    GUI assets and some heuristic to toggle between them depending on setting.

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