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Thread: Dishonored 2

  1. #651
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Qantas
    Quote Originally Posted by Judith View Post
    I always felt the line-of-sight visibility systems in Dishonored and new DX are pretty vague, although both LoS and light-based visibility systems have problems of their own. LoS relies either on cover system or verticality, and the alertness system in games like DX:Mankind Divided requires you to have enemy awareness markers on, if you don't want your gameplay to be constant trial and error. I think Thief and light-based system was more clearand elegant; enemy barks system was much better than any floating icons from Dishonored or new DX. On the other hand, visibility meter puts great restrictions on aesthetics: you need mostly a nighttime setting, and the lighting should be simple enough to include paths or patches of darkness, so players can move through them undetected.
    Light-based stealth with a light sensor provides a degree of certainty (of not being seen) that is ideal for a ghost play style. But as you pointed out, it constrains level design. You have to create dark areas so dark that the player can hide in plain sight from guards at close range, while still having enough light sources around in the general area so the player can see where they're going. Unless the levels are extremely well designed, it can feel pretty artificial. The system used by DX1 feels more realistic and immersive to me, but it wouldn't be so great in a pure stealth game where you are heavily punished for being detected. Dishonored plays a lot like DX1, except that it really encourages you to go vertical to exploit the guards that don't look up.

    I don't agree that you need to have enemy awareness aids in Mankind Divided. The first thing I did in Mankind Divided was turn off the player aids including the radar. Alerted AIs usually bark, and you can see when they are alerted because their behavior changes. Turning off the radar did make it tougher than Human Revolution to stay stealthy, but I didn't do any more saving and reloading than normal, I just played more carefully. I applaud Eidos Montreal for making it optional, because I couldn't help but stare at the thing when playing Human Revolution, and it was more immersion breaking than busting out of first person to take cover.

  2. #652
    PC Gamering Smartey Man
    I <3 consoles and gamepads

    Registered: Aug 2007
    Location: New Zealand
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Moyer View Post
    I think Bethesda bought them because of their strengths and the background of their team with immersive sims, so hopefully they'll do something "new" but with the same design principles.
    https://www.oneangrygamer.net/2018/0...ologies/67581/
    To date Arkane has received the big publisher equivalent of being "stationed in Siberia" after losing face:- working as a satellite studio and not on home-grown projects.
    With Arkane Lyon’s flagship series put on hold, and with no other game approved to start production, the studio was broken into multiple teams. The first worked on Wolfenstein 2 DLC with Machine Games, while another team aided with the development of Wolfenstein Cyberpilot. A game as per a source that is “not great”. Meanwhile, any team members who weren’t working on Wolfenstein projects were left to prepare a project for a new and original game. A game, that as of July 2018, has yet to be officially green lit.
    Dishonored 2 launched at bad time of year, when heavy-hitters like CoD come out. Franchises with less clout fall throw the cracks. Bad word of mouth from launching unoptimised on PC didn't help either. I don't think the marketing push for either Prey or Dishonored 2 was strong, both games bombed out of the gate. Death of the Outsider sold really poorly too.
    Last edited by EvaUnit02; 6th Sep 2018 at 17:05.

  3. #653
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Qantas
    D2 is a very good game. I know the PC performance issues hurt its reputation at release, but I expected it to bounce back. It's holding a rating of 7/10 on Steam, and I think it deserves better. D1 is a 10/10 after all, and D2 isn't worse.

    Mankind Divided is sitting at 6/10, and it deserves better too. Yeah, the story is weak. But 6/10?

    And then there is Prey, which is a damn good game, critically praised, holding 9/10 on Steam, and it was launched when it didn't face much competition. And still the sales were soft.

    If these games can't keep a AAA studio going, this game genre may be dead.

  4. #654
    Dishnored 2 is unoptimized to this day. I upgraded my CPU/RAM combo recently, and I still see framerate going below 60 fps quite often. DX:MD is solid, but it's pretty much unfinished game. I have no idea what the hell they were thinking, with last mission ending like it did. It's obvious that it's an incomplete product. It still got a lot of recommendations from the press.

  5. #655
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Melbourne, Australia
    Quote Originally Posted by heywood View Post
    If these games can't keep a AAA studio going, this game genre may be dead.
    I think its just that those sorts of games appeal to a niche of gamers. I know that here at TTLG it will look like everyone loves immersive sims since that was Looking Glass Studios bread and butter, but elsewhere their obviously not as popular (otherwise sales would have been better).

  6. #656
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    Wasn't Dishonored really popular? Sales were great, no?

  7. #657
    Southquarter.com/fms
    Registered: Apr 2000
    Location: The Akkala Highlands
    Yes, but as Eva mentioned, the timing of the release was bad with other games coming out, and then the large amount of technical problems with the PC version.

  8. #658
    Level 10,000 achieved
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Finland
    Just finished it!

    Yup, that was good. Some great level design, the Clockwork Mansion, Stilton's Manor and the Duke's Mansion being highlights. Overall I enjoyed it more than the original, tho Prey is still their highpoint for me. Now I'm really bummed out they they don't get to make these ImmSims any more, tho I guess I still have Death Of The Outsider to look forward to. :/

    My favourite moment in the last mission was when I came across this fireplace in the corner of a hallway and for some reason I had the feeling there was a secret passageway in it. I looked around, found a nearby lamp to twist and sure enough a passage opened. "How the hell did I know that?" I wondered. Then I looked around me and realized I'd been there before, in the first game!
    Last edited by henke; 7th Sep 2018 at 12:00.

  9. #659
    PC Gamering Smartey Man
    I <3 consoles and gamepads

    Registered: Aug 2007
    Location: New Zealand
    Quote Originally Posted by SubJeff View Post
    Wasn't Dishonored really popular? Sales were great, no?
    Bethesda do shitty jobs at advertising their games too, outside of their core Bethesda Game Studios developed games. Prey, Dishonored 2, The Evil Within 2, Wolfenstein 2 = all flops that ended up in deep discount sales within 3 months of release.

    I fully expect Rage 2 to be another flop. Doom Eternal will likely sell on word of mouth alone, unless they do something stupid like releasing alongside a mega franchise instalment like Call of Duty or GTA; or dump the game onto market in an unfinished state.
    Last edited by EvaUnit02; 7th Sep 2018 at 15:11.

  10. #660
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Qantas
    Quote Originally Posted by SubJeff View Post
    Wasn't Dishonored really popular? Sales were great, no?
    Dishonored did great. So did Human Revolution. But those were 6 and 7 years ago.

    D2 sales were weak. Same for Mankind Divided. Even Prey was a sales disappointment.

  11. #661
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by EvaUnit02 View Post
    Bethesda do shitty jobs at advertising their games too, outside of their core Bethesda Game Studios developed games. Prey, Dishonored 2, The Evil Within 2, Wolfenstein 2 = all flops that ended up in deep discount sales within 3 months of release.
    Funny, that's a list of just about every game I've bought within a year or two of release in a good while. Add Resident Evil 7 to that list, which I think also flopped. I see your point.

    But WTF at that angry gamer link!?! There are right wing gaming sites now? I can at least appreciate the irony that the only 'gaming news' site that focuses entirely on a political agenda exists solely to complain about a supposed political agenda. Really now, who is doing the politicizing here?
    Last edited by froghawk; 7th Sep 2018 at 17:26.

  12. #662
    PC Gamering Smartey Man
    I <3 consoles and gamepads

    Registered: Aug 2007
    Location: New Zealand
    Quote Originally Posted by froghawk View Post
    But WTF at that angry gamer link!?! There are right wing gaming sites now? I can at least appreciate the irony that the only 'gaming news' site that focuses entirely on a political agenda exists solely to complain about a supposed political agenda. Really now, who is doing the politicizing here?
    The site is run by key player of Gamergate, Cinemablend writer William "Billy D" Usher, who was the whistleblower of the GameJournoPros discussion group to Milo Yiannopoulos. I.e. where all of the game journalists did their unethical collusion. The guy maintains SPJ ethical standards and does great research into the topics that he covers. When he starts harping about his trad con politics in can be very cringey though.

    On that topic a bunch of GameJournoPros leaks were finally made public within the last couple weeks if anyone want to take a gander.
    https://twitter.com/nickmon1112/stat...20724767748097

    Remember Armikrog? There were hit-pieces with the aim to tank the Kickstarter, because they found out that Earthworm Jim creator Doug TenNapel didn't support gay marriage. You can see the seeds of their discontent here.
    https://twitter.com/nickmon1112/stat...51443263053824
    Last edited by EvaUnit02; 9th Sep 2018 at 17:49.

  13. #663
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    good god all the serious issues in this world and people are getting worked up over gaming journalism

  14. #664
    I don't agree that you need to have enemy awareness aids in Mankind Divided. The first thing I did in Mankind Divided was turn off the player aids including the radar. Alerted AIs usually bark, and you can see when they are alerted because their behavior changes.
    I did turn off everything I could, radar included, but I meant those markers around your crosshair with filling bars, indicating enemy getting suspicious. I found gameplay to be rather difficult without them, as the distance between you and enemy is often pretty big and you might not hear the bark. I remember some article poking fun at Thief as a game obsessed with feet sound, but Thief's rather confined spaces, loud footstep sounds, and clear indication of enemy alert states with proper barks felt better to me, I was able to move around those spaces and AIs just using my senses. Games with larger spaces and line of sight stealth, and with many more AIs on map, thanks to better tech, they seem designed with enemy awareness markers, at least to me. And that feels like a downside to me, as you are more like managing UI icons rather than being in the game world. IMO that's a similar problem to objective markers, you can play without them, but you can see that games are often designed with them in mind, first and foremost.

  15. #665
    Level 10,000 achieved
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Finland
    Finished Death of the Outsider yesterday. Good stuff, enjoyed the bank mission the most. Storytelling has never been this series strong suit, but it felt even more muddled here than in the other entries. I did enjoy the new powers and weapons though. One moment that stuck in my mind was when I came up behind 3 guards pounding on a door. I threw a hook-mine up on the wall next to the first guard and then fired off an electric bolt at the second one. In the confusion that followed as one of them got zapped and the other was hoisted up on the wall I ran in a karate chopped the third one in the throat before choking him out. Hell, I felt like a regular StealthGamerBR after that!

    *looks up an actual StealthGamerBR video of the game*



    oh, uh, nevermind. guess I still got some ways to go.

  16. #666
    Member
    Registered: May 2005
    Location: Leicester, UK
    They've removed Denuvo so I can finally play this.

    Currently in the streets of the first mission so not far, but I'm enjoying it a lot. Nice to be back in the Dishonored world.

    Performance isn't terrible so far (3570k and oc'd 970) but I think the performance issues are later on in the game, so we'll see. Removal of Denuvo seems to have had a slight improvement in frame rate as well, so that's good.

  17. #667
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2001
    Location: Somewhere
    I have just started this, and no performance issues so far. Also, really enjoyed the first few hours.

  18. #668
    I played it on a 3570/970 combo after the first real patch and never had an issue with performance anywhere.

  19. #669
    Member
    Registered: May 2005
    Location: Leicester, UK
    Great, that's good to know about performance.

    I need some help. I'm playing on Very Hard with No Powers. I can't work out how to get into this room near the canal - looks like it would be easy with blink but I can't see a non blink route.

    http://s274.photobucket.com/user/mrs...ary/Dishonored

    The three photos are the same building seen from different sides, and another is the closest I've managed to get.

  20. #670
    You probably can't. You can't access everything without blink, including at least one rune or bonecharm IIRC.

  21. #671
    Member
    Registered: May 2005
    Location: Leicester, UK
    That's a shame. It seems they've designed the game to be traversable without blink this time (good), but not to get to everything (not so good).

  22. #672
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2002
    Location: Edmonton
    I'm up to Dust District now, and I have thoughts on the game I would like to share with everyone.

    First of all, this game is beautiful. As far as wandering around game worlds goes, DH2 is among the best. I love the way the light lands on dust particles and the little gaps in parquet floors. There's artistic intent not only in textures and fine details but seemingly in every vista you encounter, every corridor, every open window. And yet the game never forces you to look at any of it. So well done there, Arkane.

    Gameplaywise it's like Dishonored, which is both good and bad. Coming from a recent Thief run, I feel a lot less aware of my surroundings in DH2, which has lead to much trial and error. Even if I sit and survey a scene for a few minutes, once I decide to act, I almost inevitably get spotted by some guard that was out of sight (they mostly have the same voice anyway, and there's no sound propagation to speak of, so I never know where they are), and I either have to reload or resort to violence, which is annoying because I was trying for nonlethal and ghostly. I've given up on the latter, though. There's just not enough feedback, even when I'm very patient, to make it through undetected on my first playthrough. It also takes absolutely forever to play that way, which makes the prospect of replaying the game to try other playstyles less appealing. The levels are generally very well designed although some of the more gimmicky elements like Jindosh's mansion tend to make stealth frustrating rather than fun.

    But it's the writing for me that really hurts Dishonored 2. I stopped playing as Emily because I couldn't stand her overwrought and unnecessary comments, and Corvo's aren't a whole lot better. The tone of this game is just so off-putting: melodramatic cliche after cliche, conversations that don't flow logically (at one point Megan says, "Are you ready to leave?" and Corvo replies: "Yes. The city sure has changed since I've been gone.") guards announcing that they really have to pee every 20 seconds, and the Heart -- ugh, the Heart -- which I've stopped using altogether because the things it says are so embarrassingly bad. "Somewhere a servant boy is being beaten blind... HE WAS LATE WITH THE TEA." "She put her cat in the oven just to teach her son a lesson!" Okay, so I made that second one up, but not really. Nearly everyone in this game is comically evil and unlikable. And the Outsider, just like in the first game, is only there to remind you of how clever Arkane is by laying out the two choices you can make in any given scenario while wagging his giant finger at you. My wife, who is not a gamer, sometimes watches me play, and DH2 is making me too self-conscious to enjoy it. The writing in books and notes is alright, but because the game hasn't given me much incentive to care about its world and characters, I'm tending to skim or ignore a lot of the notes I find, which I don't normally do.

    So overall the good outweighs the bad, but I can't see this as a game that I'll come back to over the years because it's not particularly immersive for me. It has its moments for sure, but just as surely it undermines them.

  23. #673
    Quote Originally Posted by Aja
    But it's the writing for me that really hurts Dishonored 2. I stopped playing as Emily because I couldn't stand her overwrought and unnecessary comments, and Corvo's aren't a whole lot better. The tone of this game is just so off-putting: melodramatic cliche after cliche, conversations that don't flow logically (at one point Megan says, "Are you ready to leave?" and Corvo replies: "Yes. The city sure has changed since I've been gone.") guards announcing that they really have to pee every 20 seconds, and the Heart -- ugh, the Heart -- which I've stopped using altogether because the things it says are so embarrassingly bad. "Somewhere a servant boy is being beaten blind... HE WAS LATE WITH THE TEA." "She put her cat in the oven just to teach her son a lesson!" Okay, so I made that second one up, but not really. Nearly everyone in this game is comically evil and unlikable. And the Outsider, just like in the first game, is only there to remind you of how clever Arkane is by laying out the two choices you can make in any given scenario while wagging his giant finger at you. My wife, who is not a gamer, sometimes watches me play, and DH2 is making me too self-conscious to enjoy it. The writing in books and notes is alright, but because the game hasn't given me much incentive to care about its world and characters, I'm tending to skim or ignore a lot of the notes I find, which I don't normally do.
    Yeah, most of it is horrible. Apparently Harvey Smith hired the main writer after looking at their twitter. Private Pyle's dialogues about orgies and whatnot were especially cringey IMO. I think you can see Terri Brosius and the guy who wrote the first game in the credits, too. Wonder which parts they wrote.

    It's really too bad. For me, Dis 2 would have been a perfect game if it weren't for the writing.

  24. #674
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    I thought Harvey Smith was the main writer? And they apparently have both Austin Grossman and Terri Brosius? What on earth are they doing?

    They really should have kept whoever it was who did Knife of Dunwall. For me, it's still the high point of the series. Daud is a much better and a much more interesting main character at the very least.

  25. #675
    Quote Originally Posted by Starker
    I thought Harvey Smith was the main writer? And they apparently have both Austin Grossman and Terri Brosius? What on earth are they doing?

    They really should have kept whoever it was who did Knife of Dunwall. For me, it's still the high point of the series. Daud is a much better and a much more interesting main character at the very least.
    Yup, I was wrong! The twitter writer was hired for the Megan DLC.

    And I agree that the Daud DLC was the high point. Some of the main characters of Dishonored 2 originate from it and were infinitely more interesting than their portrayal in the sequel. It's really too bad. Still, at least the readables were a pleasure to read IMO.

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