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Thread: the death of free save

  1. #1
    Member
    Registered: May 2012
    Location: Spray, OR

    the death of free save

    First night of Thief 4 for me. Still in the prologue, but very (very) early impressions were fairly positive. Pretty good atmosphere, even if they are just linear setpieces. The guard convos are not memorable whatsoever but do an adequate job of conveying tone and ideas. The Erin/Garrett banter is admittedly cringeworthy. Garrett's voice is meh. Plot is unclear. But I really liked all the custom difficulty options and overall was having fun until the puzzle where you have to throw the bottle to distract the guard, and the puzzle after that with the two guards in the well lit area.

    Why why WHY does this game not have free save? Doesn't a single member on the Eidos team know how frustrating it is to get 90% of the way to the next area, get caught, and subsequently fail the no-detection objective? It took me a good 4-5 tries to get past that bottle distraction area, and I had had no complaints about pacing until that point. A good 20-25 minutes for the two areas before I ragequit (maybe I just suck at playing Thief, who knows),

    Thief 4 does not have a quicksave/quickload function (EDIT: it does. I'm a dummy). It does, however, have a manual save function. Fair enough. Except that for the entire prologue MANUAL SAVE IS NOT AVAILABLE. How on earth did Eidos not consider that to be a problem?! It is really bad optics to advertise a function right there on the pause menu, then say "oops sorry we lied. You only get to save sometimes." If I could save while incrementally solving an area, it would alleviate my stress levels greatly. After all, that's what happened in the original games (side bar: I could breeze through something like that in 2 seconds in the dark engine, as I'm sure most of us could). After all, what is this, Halo? Surviving a 15-minute firefight killing 324,775 Flood and then dying 3 steps from autosave from the 1 flood that you missed? And having to do it all again? What is that point of that? If it pisses us off in a bad way as a gamer, why design it? (there is a difference between a high level of difficulty, and a chore/bore/unfun mess).

    I am confounded to a level that I can't put into words. Designers that think this is an ADVANCEMENT of gaming design seriously need to evaluate their (professional) self-worth. Not just Thief 4, but many many games over the last decade have been moving in this direction, of taking away universal free save. It's sad to think that games in the 1990s had more guarantees of free save than games in the 2010s. It's 2014. We have the technology. And if it's compensating for consoles (which should be able to handle it anyway), it would go against the official EM position of "Thief 4 PC is not a port." For me, games that don't offer freesave are automatically and instantly irrelevant, and would have to be a Half-Life 2 or Deus Ex level quality the rest of the time to even scrape a 5/10.
    Last edited by arandomgamer02; 8th Mar 2014 at 14:24.

  2. #2
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2007
    Location: In my Pagan Hut
    There actually is a quick save/quick load. I'm not entirely sure why it wasn't there in the prologue, but it is there after and both loads and saves quickly.

    Edit: There is one limitation in that you cannot save while a guard is alerted.
    Last edited by TheGrimSmile; 8th Mar 2014 at 02:41.

  3. #3
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    There is free saving and quick save/load.

    I think the Eidos team know exactly how frustrating it is...

    ... to have idiots whine about things they're either to impatient or stupid to look into.
    Telepathy is not mind reading. It is the direct linking... ...of nervous systems... ...separated by space.

  4. #4
    Southquarter.com/fms
    Registered: Apr 2000
    Location: The Akkala Highlands
    Dude, if you're having that much trouble with the Prologue, you probably aren't going to do too well in this game with or without saves. But yes, the game has free & quick saving. Check your key bindings, by default quicksaving/loading on the PC is F5 and F9.

    And saying the guard convos are not memorable and that the plot is unclear when you're still playing the Prolgoue is really jumping the gun. Why not play for at least an hour or two and make a fair judgement instead of "ragequitting?"

  5. #5
    Moderator
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Everywhere
    Right? The game started with Garrett in some room with a guy? Where is the room? Who is the guy? Why is he asleep? How did they get there? RIDICULOUS! I don't think this game has any plot at all.

    It's like that time I tried to read Moby Dick. "Call me Ishmael." WHAT? I recognized immediately that this story was going nowhere, so I chucked that bitch into the fireplace and got on with life. I don't have an hour between ordering mocha lattes and blogging about how bad the new Star Trek comic sucks to sit around waiting for an author to actually develop a plot or characters. I mean, life is short, right?

  6. #6
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2005
    Location: Watching the puppets thrash.
    I don't think Moby Dick is a good book to base that particular argument.

  7. #7
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    Any book is.
    Telepathy is not mind reading. It is the direct linking... ...of nervous systems... ...separated by space.

  8. #8
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2002
    Location: thief.wikia.com
    Quick save and auto save use the same save slot, so if you quick save and then go into a wall locker or go into another area the auto save will overwrite your quick save.

    The Prologue is a tutorial, and if you're having problems near the end, hop in a wall locker, it will auto save.

  9. #9
    Member
    Registered: May 2012
    Location: Spray, OR
    First of all, yes, I now see that there is a quick save/load option. I did in fact look for it in the bindings menu last night and honest to god didn't see it. An honest mistake. And if missing it makes me stupid, and a bad person, then fair enough. I fully and richly deserve any criticism I get for that. However, it is disorienting not to have it at the start of the game. Can we all agree on that?

    As far as the plot, I never said "it was a bad plot" or "the characters are never going to be developed." I said that early on, the plot is unclear. And it is. At least, it could be more seamless. Basso's association to Garrett and Erin was not really explained in-game as clear as it could have been ('we're going to steal from the Baron because Basso'); it was best gleaned from reading the journal ('Basso sets up the jobs for us, but I have a bad feeling about this one') There is certainly a bit of disconnect there; the journal could have been used to enhance the in-game story, and not as an integral part of it. Whether or not you feel more intelligence would be nice in order to gleam this from the in-game stuff, fair enough. But I think it's pretty reasonable to say a few more voiceover lines would have cleared up any confusion that the player has.

    I balk at characterizing any even-remotely-thoughtful posting as "whining," but seeing as the definition of whining is "a long complaining cry," I suppose that's what it is. However, other people at TTLG have done the same thing only to spawn pages and pages of friendly discourse. Now admittedly, those posts don't have incorrect information most of the time, but the point is still a valid one. I suppose it was my turn.

    There was unbelievable pessimism for YEARS regarding the release of this title. It was unrelenting and unforgiving. It seemed a minority of people on this forum gave the game even a remote chance of success or approval. It was doomed from announcement day. I always said that we have to give Eidos benefit of the doubt until the game is released (look at my old posts). Even as recent as two weeks ago, when all the press reviews came out, there was widespread approval HERE of what the press was saying, a real sense of "serves them right" and a general negative sentient for the Eidos team. Then, ever since the game has come out, the badmouthing from the community has largely dried up, either way. So either everybody was not playing the game and therefore apathetic, or everybody reneged on their "not buy" pledge, and was playing the game (generalizing...I'm sure some people will never touch the thing, or were always buying it, etc) Yes, I'm aware that this sentiment was also expressed over in the post mortem thread, and the progress thread, and other places. It is the ultimate irony to have TTLGers *defending* the game now.

    I respect all of you. Make fun of that sentiment if you want, but it's true. As for the whole rest of the game, I will withhold public judgment until the credits roll.

  10. #10
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2005
    Location: Wisconsin
    Quote Originally Posted by fett View Post
    Right? The game started with Garrett in some room with a guy? Where is the room? Who is the guy? Why is he asleep? How did they get there? RIDICULOUS! I don't think this game has any plot at all.

    It's like that time I tried to read Moby Dick. "Call me Ishmael." WHAT? I recognized immediately that this story was going nowhere, so I chucked that bitch into the fireplace and got on with life. I don't have an hour between ordering mocha lattes and blogging about how bad the new Star Trek comic sucks to sit around waiting for an author to actually develop a plot or characters. I mean, life is short, right?
    Post of the year.

  11. #11
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2013
    Quote Originally Posted by Sxerks View Post
    Quick save and auto save use the same save slot, so if you quick save and then go into a wall locker or go into another area the auto save will overwrite your quick save.
    Are you sure about that? In my load folder for one mission there was a checkpoint save, a manual save, and a chapter start save, all different.

    I only discovered this because pressing F9 loaded my last quicksave which was well before the last checkpoint save, and I briefly worried whether I was going to have to replay from all the way back there.

    But I opened up the load option and there the later CP save was.

  12. #12
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2009
    Location: thiefgold.com
    Reminds me of Skyrim. For the first sequence of the game (10 minutes or so) you can't even press Esc or access the menu
    Last edited by Azaran; 8th Mar 2014 at 19:57.

  13. #13
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2012
    Location: Germany
    Quote Originally Posted by Cigam View Post
    Are you sure about that? In my load folder for one mission there was a checkpoint save, a manual save, and a chapter start save, all different.
    I can confirm what he says... this is the reason I had to play the lockdown mission twice... just because I wanted to have a short look at the beginning of this chapter... the quick save in this game is quite shitty. It's a strange system. Without hard saves you can get massive problems.

  14. #14
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2013
    Maybe reloading a chapter save deletes QS and CP saves from within that chapter, but that does not necessarily mean that within a mission the QS and CP saves cannot use different and separately accessible slots.

    Of course, I could have just encountered a bug. Will test again tomorrow.

  15. #15
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2012
    Location: Germany
    Quote Originally Posted by Cigam View Post
    Maybe reloading a chapter save deletes QS and CP saves from within that chapter, but that does not necessarily mean that within a mission the QS and CP saves cannot use different and separately accessible slots.
    This would actually make sense. Maybe.

  16. #16
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    Quote Originally Posted by arandomgamer02 View Post
    First of all, yes, I now see that there is a quick save/load option. I did in fact look for it in the bindings menu last night and honest to god didn't see it. An honest mistake. And if missing it makes me stupid, and a bad person, then fair enough.
    No, what makes you stupid is getting so enraged by this "fact" that you came in here with a long rant about something that could have been cleared up with a simple google search. Over-reaction is, indeed, one of the traits of the idiot - the inability to think about things before blowing your top.

    I balk at characterizing any even-remotely-thoughtful posting as "whining," but seeing as the definition of whining is "a long complaining cry," I suppose that's what it is. However, other people at TTLG have done the same thing only to spawn pages and pages of friendly discourse. Now admittedly, those posts don't have incorrect information most of the time, but the point is still a valid one.
    You can't talk your way out of this. One of the definitions of whine is "a feeble, peevish complaint", which yours most certainly was.

    Now you're going to say "oh that SubjEff is so MEAN". No, no I'm not. I'm just a robot when it comes to these things and tell it how it is. You came and ranted about something you were wrong about. Sure, it was a mistake. It was still a stupid mistake. When you complain about something that you are factually correct on, no matter what your opinion is or whether I agree, I'll have no problem with it. Just get your facts right and we'll be cool.

  17. #17
    Moderator
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: Wales
    Quote Originally Posted by Subjective Effect View Post
    Now you're going to say "oh that SubjEff is so MEAN".
    I think that SubjEff is grumpier than NuEff and I don't think you're giving nearly enough points for good grammar and spelling, and I didn't have to edit for 'language'.

  18. #18
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2003
    Location: On my bicycle \o/
    And then random person admitted to a mistake. That's a decidedly non-idiot thing to do. So despite the initial stumble of rushing to an unfounded conclusion, he's up in my estimation.

  19. #19
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2013
    Had a look again today, and in my current mission there are still two separate saves maintained for quicksave and checkpoint save, and both could be loaded separately without deleting the other.

    So in my Thief at least, QS does not use the same slot as the CP autosave.

    The chapter start autosave is a different slot again.

  20. #20
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2002
    Location: thief.wikia.com
    @Cigam
    I see what you mean but there is still something odd happening.

    There is a list of save slots and the Auto-save is the top one.
    *In most save slots, I have a Check Point and Manual
    *The Auto-save slot, only has one, and it appears to be whatever the last save was: CP, Manual(QS)

    But it appears for me that the Quick Load and "Load last Save" both go to the Auto-save.
    Example: about to finish a mission, do a QS, finish the mission and enter Stonemarket(an auto save happens), try a QL and it doesn't take me back to the mission it just reloads the Stonemarket Auto-save.
    Or at least that appears to be the way it functions between Loading Areas.

  21. #21
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2013
    Maybe once you leave a mission the QS and CP saves made within it are deleted and so Quickload then just loads the latest available save, which would be the other autosave?

    When I complete the current mission I am on, and return to the Clocktower or The City, I shall see what saves are listed in the load screen.

  22. #22
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2006
    Location: In front of PC
    I didn't realise that there was a quick save either. I had read in a review that it wasn't possible and assumed that was the case.
    I'm on chapter 4 now and haven't used quick save, only closet saves. This didn't bother me. It made me a more cautious player
    and ultimately made my gaming experience more satisfying. That said, now that I know I can quick save I'll probably start using it.

  23. #23
    New Member
    Registered: May 2014
    Quote Originally Posted by fett View Post
    Right? The game started with Garrett in some room with a guy? Where is the room? Who is the guy? Why is he asleep? How did they get there? RIDICULOUS! I don't think this game has any plot at all.

    It's like that time I tried to read Moby Dick. "Call me Ishmael." WHAT? I recognized immediately that this story was going nowhere, so I chucked that bitch into the fireplace and got on with life. I don't have an hour between ordering mocha lattes and blogging about how bad the new Star Trek comic sucks to sit around waiting for an author to actually develop a plot or characters. I mean, life is short, right?

    I don‘t even remember when I registered to this forum, and I haven‘t played any of the Thief games for far too long, but this reply is one of the funniest things I ever read on the internet, and every few years I remember it and have a chuckle. Well done sir!

    Cheers!
    useless

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