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Thread: Thief 3 Gold - Public beta test (TDS Spoilers ahead, obviously!)

  1. #1
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2006
    Location: Deutschland

    Thief 3 Gold - Public beta test (TDS Spoilers ahead, obviously!)

    Version 1.0 released! Please check here for the link but feel free to report bugs here anyway!

    This thread should have been started at least six years earlier but for several reasons there was never enough man power among the T3Edders. Well, actually there isn't a lot now, either. Anyway, here's the deal:

    As some may have noticed, for a few years now the idea of a T3 overhaul was debated and experiments were done. While snobel works/worked on bringing all existent tweaks and patches into the Sneaky Upgrade (such as JohnP textures, the Minimalist Project, T3 Tweaker), I combined all proper missions into one map, thus eliminating the loading zones. You can download these missions as an FM compatible with FMSel as it is shipped with the most up-to-date Sneaky Upgrade. Just download, install, play.

    This version has the following "features":
    - No loading zones or blue fog in all nine proper missions (excl. the Inn tutorial)
    - Re-designed transition zones (as faithful to the game as possible)
    - Various fixes of broken/incomplete patrols, missing shadow-casting, un-ghostable AI positions
    - Fixed Keeper enforcers, especially on HARD/EXPERT (NEW: these tweaks will be optional via the SU interface)
    - Reduced ambient fog
    - Removed transition zone symbol from hand-drawn maps
    - From the Sneaky Upgrade side the game was tweaked to allow slightly larger maps (content-wise) which was necessary for the Cradle and Museum maps
    NEW: - option (via the SU interface) to allow finishing the Widow Moira mission on EXPERT without stealing her inheritance

    Plans for the future:
    - Turning the tutorial mission into a proper mission on HARD/EXPERT (this is a lot of work)
    - Tweaking/balancing remaining bugs etc.
    - Including proper briefing videos like in this test
    - Including proper hand-drawn maps (artists, volunteer!)
    - Proper tweaking UI for the Sneaky Upgrade (AI awareness, equipment prices, HUD and font sizes etc.)
    - Tweaking the movement of Garrett, maybe altered mesh
    - Whatever comes up

    What probably won't happen:
    - Getting rid of City section loading zones (might work for small sections like Garrett's house or Fort Ironwood, but is a hassle in general because of the maps' complexity)
    - Rope arrows and swimmable water
    - Proper Pagan dialects

    Now for the beta stuff. Download this FM archive (mirror, thanks to clearing & Brethren!) and install/play it via FMSel (instructions, if necessary, should be included with the Sneaky Upgrade).

    Play the game on different difficulty levels with different playstyles. Try to get maximum loot, in short, try everything out that could be broken. One of the most current problems are broken volume boxes, so everything that is triggered by Garrett or an NPC walking into a specific area (an invisible box for the editor). If you notice that e.g. conversations or Garrett voice-overs don't start as they should – that's for the bug list. Please volunteer only if you know the original game by heart and/or are ready to dedicate a significant amount of time to the test. Bugs should be reported here, if possible with images or clear location/description so I can track things down quickly. If design/philosophy discussions can be held short and concise, they are allowed here, too, otherwise feel free to use the other thread.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Savegames:

    Shortly after the Pagan and Hammerite Intros
    Shortly after the Seaside Mansion and Kurshok Citadel
    Shortly after meeting Inspector Drept (i.e. before the Cradle)

    Savegames can be found in (Harddrive) \Program Data\Thief 3 Sneaky Upgrade\Installed FMs\T3_Gold_public_beta\SaveGame. Note that you have to delete the SaveIndex.ion file after pasting the new savegame. The names are in German but I hope you can handle that.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Bug List:

    Rutherford Castle

    Hammer Intro

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Slaughter View Post
    In St. Edgar's church, one of the objectives is:
    -Attach the stamped gear and the holy symbol to the mechanism protecting the Chalice.
    Well, I do that and the objective does not get checked, then I get the chalice (that objective line gets checked) and try end the mission, but can't because of that objective unchecked.
    Oh, and I notice some equipment with huge gears in the factory section of the church were misaligned, and strangelly realigned themselves after a reload.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yara View Post
    One of the NPCs is stuck in the door opening animation.




    Here is the savegame
    Pagan Intro

    Seaside Mansion
    Quote Originally Posted by Yara View Post
    In the dining room I could hear this Edwina's phrase very clearly as if she was right beside me. It stopped at some moment and didn't start again even when I reload my savegame.


    Although I brought Edwina her wine (and she thanked me) and I didn't take her money from the chest, there were no wine bottle and letter in Garret's home after the mission. There was letter about vengeance in the street but thugs didn't appear.
    Kurshok Citadel

    Clocktower
    Garret didn't say anything about "way down"

    Keeper Compound
    invisible diamond tiara in the Caduca's chest. You can't see it but can get it if keep frobbing.

    Cradle
    Quote Originally Posted by Yara View Post
    NPCs who don't follow the routes:
    - puppet in the Observatory
    - ghost guard in the Lobotomy theatre
    - ghost guard in the exercise yard where the Urn of Ashes must be placed


    Serious FPS drop occurs in the Storm cellar in the cage area.

    In the "past" there was no NPC in the chair in the room with fireplace.

    I left all doors open in "present time" and opened door blocked one ghost guard in the "past". He didn't move until I closed that door.
    [image removed]
    Wieldstrom Museum
    Quote Originally Posted by Yara View Post
    Guards who don't follow the routes:
    [images removed]

    This is old glitch: you can take one item through the glass.
    City Sections
    Quote Originally Posted by Yara View Post
    Keeper enforcers
    I've just made a rage quit. Enforcers seems so unbalanced now. [...]
    Quote Originally Posted by Yara View Post
    Auldale
    Two guards don't start the conversation.
    [image removed][/url]
    But I used your savegame to run Gradle mission and further, maybe that's the cause.
    Last edited by Beleg Cúthalion; 2nd Aug 2014 at 11:12. Reason: added buglist

  2. #2
    Southquarter.com/fms
    Registered: Apr 2000
    Location: The Akkala Highlands
    Looking forward to trying this, congrats on getting it out. Here's a mirror:

    Thief 3 Gold beta

  3. #3
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2006
    Location: Deutschland
    Thanks for the mirror. There have been questions about savegames and although I wanted to be lazy, I'm trying to provide some so people can focus on certain portions of the game. The one I have already is a savegame shortly before the Cradle. I hope snobel can drop by and tell everyone where the savegames are stored when an FM is installed... because I only found them in the back-up files.

  4. #4
    bikerdude
    Guest
    Bloody awesome, downloading now..

  5. #5
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2005
    Location: Heart of Darkness
    Quote Originally Posted by Beleg Cúthalion View Post
    - Various fixes of broken/incomplete patrols, missing shadow-casting, un-ghostable AI positions
    I've never liked it when an AI is standing between me and a piece of loot in a way that makes it impossible to get past without knocking him out, but I think that's just the point. If you want to ghost a mission, you need to make some sacrifices. You won't be able to get all the loot. Just the amount of loot that your mission requirements require you to get.

    That said, TDS on expert has unreasonably high loot requirements that force expert players to try to get loot that is too well guarded to be worth the risk. And in fact some optional bonus objectives are completely off limits. Like for example, Moira's inheritance. You can't not steal it, because it constitutes 11% of the total loot, so it's impossible to complete the loot objective without stealing it.

    The only things that should be fixed to better support ghosting are sections where unavoidable guards are standing between you and your objective. Not between you and some extra piece of loot. If it's possible to ghost through a mission with all the objectives completed and the required amount of loot stolen, then that mission doesn't need fixing.

  6. #6
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2006
    Location: Deutschland
    I will take this over to the WIP thread just in case, so please find my reply there.

  7. #7
    Sneaky Upgrader
    Registered: May 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by Beleg Cúthalion View Post
    I hope snobel can drop by and tell everyone where the savegames are stored when an FM is installed... because I only found them in the back-up files.
    They're in a subfolder of the FM folder - which you can find easily by going through the Sneaky Upgrade start menu group: Under Local Folders there's a link to the main FM installation folder. T3 Gold will be there, and inside it the SaveGames folder.

  8. #8
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2001
    Location: Tatry Mountains, Poland
    Quote Originally Posted by Beleg Cúthalion View Post
    - Including proper briefing videos like in this test
    WOW!

    This project is really admirable.

  9. #9
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2008
    Location: Slovakia - Zemplín region
    I'll follow this. Looks like it has genuine potential.

  10. #10
    "Fixed Keeper Enforcers" that is intriguing. Must get this for a replay sometime.

  11. #11
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2005
    Location: Brazil
    In St. Edgar's church, one of the objectives is:

    -Attach the stamped gear and the holy symbol to the mechanism protecting the Chalice.

    Well, I do that and the objective does not get checked, then I get the chalice (that objective line gets checked) and try end the mission, but can't because of that objective unchecked.

    Oh, and I notice some equipment with huge gears in the factory section of the church were misaligned, and strangelly realigned themselves after a reload.

    Edit:

    O yes, kudos for this project and Beleg, I (almost) forget the "thank you". this project is a dream come true... finally a real thief 3.
    Last edited by Darth Slaughter; 1st Apr 2014 at 21:14.

  12. #12
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2006
    Location: Deutschland
    I cannot remember having this objective bug on my playthrough. I will try to see if I can reproduce it, maybe others can do, too. Together with the mis- and re-aligned gears I can only think of some general mess-up (which would be interesting to track down nonetheless!). Have you tried a second time?

  13. #13
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2005
    Location: Brazil
    Quote Originally Posted by Beleg Cúthalion View Post
    I cannot remember having this objective bug on my playthrough. I will try to see if I can reproduce it, maybe others can do, too. Together with the mis- and re-aligned gears I can only think of some general mess-up (which would be interesting to track down nonetheless!). Have you tried a second time?
    Not yet, I'll replay this weekend.

  14. #14
    New Member
    Registered: Jul 2004
    Is there any known bug list? Just to be sure that I would not report reported bugs.

    St. Edgar's Church.
    One of the NPCs is stuck in the door opening animation.




    Here is the savegame

  15. #15
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2006
    Location: Deutschland
    I'll keep a buglist in the first post as long as it remains readable. Thanks for the report, although I assume that this is a standard T3 bug.

    Edit: It seems like in rare cases the guard's task to follow the priest prevents him from execution regular door opening actions. I'll see if something can be done about it.
    Last edited by Beleg Cúthalion; 3rd Apr 2014 at 11:42.

  16. #16
    New Member
    Registered: Jul 2004
    Pagan Intro
    Kurshok Citadel


    Seems everything run smoothly. There are just couple minor glitches.

    1. Strange plant behaviour.

    Initial form/changed form. It changes after someone pushes it and keeps changed form.




    2. Hood and head. This is dead pagan near Paw's sanctuary.



    3. Hollow column base



    Note: I don't try to get all possible loot during this run. I usually get 95%-97% total loot and I'll check loot with the loot lists later if necessary.

  17. #17
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2006
    Location: Deutschland
    The Kurshok Citadel columns have been fixed. There might be several more of these in the Keeper maps because I've only fixed a few instances there... and everything looks the same. The problem with the Pagan hood (or rigid attachments of body parts in general) will take some time. Maybe it helps to make the hoods bigger to avoid clipping errors when the head mesh from underneath kicks through but I fear this would have to be solved with more means than I have.

    I think the plants are supposed to be like that, weird Pagan stuff and all that. Any opinions?

  18. #18
    New Member
    Registered: Jul 2004
    I think the plants are supposed to be like that, weird Pagan stuff and all that. Any opinions?
    I checked this in the unmodded game and plants do the same way there, they float above the water surface and drop down if pushed so this is original bug (if this is a bug).

    Seaside Mansion

    Floating lamp


    In the dining room I could hear this Edwina's phrase very clearly as if she was right beside me. It stopped at some moment and didn't start again even when I reload my savegame.


    Although I brought Edwina her wine (and she thanked me) and I didn't take her money from the chest, there were no wine bottle and letter in Garret's home after the mission. There was letter about vengeance in the street but thugs didn't appear.

  19. #19
    bikerdude
    Guest
    Just started play-testing this, how deed should the bug testing be? And by that I mean everything or medium and above or show stoppers only?

    And some feedback, is it me or are the level loading far faster than they ever did before, the loading progress bar just shoots across now.

  20. #20
    Sneaky Upgrader
    Registered: May 2007
    I guess there's no harm in posting whatever you find. Even if it doesn't make the first round of fixes it would be good to have it on record.

    As for the speed-up: A chap called Lolwutman pointed out that there was a link between vsync and loading time, and it turned out that 1) a function which updates the progress bar was called way more often than necessary and 2) that function calls a certain D3D function, which I guess will wait for the next frame and then flip the buffers when vsync is on. So there was a fix for this in one of the SU 1.1.3.x updates.

  21. #21
    New Member
    Registered: Jul 2004
    Clocktower
    Garret didn't say anything about "way down"

    Keeper enforcers
    I've just made a rage quit. Enforcers seems so unbalanced now. I can't see them even when they are shooting at me, I can't walk around them because their sense distance rather high for such narrow streets and I don't want to kill them so I am desperate. Maybe hardcore gamers will be pleased but I am not the hardcore gamer. Yes, they still walk loudly but this doesn't help much. When I've tried to use noisemaker arrow, many people gathered there including one guard and I presumed that enforcer went there too (I couldn't see him) but he began shooting me anyway. When I managed to put down one enforcer (using a gas bomb) I couldn't see his body until it flashes a bit, seems they learn how to stay invisible even when unconscious. I think I'm ready to embrace the Dark Side and kill everything there because now it's easier to kill than to spare lives.

  22. #22
    Sneaky Upgrader
    Registered: May 2007
    Recently Beleg suggested that maybe an option for the 'enhanced' enforcers would be necessary - maybe he was right.

    If you're playing on above-Normal difficulty things are made harder by the fix for the City always being on Normal. You can revert that by setting DisableDifficultyFix=true in SneakyOptions.ini. Neither that setting, nor the DifficultyFactor tweak affects savegames, so you can go back to defaults when no enforcers are around.

  23. #23
    New Member
    Registered: Jul 2004
    The problem is that new enforcers are unavoidable because of their sense distance. With streets so narrow and alternate routes so few I can see the only way to deal with this situation: total genocide. But I don't like this way.

    Keeper Compound
    I used some old savegame to start this mission. I did not encouner any bugs except the old one: invisible diamond tiara in the Caduca's chest. You can't see it but can get it if keep frobbing.

  24. #24
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2006
    Location: Deutschland
    Thanks for the reports. I will try to squeeze in some tweaking before going on vacation on Thursday. The enforcer's awareness shouldn't be much increased, but if the City sections are running on HARD/EXPERT, thanks to snobel's fix, it's probably too much. Remember that you can see them when looking carefully. But it might be a good idea to reduce their invisibility frequency. This should make them flash more often and also decrease the time they remain invisible after being killed or knocked out.

    Edit: Floating lamp fixed, along with a sofa stuck inside a column outside the rotunda. Edwina's barks are triggered by bark objects but since her room in the tower is far away from the dining room, I cannot explain this – unless some orphaned copies got stuck there when combining the maps. I'll have a look, same goes for the volumes which handle the wine thing. But Curtis shouldn't show up at Garrett's apartment the day after, should he?
    Last edited by Beleg Cúthalion; 8th Apr 2014 at 05:32.

  25. #25
    New Member
    Registered: Jul 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by Beleg Cúthalion View Post
    City sections are running on HARD/EXPERT
    Yes usually I am playing on Expert except Moira mansion where I switched to Hard. But I had no problems with NPCs in the City until I've met enforcers. I want to ghost around them but I can't. Maybe this is doable but it's far beyond my capabilities..

    Quote Originally Posted by Beleg Cúthalion View Post
    But Curtis shouldn't show up at Garrett's apartment the day after, should he?
    But the letter was there. It looked like I grabbed widow's gold but I didn't even open that chest.
    As far as I know:
    Wine+no kills+not to take gold = thanks from the widow
    Wine+no kills(?)+to take gold = nothing, just letter is in the street
    No wine+to take gold = vengeful thug.

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