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Thread: Thief 3 Gold - Public beta test (TDS Spoilers ahead, obviously!)

  1. #101
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2006
    Location: Deutschland
    OK, I'll have a look at Lord Ember's convo then. However, if I ever heard it it's been a long time. I haven't messed with Heartless Perry at all IIRC, I only remember this bug from a time when the day-to-day transition didn't work yet for the new maps. Hm... In any case, I'm probably too busy until Monday, so any tweaking can happen only next week. Maybe we should delay the hotfix until then, after all with only the digits in the integer file being affected, there is no need for shipping new maps as yet.

    Edit: After a quick glance into T3Ed it seems like the Lord Ember convos should work. He has things to say to three of his guards, the furthest away the one on the outer platform. His patrol should lead to all three eventually. I probably too the third guard down to quickly when testing so I couldn't hear it.

    Edit2: Found the bug, Ember thinks he cannot leave his room. Something invisible messed up the navigation mesh. I'll take care of it later.
    Last edited by Beleg Cúthalion; 13th Aug 2014 at 10:46.

  2. #102
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2003
    Quote Originally Posted by snobel View Post
    The path in ProgramData is the default, but the SU installer has an option to select a custom path for FM installation. That's probably the case here.
    Correct. I have all my downloaded fan missions (For Thief 1/Thief 2/Thief 3/SS2) in G:\Fan Missions\[Gamename] and have set up the fmsel to install them in an FMs folder in each game's install directory.

  3. #103
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2006
    Location: Deutschland
    Luckily the error could be found elsewhere. Have you tried changing the first number in the Ints.txt instead of the third one?

  4. #104
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2003
    Quote Originally Posted by Beleg Cúthalion View Post
    Luckily the error could be found elsewhere. Have you tried changing the first number in the Ints.txt instead of the third one?
    Yes, I just did Had to load a saved game on Hard difficulty and restart it on Expert, but I was able to finish the mansion on Expert, looting everything but the inheritance (Got to 90% loot grabbing everything else). Worked like a charm. Gonna continue with the clock tower in a few days.

  5. #105
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2002
    Location: College Place, WA
    It is possible to prevent guards carrying torches from DYING after being blackjacked and falling on the torch? I swear. It happens every time.
    *Thunk*
    *Collapses on torch*
    *Screams in pain*
    *Dead*
    ...
    *Sigh*
    *Reload*

  6. #106
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2006
    Location: Deutschland
    I have thought about this myself and there are probably ways to do it (like immediately delete the stimulus of the torch once the AI is unconscious) but I wonder if that wouldn't be one of the difficulties that should remain in the game. We cannot build it around a completely smooth and clean stealth experience IMHO.

  7. #107
    Sneaky Upgrader
    Registered: May 2007
    In TDM you can pick up bodies while they're dropping, but that's probably hard to copy? Another way would be to extend the time (or decrease the damage) so that you have just enough time to pick him up (on Expert - on lower difficulties increasingly longer). Would that be possible?

  8. #108
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2002
    Location: College Place, WA
    It's not a difficulty because it's essentially random. It's an annoyance. It cannot be mitigated by skill, only by attempting it several times. As a player, it simply breaks immersion and lessens my experience.
    Is there a purpose to have a fire stimulus on the torch anyway (at least of that magnitude)? As far as I know, they don't use it to light torches that have gone out, which would seem logical. Besides, it's unrealistic to have a torch that kills instantly. If an unconscious body fell on a torch, it would just smother the flame.
    Random, unrealistic, annoying, breaks immersion.
    It's your call, but the whole point of this project I thought was to provide a better player experience.

    On another note:
    If you douse a torch, or frob out a candle, and immediately look away, the smoke particles will remain in the exact state they were when you looked away until you look back. Wandering back through a mission to see torches you doused a half hour ago smoke is also immersion breaking.

  9. #109
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2006
    Location: Deutschland
    I will have a look at this next week hopefully. The stimulus is for the damage, don't know if I can do anything about frobbing k.o.ed AIs earlier. One could even consider re-lighting torches while we're at it. The smoke emitters that stay there when you look away have bothered me, too, but I guess I can only do a workaround like deleting them in any case five seconds or so after they have been created. All of these changes would affect the GameSys, so this might be snobel's chance to shout Veto! because it could disallow having other tweaks (like the Minimalist Project alongside).

  10. #110
    Sneaky Upgrader
    Registered: May 2007
    Yeah, losing compatibility with the MP would be a great pity. I'd at least lobby strongly for postponing gamesys-affecting changes until a later release.

  11. #111
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2006
    Location: Deutschland
    Good news on two ends: Lord Ember's navmesh could be fixed, he's now patrolling out of his chamber again and chastising his guards. Their snide replies still play when he is facing them, so maybe I can do a little fine tuning and make him go away quicker.

    I've also changed the torch smoke emitter script so it deletes the emitter eight seconds after a fire has been extinguished. This avoids coming back and see the smoke hours later. However, I cannot make the emitter play even when Garrett looks away unfortunately, so if you look away within these eight seconds and look back again, you might see the emitter suddenly vanish in mid-"animation". The again, it works without changing GameSys, I "only" have to re-build every single map with torches and fireplaces.

  12. #112
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2002
    Location: College Place, WA
    Thoughts on The Blue Heron Inn
    There seems to be a seam of some sort at the start of the mission.

    You can kill the first guard after completing the first training. However, he's immortal. 5 seconds after killing or blackjacking him, he gets back up. This is probably because he's used again in the second training, and after completing the 2nd training, he's immortal and oblivious to you again. Perhaps using two separate guards would be best here. Ion probably just used one to save xbox memory. If the level were ever turned into a "proper" level with different difficulty settings and no training, you'd want to use 2 guards anyhow.

    I've always wanted to be able to put out this torch behind the bars in the basement of the Inn, near the water arrow training.
    Also this fireplace, down the basement hall. In DromEd, you can specify a "pore size" to allow objects smaller than the pore size to pass right through the object with the "pore size" property. Is there anything like that for Thief3?

    You cannot frob out these candles at the front desk. Sad day. Er, night.

    After completing the Noisemaker training, this guy becomes immortal. He might be the guard teleported to the kitchen later.

    Speaking of the kitchen, the cooking fires cannot be extinguished.

    Rutherford Castle
    There is a floating sword in the armory.

    There's some terrain issues at the top of the stairs that lead down to the vault.
    Last edited by AntiMatter_16; 18th Aug 2014 at 23:33.

  13. #113
    Sneaky Upgrader
    Registered: May 2007
    In case anyone's up for a bit of additional testing, here's a T3G FM Special preview of the SneakyTweaker tool. Unpack and run from anywhere. Feedback is welcome of course, but best posted in the SU thread unless it's T3G specific.

    The current status is:

    • The T3G options work. As we've discovered, the enforcer option can be changed on the fly (as long as you reload after changing it). When changed to Standard from one of the other settings it takes a few seconds before they become visible
    • The Sneaky Upgrade options are in place, except for the gamepad stuff. If the plaintext saves option has been enabled when clicking Apply or OK it will look for existing old-style saves and offer to convert them. Note that not all options will be exposed through the GUI
    • The Minimalist and John P sections are all empty GUI - but you can see what settings will be available
    • There's not much error checking in place, so don't try to deliberately break it...

    The top level pages have descriptions adapted from the original readme files (or original post for the MP). The one for the SU will probably be replaced with some instructions on how to use the mods.

    Next up is Minimalist. When that's in place it should be easy, if a bit tedious, to get John P in place as well.


  14. #114
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2002
    Location: College Place, WA
    There's some... odd lighting behavior in Garrett's building. Observe:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okH4_Pwofho

  15. #115
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2006
    Location: Deutschland
    I haven't tackled the Inn mission yet, but I'll try not to forget your reports, AntiMatter. Thanks for the other ones, I fixed the two in the Castle mission. The odd lighting behaviour is caused by zone portals which divide the level geometry into sections so that only the ones visible are rendered. So the light goes out as soon as the portal closing off the staircase gets out of view, despite the fact that the light from there (sometimes even larger objects) should still be visible. I have deleted the one portal now because it doesn't bring any noticeable performance increase in this small map but it might not always be possible. Still, if you find other noteworthy examples, I can always try to move the portals or do other stuff to make the effect less obvious.

  16. #116
    Member
    Registered: Jun 1999
    Location: Procrastination, Australia
    Excellent work as always

    My version is a couple of weeks old and I don't know if there's been any updates. I've only found one invisible Enforcer so far and that's the one in Garrett's apartment. But I don't recall if I turned that option on or not.

    Either way, extremely cool.

    Did you have to concoct that feature out of the Keeper 'Spell Caster' power or is that something that was in the game but they never turned on?
    They make a whole lot more sense like this, in any case.

  17. #117
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2006
    Location: Deutschland
    The invisibility feature is already in the game, Keeper elders can give their allies a boost with that (few typical Thief players experience this I assume, but you can check the FM "Creature Clash 3" and throw some Keepers into the arena). It was a compromise since I cannot make the enforcers avoid lit areas (well, one could do it in an FM with a careful artificial setup...I have plans...) while normal NPCs still act and patrol normally. Having them visible but not reacting to civilians (and vice-versa) would be quite a stretch, that's why the two features are combined. Most of these tweaks were discussed here in a thread some years ago, the telepathy thing for instance wasn't my idea. Glad you like it!

  18. #118
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2002
    Location: College Place, WA
    Is it possible to allow Garrett to blackjack people that are sitting down?

    Some notes on the city:

    Southquarter:
    In the house near the well, this candle's light seems to penetrate the fireplace mantel.
    The grate of the blackmail dropoff point is oddly silent when moved. It also overlaps the wood frame around it.
    Another minor light oddity, at the entrance to Stonemarket.
    There's an iron fence next to Garrett's building that's visible through a building from a distance.
    The entrance to Heartless Perry's shop has some oddities.
    Oddities in the ceiling of the entrance to Back Alley. You might consider removing the wall in the tunnel, since it's probably only there so fewer polys can be shown on the screen at one time.
    The edge of this wood plank in front of Pavelock prison flickers.
    Torch casts light through wall by small shop.
    This plank under the deck across from Garret's building is a little short.

    StoneMarket Plaza:
    In the tavern behind the bar, when you steal the fine wine, this bottle adjacent to it always falls.
    In Mr. Brent's apartment, his candles retain their coronas when frobbed out. They also make no extinguish sound.
    Outside Terces Courtyard, there is a garden missing its dirt.
    The level transition effects bleed through the wall at the entrance to the keeper compound before its revealed to you.
    At the top of staircase by Terces Courtyard, the light from a torch bleeds through the wall.

    Stonemarket Proper:
    This ledge above the entrance to this area, cannot be traversed. You get stuck on the little pillar there.
    In Cothron's Armory, his three candles retain their corona's when frobbed out, and don't make the extinguished sound when you do so.
    The Back door to Crowley's shop sinks into the wall when open.

    Also, Stonemarket Plaza, and Stonemarket Proper are BEGGING to be merged.
    Last edited by AntiMatter_16; 20th Aug 2014 at 17:04.

  19. #119
    Member
    Registered: Jun 1999
    Location: Procrastination, Australia
    I would imagine merging the Stonemarkets would be a nightmare thanks to the whole clocktower situation

    Quote Originally Posted by Beleg Cúthalion View Post
    Most of these tweaks were discussed here in a thread some years ago, the telepathy thing for instance wasn't my idea. Glad you like it!
    Yeah I'm a little late to the party on all this. How's the telepathy thing work? It's more than just the weird voices I take it. Can they actually call each other from longer distances?

    That's how I assumed they would work when I first encountered them ten years back. But it seems mostly that vanilla Enforcers were just typical aggressive AIs in most respects. Making them more interesting is a generally good thing.

  20. #120
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2006
    Location: Deutschland
    You can try to get caught by one enforcer (especially in Old Quarter where there are the most), not be killed and wait for a while until they rally. The idea of this telepathy thing was that all enforcers in the area would know your location if only one saw you.

    @AntiMatter: Thanks for the homework. I'll look into that later. But as Muzman said, I can have a try but merging the City sections is probably too much a hassle. Maybe adding Garrett's apartment to SQ could work but even that would mean to change all the teleport destination actors leading back to it. I hadn't even thought of the Clocktower in Stonemarket. Plus, beta testing the new maps would be even more time-consuming, after all eight or nine game days need to be checked in detail.

  21. #121
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2002
    Location: College Place, WA
    I'd say the Stonemarkets are a particularly good candidate for merging, because they're drawn on the same map page and were probably intended to be a single area. You even enter the Clocktower from Stonemarket Plaza, not Stonemarket proper where it's actually located, IIRC. Garrett's Building and South Quarter are good candidates to be merged, too. I understand that it's a lot of work and testing, so don't kill yourself, but I think it would provide a way better experience.

    In other news...
    Pagan Sanctuary:
    Two plants in the canal are floating in mid air initially, until bumped. The rock behind the first one is also permeable to the player.
    The dagger hit sounds don't play when attacking the treebeast in the sewer canals.
    This pipe support is experiencing some Z-fighting. It also goes right through the pipe, while all others support the pipe from below. Recommend moving it to appear like the others.
    Some kind of haze in the hole leading from the sewers to the sanctuary. It's visible only from the top down.
    Lighting problems from a torch.
    In this video, witness the disappearing world. There also appears to be some difficulty with mantling on that edge at the end. Perhaps an invisible wall to prevent players from falling to their death?
    Z-fighting on a couple of doorways, and some beams.
    Is the floating lock unique to this door, or all doors?
    There are two arrows here and one (hilighted) is sunk into the barrel.
    Because of the low angle, this gap in the rock through which the skybox is visible always broke immersion for me. Recommend obscuring the sky.

    More SouthQuarter:
    Light leaking through a door.
    Z-Fighting on a windowsill.

  22. #122
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2006
    Location: Deutschland
    Wow, I hope I'll have the time to fix all that next week. If you look closely, the original maps have tons of these glitches. I should probably set myself a certain threshold for fixing. But they are annoying, I give you that. Still easier than merging Stonemarket, though.

  23. #123
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2006
    Location: Deutschland
    Quote Originally Posted by AntiMatter_16 View Post
    Southquarter:
    In the house near the well, this candle's light seems to penetrate the fireplace mantel.
    The grate of the blackmail dropoff point is oddly silent when moved. It also overlaps the wood frame around it.
    Another minor light oddity, at the entrance to Stonemarket.
    There's an iron fence next to Garrett's building that's visible through a building from a distance.
    The entrance to Heartless Perry's shop has some oddities.
    Oddities in the ceiling of the entrance to Back Alley. You might consider removing the wall in the tunnel, since it's probably only there so fewer polys can be shown on the screen at one time.
    The edge of this wood plank in front of Pavelock prison flickers.
    Torch casts light through wall by small shop.
    This plank under the deck across from Garret's building is a little short.
    Just fixed these as far as I could. I wouldn't take out the wall in the transition to Black Alley even though it clearly is a performance thing. However, it would change the basic map layout and also require to move the red hand icon. Perry's shop is a total mess with regards to the navmesh, I might have to have another look if it turns out that AIs cannot handle it.

  24. #124
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2006
    Location: Deutschland
    Quote Originally Posted by AntiMatter_16 View Post
    StoneMarket Plaza:
    In the tavern behind the bar, when you steal the fine wine, this bottle adjacent to it always falls.
    In Mr. Brent's apartment, his candles retain their coronas when frobbed out. They also make no extinguish sound.
    Outside Terces Courtyard, there is a garden missing its dirt.
    The level transition effects bleed through the wall at the entrance to the keeper compound before its revealed to you.
    At the top of staircase by Terces Courtyard, the light from a torch bleeds through the wall.
    Did all of that yesterday except for the candle issue (ok, haven't tested the wine yet but I moved the bottles). While I've managed to get their emitters disappear by changing a script, the extinguishing sound and smoke probably need fixing, too. It looks like a mix-up by the devs when you look at the properties, scripts and links of the candle objects in the archetype browser. Hopefully this can be done without changing the GameSys (well, I can always change things for every affected candle in a map, but you guys know what that means...).

    What I like about it is that you always find out what they did and where they did wrong. The garden dirt brush for instance is present, but it is overridden by a subtraction brush in the street. I changed their order and now the dirt is there. I've got a brush of dirt, I've got a brush of dirt...

  25. #125
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2002
    Location: College Place, WA
    Since you're aiming to maintain compatibility with the minimalist project Gamesys, maybe some testing would be in order to see how Thief3 reacts when the gamesys is changed from one custom gamesys to another. It might handle it better than you think. In Thief2 Fixed, you can actually drop in the original gamesys with no problems that I ever found.
    Another option would be to include an updated minimalist project gamesys, that you have updated and verified works with the fixed levels. This might be your best option, actually, if you were planning to change ALL instances of candles and torches in all levels.
    I'm actually surprised about the candle smoke solution. IIRC, In Thief1 and Thief2, you can set a 'sim' setting on particles, so that they continue to update when not on screen, which prevents such issues. I'm surprised there isn't something similar in Thief3. Maybe ask around?

    Anyhow.
    Saint Edgar's Cathedral

    Flame particles are visible beneath this statue.

    The front doors are misaligned so that light seeps through the west door. They also both sink into the terrain when open.

    The Flying Buttresses have some z-fighting on them.
    Nearby, there's some sloppy brushwork.

    I would expect that these wall mounted candles near the front entrance should be able to be frobbed out.
    Same with these candles and these candles by the Suspension Cage.
    And this candle in the barracks. And this one.

    This machine doesn't make its electrical buzz sound until it's been turned off and turned on again.
    Similarly, this machine is silent until turned on and off. There's something odd though. If you turn the machine back on before the light finishes fading, the light's state gets reversed, that is, the light turns off when the machine gets turned on, and the light turns on when the machine gets turned off.

    Light leakage by the flying buttresses.
    Light leakage behind a pillar.
    Light leakage near the entrance to the factory.
    Light leakage on the 1st floor of the factory.
    Light leakage on the 2nd floor of the factory.
    Light leakage by the exit from the factory.

    Some odd lighting in the factory prison cell, and some sort of seam in the ceiling.
    Odd lighting in the catwalk on the 2nd floor of the sanctuary.

    I'll be unbelievably pedantic here, because I was the same way with Thief2 fixed, but the textures on these wood supports would suggest the support is made of two beams, when it would be constructed of a single beam.
    The alcove textures in this small chapel and in the other small chapel don't match the floor alignment.

    The initial pose of this Zombie is pretty odd. Looks like the default pose.

    Also, was there really only ever 1 map page for this level?

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