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View Poll Results: How would you rate NuThief?

Voters
126. You may not vote on this poll
  • 10 - Masterpiece

    2 1.59%
  • 9 - Amazing

    4 3.17%
  • 8 - Great

    8 6.35%
  • 7 - Good

    16 12.70%
  • 6 - Okay

    18 14.29%
  • 5 - Mediocre

    25 19.84%
  • 4 - Bad

    18 14.29%
  • 3 - Awful

    10 7.94%
  • 2 - Painful

    9 7.14%
  • 1 - Disaster

    16 12.70%
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Thread: How would you rate NuThief?

  1. #126
    New Member
    Registered: Dec 2014
    What is it with all these game developers that actually want to be film directors? Because that's where the major problems with Thief 4 actually come from. Overly linear level design, inappropriate cut scenes (literally every mission I've played so far has involved a cut scene where Garret is caught. The last one had two.), points of no return and of course the f***ing context sensitive movement. They all stem from this desire to show you their experience, not allow you to create your own. Thief 4 is far from the only game to suffer from this.

    Which is a shame because I reckon there's actually a decent game under all the Hollywoodism, and it actually improves the mechanics of the originals in a few ways. I feel a lot of the other criticisms thrown at it are ludicrous nitpicking by people determined to hate the game and holding it to a ridiculously high standard by which even the original games would be found wanting. Or bandwagon jumping nonsense like that Kotaku article.

    I move we attach a collar to all game developers that delivers a mild electric shock every time they utter the word "cinematic".
    Last edited by demagogue; 14th Dec 2014 at 20:51. Reason: Thief forums censor language by policy

  2. #127
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Vertigo, DragonSand, Xeen
    And with that I welcome you to the Luxurious Fabulous Thief IV Forum. I do hope you enjoy your stay.

  3. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Tim_Ward View Post
    Or bandwagon jumping nonsense like that Kotaku article.
    Not sure what you mean by this. Kotaku's criticism matches some of the same things you're criticizing (linear levels, points of no return, contextual movement). Who's jumping which bandwagon, exactly?

  4. #129
    New Member
    Registered: Dec 2014
    Quote Originally Posted by Brethren View Post
    Not sure what you mean by this. Kotaku's criticism matches some of the same things you're criticizing (linear levels, points of no return, contextual movement). Who's jumping which bandwagon, exactly?
    It has valid points in it, but the willfully petty and closed minded nature of much of his criticisms makes me think he was looking for reasons to attack the game and generally not approaching it with an open mind.

    I can understand this attitude in your old-school, hardcore Thief fan (I am old school, but not hardcore, myself). Thief was something genuinely special, it means a lot to a lot of people and the new one kinda takes a dump on a lot of what it stood for with its space-bar tapping parkour antics and boarderline QTE nonsense. Fine, I can see why a lot of the fanbase of the old games might not want to give it the time of day.

    But, really, if you're not of the fanbase (and if you are you really shouldn't be reviewing the game), if you don't have that baggage, then what exactly is your excuse? When you dedicate an entire paragraph to slating it for the repetitive ambient dialogue or other criticisms which, while true, are minor at best and could be applied to any number of other games released in the past few years then the impression I get from the review is that the writer wants to fit in with the cool kids and hate Thief, but doesn't actually understand where the cool kids are coming from or why they have the attitude they have. Hence, bandwagon jumping. I mean, taken on it's own Thief is basically a fun game, and with better level design, a decent editor for the plot and the reintroduction of the advanced functionality known as the 'jump' key it could have been blinding. To read that review, you'd think it had nothing going for it which is simply unfair.

  5. #130
    NewDark 64³ Contest Winner
    Registered: Jul 2005
    Location: Locked Inside Dromed


    Of course the criticism Kotaku gives is petty and closed minded, since that's what they are. They probably hated it because it aspired to be something better, but ultimately failed to be that, when in their eyes it should've followed in the vein of Assassin's Creed, Mirror's Edge or Ryse: Son of Rome. I was fully prepared to enjoy it if it was good, even if it was different than the old school, much like reading the newest Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy book not written by Douglas Adams himself (which was crap by the way). After all, in this age of ~gulp~ new media, how could it not be different?
    Last edited by Xorak; 15th Dec 2014 at 21:19. Reason: Sorry, I always wanted to use that picture.

  6. #131
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: The Plateaux Of Mirror
    Quote Originally Posted by Xorak View Post
    Assassin's Creed, Mirror's Edge or Ryse: Son of Rome.
    If Thief 4 had borrowed from Mirror's Edge instead of Assassin's Creed it would have been a better game imo.

  7. #132
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2011
    Thief made Kotaku's Biggest Disappointments of 2014 list. I wonder if it will show up elsewhere?

    Few names in video games are more storied than Thief. The series more or less invented the stealth-simulation genre back in the 90s, and after a decline in quality over the years, felt ripe for a triumphant reboot. When word arrived that a new Thief game was being made by Eidos Montreal, the same studio responsible for the terrific Deus Ex: Human Revolution, we were psyched. But when the game came out, it was a real stinker, earning a place among the year's worst. How did it all go so wrong? Rumors and reports suggest the game's development was deeply troubled, with constant changes in personnel and leadership resulting in a project with no clear direction. Whatever happened, Thief was a woeful disappointment. Garrett deserved better.

  8. #133
    and after a decline in quality over the years
    That's kind of an odd thing to say. They phrase it as if there had been numerous mediocre sequels and expansions punched out during the decade after Thief 2, ala Hitman/Assassin's Creed/Resident Evil. It's pretty tough to define a "decline in quality over the years" to one single game (TDS).

  9. #134
    Member
    Registered: May 2005
    Location: Full on Kevel's mom
    Maybe they didn't like Thief 2 as much as TDP or something.

  10. #135
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: The Plateaux Of Mirror
    Depending on my mood I'd rank the sequels anywhere between 2nd and 4th. There are things I like about all 3 followup games and things about each I find highly dubious. Thief Gold is as close to perfection as you can get though.

  11. #136
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Vertigo, DragonSand, Xeen
    Thief: The Dark Project is the undisputed classic of the series. You just said so yourself. There are only 4 Thief games, and if the sequels are ranked "anywhere between 2nd and 4th" then, well, that only leaves one slot for 'ol Dark Project. So, any word on a Thief 5 yet? Peace.

  12. #137
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2002
    Location: Edmonton
    Quote Originally Posted by Abysmal View Post
    Also, anyone who says "well at least this new Thief is better than T3" is out of their goddamned mind. Get your taste checked
    I'm one of those people. T3 maybe was more true to the series in terms of atmosphere, but it was so clunky and awkward. Instead of making me feel empowered, I always felt I was fighting against the controls; even just trying to turn around was a chore. Having to install a series of mods that make it slightly less awkward in some ways and moreso in others doesn't count.

    I do love the sound design, particularly the music, but T3 just isn't as fun to play. At least with New Thief they got the movement right.

  13. #138
    Level 10,000 achieved
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Finland
    Yup, I'm with Aja on that one.

    Also how do I check my taste? Do I need to lick something?

  14. #139
    New Member
    Registered: Aug 2014
    Location: Thief : Deadly Shadows
    Thief III added Dynamic Lights, interactive light sources (candles) and (bad) physics.

    What does Thief IV is adding ?

    I am interested in *interactivity* as more interactive light sources and more "carriable objects". The AI is lightly affected by objects thrown at it in Thief III. Killing guards by throwing swords from great heights is definitively what Garrett would do.

    I never seen this feature in any game but I want Garrett and guards gaining a better vision over time in really dark places. To continue this idea, any sudden change in light level will blur the vision and blind you for ~5 seconds.

    A temperature engine could be an interesting touch. Guards will notice big changes of temperature. This means that they will notice an extinguished fireplace even if it is behind a door and there is no light changes. I really want sleeping guards to wake up after some time if you remove a heat source near them. I am sure that no one likes to sleep in the cold.

    Is the Light Gem and Sound Propagation broken ?

    I have heard from reviews that the AI can spot you even if you are in total darkness.

    =============

    Thief I, Thief II are both "non-linear gameplay" games with a strong immersion forces. The emergent "non-scripted" AI, the advanced mechanics (sound propagation system) and amazing story telling made them unique at their time.

    Thief III : Deadly Shadows tried to be different from their predecessors with a physics engine, dynamic lightning and an open-ended City. The amount of bugs makes Thief III less enjoyable than Thief I and Thief II (for most players).

    It would be sad if Thief IV didn't continue the trend by adding new technologies and improving the storytelling. The game engines offer more capabilities nowadays and tend less to bug. Half-Life 2 used a special technology that allowed their NPCs to express convincing [facial] emotions.

    Would it be possible to create a Thief game nowadays that will influence gaming as Thief : DP and Deus Ex did at their times ?

    Besides a good engine and good investors (give as much money and time needed), what are the other factors for a successful development cycle ?


    ====================

    Is it worth buying Thief IV for myself ? (according to first section)

    Can you stack crates in Thief IV ?

    Is there any killer bugs as AI walking against walls ?

  15. #140
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2001
    Location: the Sheeple Pen
    Quote Originally Posted by Unclaimed Channel View Post
    A temperature engine could be an interesting touch. Guards will notice big changes of temperature. This means that they will notice an extinguished fireplace even if it is behind a door and there is no light changes. I really want sleeping guards to wake up after some time if you remove a heat source near them. I am sure that no one likes to sleep in the cold.
    I don't think that'd be very realistic. A fireplace stores heat so it doesn't instantly get cold when the fire goes out. As for sleeping guards, they'd probably just sleep better as most people tend to sleep better when it's a bit colder.

    Is the Light Gem and Sound Propagation broken ?

    I have heard from reviews that the AI can spot you even if you are in total darkness.
    Light gem, no. It doesn't have as many different "stages" of darkness/light as the light gem in the previous games, but it's definitely not broken. The AI may spot you in darkness if you're in motion or if you're very close to them (or make noise, obviously), but I think that's just how it should be. I had no problem with how the light gem and all that stuff works, I thought it was excellent.

    Sound propagation, however, that's a different story. I think it's fair to say that it is indeed broken, and unless they've fixed that in recent patches (and I really doubt that they have), it's one thing that could really prevent a True Thief Fan (tm) from enjoying the game. While the older Thief games rely very much on the audio, it seems that the new Thief is all about the visual side (which admittedly is very nice) whereas the audio seems to play a much smaller role. Audio is still important, but it's buggy in some places so don't rely on it too much.

    Would it be possible to create a Thief game nowadays that will influence gaming as Thief : DP and Deus Ex did at their times ?
    I'm sure that it would be possible, but I think it's much harder to impress (and be influential) nowadays. Thief was born in the time when the 3D graphics card for example were really starting to take off and PC gaming entered a whole new era. Gaming and computers have come a long way since that, and I feel that there would have to be something truly innovative to impress people these days. What would that be then? I have no idea.

    Is it worth buying Thief IV for myself ?
    If you want a classic Thief replica, then no. But if you don't mind the occasional bug and the fact that the new Thief takes more than just a few liberties here and there, and think that you might enjoy an otherwise good stealth game, then go for it.

    Can you stack crates in Thief IV ?
    Nope.

    Is there any killer bugs as AI walking against walls ?
    I've seen that happen but very rarely, so I wouldn't call it a killer bug. That happened a lot more often in the originals. The bugs with the sound propagation are the worst that there are, in my opinion.

  16. #141
    There was a bug with guards just spinning in place:


  17. #142
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: The Plateaux Of Mirror
    Did that bug happen anywhere else? I'm genuinely curious, because that's the only place I remember seeing it in one of my own playthroughs.

  18. #143
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2001
    Location: the Sheeple Pen
    It was just that one place I think. At least I've never seen it happen anywhere else either.

  19. #144
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2005
    Location: Ireland
    This post will contain spoilers so please don't read if you have not completed the game.

    Well I just finished this the other day. It has genuinely left me very confused about how I feel about it. I think it's important to view this first as a game in the Thief series and secondly as a standard new release in the modern games industry.

    As a Thief game, I think it nailed a lot of the essentials, the atmosphere, the setting, the stealth element, all that appears fine to me. Even the voice acting is pretty good although I would have preferred Stephen Russell.

    Where this game falls short in my opinion is the plot. It's really disappointing, slow paced and nothing of note really happens. You plod along from one mission to the next and wait for some revelation that never comes. It appears to me that the developers designed a set of completely unrelated levels and developed a plot around them afterwards (e.g. A prison, an asylum, a brothel, etc.). In general the missions are largely forgettable. There's only one proper larger mansion mission in the whole game. The inclusion of the asylum mission was a bit cheap I thought. This was already done to much better effect in Deadly Shadows so why try to recreate this?

    My biggest gripe with the whole game however is the complete disregard for the previous games in the series. I kept waiting for some references but they rarely come along. The only references I can think of are some Keeper symbols in the brothel mission, the Hammer Cathedral and Garrett's eye. I understand that it's kind of a reboot but they could have thrown a few more bones to the fans.

    When viewed simply as a new release and not just a game in the Thief series, I actually think it's pretty good. Nothing spectacular but it's enjoyable and I found myself engrossed in the gameplay. Not much more to be said about it than that really. It's okay, not great but not terrible either. Considering how wrong this could have gone we should consider ourselves relatively lucky but that's not much of a complement either.

  20. #145
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2008
    Location: Slovakia - Zemplín region
    I voted 5-Mediocre, but to clarify, I actually think it's between 5 and 6, both at the same time, whathaveyou.

    ----

    Something of a personal review

    Taken on its own merits as well as the merits of the series, it is not an awful game. However, it is also not a particularly good one either. The worst thing that this semi-reboot does is squander its own potential.

    Looking at it from a purely technical perspective:
    - the sound is not always utilised as well or as deeply as it should have been, and even professional reviewers have repeatedly noted that some of the sampling and loops have severe problems and create weird bugs and anomalies during parts of the gameplay. That's a shame, as I expected they'd polish the sound at least as much as the graphics.
    - though I don't mind linearity in games - even in Thief - I think they went overboard with trying to railroad the player in nearly every environment. I'm not the type who has to jump and climb up to everywhere and search absolutely everything, so I would be fine with certain confines, but to do so for most of the game and to make places with greater freedom of movement rare and highly predetermined, that's just lazy and uncreative. The complete absence of player-triggered jumping and the obsession with restricting your rope arrows only to certain places in a map really takes away your pleasure at exploring an environment and pretending you're a professional burglar. I'm sorry, but it does break immersion, especially later on, after you've played for quite a while. You stop feeling like a part of the game world and keep realising you're playing just a rather pre-scripted game.
    - the guard AI and general reactions to the environment and changes in it (not only by you) is very lacking. I could go on and try to write about it more in-depth, but I'll just refer everyone to this video, showing plenty of evidence of AI incompetence and weakness. (Mind you, that gameplay video was taken on the highest difficulty level.) The whole AI malarkey is perhaps the most disappointing aspect of the new game. As much as they tried their best to make Garrett act and move stealthily and give him mostly sensible stealthy equipment, it all falls flat when the cratsmanship put into the graphics and particle effects is far better polished than the AI of enemy NPCs that are supposed to be obstacles to you !

    Looking at it from a narrative and writing perspective:
    - it's all too evident that ideas had been changed and rewritten back and forth, back and forth, and none of the creative teams that worked on this aspect of the game were sure what they wanted from the storyline and what type of storytelling should they utilise.
    - I don't get why they excised the basic factions from the lore to such an extent, yet still gave them oddly present glorified cameos in a certain level. I honestly just don't get the point of this decision... It wouldn't have been bad if the old factions had no life left in them and the new ones were at least as original, or cooler, or more relevant to the timeframe of the setting. But they aren't, not much. Keepers not being present I don't mind, but the absence of Hammerites and Pagans is certainly felt, and not in a good way. They didn't need to take center stage, but some side role and set dressing like in TDS would suffice. The City seems implausibly irreligious under the House of Northcrest baron. What is he, some atheistic Cromwell-type ? I didn't get that vibe from him. Well, the problem with the revolutionaries (The Graven, right ?) is that they aren't particularly memorable - neither in details or in any other way. And the fact that Orion turns out to be more morally ambiguous then he seems at face value is a twist I saw coming from pretty much the very start.
    - the characterisation of a lot of the people in the game is either all over the place or just lazy. I think Erin's characterisation is just bloody awful, to the point that she comes across like a rather offensive caricature of a woman in general. "Feisty lady who stresses her intelligence/skills/cunning, but then acts like a bumbling fool" is one type of stock character I would gladly see extinct. Erin doesn't behave like either a normal or an unhinged person - instead, all her actions make her seem like little else than a walking bundle of contrived behaviour. Reboot!Basso's kind of one of the better supporting characters... But only so-so. While I like that they made him more of an earthy type this time around (presumably hinting that he's an older and jaded version of the original/past Basso), I still think his dialogue and general attitude are a bit clichéd. You know, the same old same old you'd expect to hear from a guy with his looks. And ol' G. ? Garrett is just... oddly boring. But I like Romano's voice acting, for the most part. He just needed a smarter script for Reboot/Future!Garrett.
    - there is a weird "split personality" approach to the topic of combat and violence: On one hand, they bravely chose to rid Garrett of any bladed weapons and emphasise stealth. On the other hand, they still left in unavoidable, overly-actiony chase sequences, where you're often forced to act very unstealthily. I wouldn't have minded a chase sequence with guards chasing me in the winding streets and alleys - note, just plainly, with exciting BGM, without QTE cutscene stuff ! - but the kind of chase sequence when you're jumping out of windows while bumping into guards along the way, and then playing Tarzan outside, is just overly flowerry. It borders on total kitsch. If I'd wanted to swoop around like Batman, I'd play a Batman game. Garrett is OK with ropes and climbing, but he's neither Batman, nor a ninja. Some people at Eidos Monty didn't get the memo.
    - perhaps the biggest sin of all: Most of the events and even most of Garrett's quips are either boring or feel forced. "Overwritten" is a term that comes to mind, sadly. Basically, instead of Raymond Chandler, we were treated to Amanda McKittrick Ros... Reboot!Thief is simply trying too hard to look cool and profound, and comes across as very clumsy or "Erm, whatever..." in return.

    Oh, and concerning all those comparisons with Dishonored:
    To me, Dishonored was in the spirit of the Thief series, a fact that I liked. But at the same time, it tried its own thing and did its own thing, it wasn't trying to ape Thief. It was using it (and other older stealth or RPG games) as a source of inspiration. However, the rebooted Thief, though I'm sad to admit it, often feels like the authors had no idea how to innovate this or that aspect of the series (or of a development idea they struggled with), and so just chose to more or less copy that kind of element from Dishonored. Not plagiarise (I think better of Eidos Monty, even of their more uncreative devs), but still lift from it heavily and sometimes quite blatantly. Now, there is nothing new under the sun, sure... But to be so starved for clever new gameplay ideas that you have to look for them in someone else's homage to the original Thief games, that's just... really silly. And kind of lazy.

    ----

    Nevertheless, I'm glad that there were people who enjoyed the new game and found it fun or at least interesting. I can't say I share that sentiment. To me, it was just a wasted opportunity, wasted potential, with a boring setup and script and with far too many technical/gameplay inconsistencies for it to be truly very good or outright excellent. This game was not doomed to fail and I had cautious and rather high hopes in it for years. The February 2014 previews elevated my optimism a bit, only for it to be dashed in the following weeks once the game came out and we could get a more hands-on experience with it.

    Whatever happened, if Eidos Monty ever gets to make a sequel or another reboot, I hope it will be better than this time around. I'd really like that to happen, I do want to wish them the best and keep my fingers crossed. I'm not calling them by an affectionate nickname for nothing - I do believe there's more to them as a studio than just what they are probably pressured into a lot of the times.
    Last edited by Petike the Taffer; 6th Jan 2015 at 00:04. Reason: typos

  21. #146
    Just finished Thief a few days ago. I was rather enthusiastic about the whole project at the very start, based on the positive experience that was Deus Ex: Human Revolution (apart from the horrible boss fights). As soon as the reviews were posted after the release of Thief my enthusiasm was greatly diminished, but I picked up the game at a heavily reduced price during a Steam Sale anyway.

    At first I thought the game was not as bad as I thought it would be. The restricted jumping didn't bother me all that much and the first missions, while quite smallish, were fine. The narrative handholding is something every aspiring AAA-title features nowadays, so I wasn't surprised to find it here. I'm not sure which game started this disease of heavily scripted sequences (was it Uncharted?), but it's a trend which should be reversed.

    After a while the game became somewhat repetitive and I really didn't like the new enemies introduced in the Asylum, but it wasn't until the first boss fight that I started screaming bloody murder at the game. At my custom difficulty level (no focus, which turned out to be a mistake in this instance) and heavily understocked on lethal arrows the stealthy approach to this fight proved more frustrating than challenging. I returned to the City angry, looted everything there and bought as many blast arrows as I could carry. The fight was a breeze then, but my experience with the game had turned sour. The final boss fight didn't help, as it forces you to become Garrett the Acrobatic Superhero again... Why?!

    Overall I thought the game was a mess and I agree with a lot of the points raised by Petike the Taffer. Characterisation, plotting and worldbuilding all felt disjointed. It was almost as if work was started on a proper sequel to Deadly Shadows, only for it to be scrapped halfway and replaced by this weird Victorian-style reimagining taking place in the same original universe. The game might have benefited from not being called Thief as the comparison to the previous installments is obviously rather unflattering. On the other hand, it would probably have been seen (even more) as a weak derivative of Dishonored...

    While I came to dislike the main plot and missions roughly around the Asylum level, I did enjoy roaming the City (despite its repetitive architecture and underpopulated streets) and completing the client jobs for Basso, Ector and Vittori. The client jobs took place in relatively small environs (The Bank Heist is nothing compared to vastness of First City Bank and Trust), but I thought they were much more enjoyable because they weren't so heavily scripted as a lot of the main missions.

    All in all, it's a shame Thief didn't get a proper sequel or even a reboot of high quality. I think it's too much to hope one will be produced in the future, considering the reception of the 2014 installment. Luckily the originals spawned an impressive amount of fan missions and projects, so I'll be playing those instead!

  22. #147
    New Member
    Registered: Jan 2015
    I gave it a 2 because it felt like one of those terrible fan missions. It has some really good ideas, it was just very poorly executed and like most bad fan missions; parts of it were really cool but the rest was painfully bad. (ESPECIALLY THE ENDING)

  23. #148
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2009
    Location: The Spiraling Sea
    Drum-roll please...



    With 100 votes, the average TTLG score for NuThief is...4.79

  24. #149
    ZylonBane
    Registered: Sep 2000
    Location: ZylonBane
    I rate your necrobumps a zero out of 100. You get no points, and may god have mercy on your soul.

  25. #150
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2009
    Location: The Spiraling Sea
    Quote Originally Posted by ZylonBane View Post
    I rate your necrobumps a zero out of 100. You get no points, and may god have mercy on your soul.
    I rate your necrophobia 100 out of 100!...May your soul find peace in the Realm of Forgetfulness!...

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