Help a noob.

[Gryzemuis]

Thanks for all the encouragement. I haven't tried to play tonight or last night. I will try again, but I'll need to be in the right mood.

To give you an idea how much I like my proven tools: for text-editing, I still use emacs. And I would not trade it in for any fancy notepad variety. Emacs does exactly what I want, it does it faster than any other fancy notepad/word-style editor. And I'm used to it for 20 years now.

I don't think the button-layout is the problem.
That seems pretty straightforward.

trigger-button -> right-hand attack
trigger-button + pinky-shift-button -> strong right hand attack
thumb mouse-button -> block
other big mouse-button -> strong left hand attack

It's the camera movement that sucks.
OK, I figured out how to control my movement, and not fall off ledges. There is a toggle for slow walking. But you can press Left-Alt to do the same thing. Problem solved. My joystick is now more controlled, and I don't fall off ledge anymore.
I guess I need to get used to press the "lock on button" all the time. The existence of that button itself is proof that the controls of this game are fucked up. If I could control my character like I could in WoW (with circle-strafing, etc), there would be no need for such a button.

I still have a half-finished second run through Thief 1 waiting for me. And the Dishonored DLC. And Eidolon. And The Dark Mod. I finished The Vanishing of Ethan Carter this week, awesome. (And it took me less than an hour to set up the controls, and that game has messed up controls/UI too).

Oh, today I read this about DS2's framerate:
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014...matic-than-60/

Hacking Dark Souls to raise the cap to 60fps, for example, will see you rolling shorter distances and possibly falling through the world on ladders.

I guess that is what I remembered. And I remember it being about DS2, not DS1. That's why I asked if I should limit my framerate to 30. (That can easily be done with nvidiaInspector. I just did it).

I played another hour of DS2. With a new character. Which has more life. I killed the simple undeads without losing too much health. When I jumped down that hole, I had enough life left to kill the 2 undeads there without dying. It's a start. Feeling slightly more confident about the controls now. I'll continue tomorrow.

[Renzatic]

I'm still not getting your camera control issues. Unless it's doing something incredibly weird for you, it controls almost exactly like WoW. It's not as fast, at least not with the analog sticks, but it pretty much acts like it, or any other 3rd person camera in any other game.

What exactly is it doing that makes it act so strangely?

edit: and you don't have to limit DS2 to 30 FPS. The problems with short rolls and falling through ladders only exist when you hack the framerate above 30 in the original DS.

[faetal]

I have a delicious meal on the plate in front of me, with fork and knife neatly placed beside the plate. I just have to figure out how to eat this stuff. So I took my shoes and socks off, held the fork between my toes, then balanced the knife between the fork's prongs. Then I folded my napkin over the knife and carefully lowered the knife to dip a corner of the napkin into the gravy.

Why would the restaurant present a meal like this? The meal looks like it might be delicious, but I'm really having a hard time eating it. I think my setup might work with a few tweaks, but right now I'm not able to get much more than the spare juices absorbed into my napkin.

This made me completely lose my shit. Good work

[Gryzemuis]

What exactly is it doing that makes it act so strangely?

I play all my games in first person view. Except for WoW. But after years and years of WoW on and off, you get used to it. There's a certain logic with WoW's movement. And DS2's movement is different.
1) You can't backpedal. You can't strafe. You can move in those directions, but your character will change the way he faces. That means you can't move backwards while fighting. And you can't circle-strafe.
2) In WoW, when you press W, your character moves forward. In DS2, it moves wherever your camera is pointing. You might be used to it, but for me, it's like my character is drunk and changes direction just like that. I might get used to it, but right now it feels like a huge handicap. Artificial difficulty.

I am used to moving my camera a lot. So I know what is happening around me. Awareness is crucial. In DS2 it's even more important, because you can't see further than 5 yards, because of artificial darkness. There is a spot of light around you, which moves when you move. But beyond those 5 yards, I can't see fuck. It makes the world maybe feel a bit more mysterious. But it also feels very artificial. And it makes me move my camera, which I guess I shouldn't do.

Besides WoW, I've played a lot of other MMOs. Age of Conan, Aion, Vanguard, Warhammer, Tera, GW2. Most of them were crap, and I didn't play them longer than 1 or 2 months. But most of them used the same movement and camera scheme as WoW did. And that was very convenient. Strafe is strafe, backpedal is backpedal. You get into the game in matter of hours, less than an hour. Maybe DS2's movement is like many/most other console games. I don't know, I never play console games.

edit: and you don't have to limit DS2 to 30 FPS. The problems with short rolls and falling through ladders only exist when you hack the framerate above 30 in the original DS.

I'm keeping it at 30 fps for now, just to be sure.

Questions:
- If you use my souls to level up as quickly as possible, without buying stuff or upgrading weapons and gear, would that hurt me ? Is having an extra level good to clear early areas ? Or does it make enemies harder ? (Remember Morrowind and Oblivion. If you'd level too quickly, while not developing your combat stills, you'd stay weak, while enemies became invincible. I don't wanna make such a mistake).

- I read somewhere that carrying stuff with weight slows down your combat. Your movement and rolling. I read somewhere that it is really a huge benefit to be light. Is that handicap only from the armor you are wearing (like in Morrowind), or also from stuff that is in your bags ? Is there a place to store stuff (like a bank in an MMO), can you leave it lying around somewhere, or in a chest ? Or do you have to carry it around all the time ?

[Renzatic]

The artificial darkness thing isn't something you have to deal with throughout the game. In the tutorial, you can light the torches to make everything easier to see.

As for the control scheme, yeah, I get what you're saying now. Most of those games have an FPS control scheme in a third person game. DS and DS2 are a little more loose in the sense that you can only circle strafe and backpeddle when you're locked onto a target, otherwise it's does the left and right steers your character rather than strafes thing, which is a little more of a console dual-analog specific thing when it comes to third person games.

For me, it feels perfectly natural. I've been playing console games for about forever, and the DS camera setup wasn't something I even had to think about. It just worked. I never once felt like I was struggling against it. That said, I can understand that it's something you have to acclimate yourself to, especially coming from a more PC specific background. But once you do, it'll eventually become second nature.

As for the rest...

Questions:
- If you use my souls to level up as quickly as possible, without buying stuff or upgrading weapons and gear, would that hurt me ? Is having an extra level good to clear early areas ? Or does it make enemies harder ? (Remember Morrowind and Oblivion. If you'd level too quickly, while not developing your combat stills, you'd stay weak, while enemies became invincible. I don't wanna make such a mistake).

DS doesn't use level scaling, and truthfully, leveling doesn't give you that much of an advantage in this game. You could spend hours grinding souls to overlevel your character, but all it'll do is make it so you can take one extra hit from a guy with a big, heavy axe.

Most of the skill in this game comes from understanding your enemies, understanding your weapons and armor, and developing tactics to attack them with. There will never be a point where you're invincible, and in turn, there isn't a single enemy or boss in the game you can't kill because you're too low level. Leveling up and getting better gear gives you better chances of survival, but in the end, it's all about you getting good.

Think of it like this: DS is a game that doesn't give anyone any advantages, either you or the bad guys (barring bosses, of course). Most of the enemies you come across can kill you just as fast as you can kill them, and are bound by the same rules you are. The only real advantage you have is that you can change tactics, while most enemies tend to stick to a (sometimes large) set of patterns.

I read somewhere that carrying stuff with weight slows down your combat. Your movement and rolling. I read somewhere that it is really a huge benefit to be light. Is that handicap only from the armor you are wearing (like in Morrowind), or also from stuff that is in your bags ? Is there a place to store stuff (like a bank in an MMO), can you leave it lying around somewhere, or in a chest ? Or do you have to carry it around all the time ?

Weight only counts for items directly equipped to your character, anything in your bag is weightless. And yeah, you can stuff all your extraneous items in your bottomless box when you're resting at a bonfire.

Weight itself slows down how fast you move, and the speed and distance of your roll. DS2 is more forgiving of this than DS1, and you're plenty speedy up til about 60% of your max weight equip. I think the formula is that if you're only using 15% of your max weight, you're as fast as you can get. 15%-50% is plenty fast, though not as, and 50%-75% you're still quick enough to survive, but you're not exactly agile, either.

[Gryzemuis]

So my questions: is there any harm in using all my souls to level up asap ? Can I store stuff somewhere ?

The wiki pages are useless for beginners. The most basic questions aren't answered anywhere it seems. I got one more.

When you die, you leave a blue bulb on the ground. It contains all the souls you were carrying. Does it always contain only souls ? Or can there be more in it ? (I believe in Everquest, it contained (some of) your gear too). Suppose you die, drop a blue sphere with a 1000 souls. You revive at a bonfire, you make your way to pick up the sphere. But you die before you reach it. The first blue sphere disappears, right ? And the new sphere only contains you most recent souls. So the souls of the first sphere are all lost ? No point in trying to reach that location again (for recovery of souls), right ?

I read about the Ring of Binding. It was the only item I wanted to have at the start, and was willing to cheat by reading a guide/faq/walk-through. So I entered the tower of whatsisname. I ran past the enemies, dodged their attacks. All went well. Except I had 5 or more enemies on my tail. I saw a misty-portal. Safe ! So I entered. There was a boss, which aggroed me immediately. I died. I tried to get my souls back (all of the ones I got in Things Betwixt). No way I could enter that room, pick up my sphere at the back of the room, and get out, without dieing again. Lesson learned. I assume those souls were lost, but I don't know for sure.

[Renzatic]

So my questions: is there any harm in using all my souls to level up asap ? Can I store stuff somewhere ?

Read my ninja edit above. :P

When you die, you leave a blue bulb on the ground. It contains all the souls you were carrying. Does it always contain only souls ? Or can there be more in it ? (I believe in Everquest, it contained (some of) your gear too). Suppose you die, drop a blue sphere with a 1000 souls. You revive at a bonfire, you make your way to pick up the sphere. But you die before you reach it. The first blue sphere disappears, right ? And the new sphere only contains you most recent souls. So the souls of the first sphere are all lost ? No point in trying to reach that location again (for recovery of souls), right ?

That's pretty much it. You only drop your carried souls, and lose a bit of health as you go more hollowed. Right now, dying isn't that big of a deal for you. But when you're carrying around 300,000 souls, and you die way out in the middle of nowhere, surrounded by tough enemies, it'll sting a bit.

I read about the Ring of Binding. It was the only item I wanted to have at the start, and was willing to cheat by reading a guide/faq/walk-through. So I entered the tower of whatsisname. I ran past the enemies, dodged their attacks. All went well. Except I had 5 or more enemies on my tail. I saw a misty-portal. Safe ! So I entered. There was a boss, which aggroed me immediately. I died. I tried to get my souls back (all of the ones I got in Things Betwixt). No way I could enter that room, pick up my sphere at the back of the room, and get out, without dieing again. Lesson learned. I assume those souls were lost, but I don't know for sure.

Remember, fog walls are never indicators of safety. More often than not, there's a boss behind them.

Oh, and when you fight bosses, the fog walls block you in. The only way you can escape them is to use a Homeward Bone, or kill them.

[Phatose]

Generally, you should spend your souls on something as soon as you can. That doesn't necessarily mean leveling up - improving your equipment is a huge benefit as well. But you shouldn't sit on a big stack of souls if you can use them for something.

The reason for this is soul memory. While it won't affect the environment, other players you can summon or be invaded by is limited by the total number of souls you've ever gathered. Not spent - gathered - so if you die, and then die again before getting back to your corpse, those souls are lost forever, but they're still counted against your soul memory.

[Gryzemuis]

The game is just not fun.

It's not only the controls. It's everything. I'm sure the fantasy world is great in DS. But the rest isn't. Graphics suck, no matter how I try to tweak them. Controls suck, I bet even when I'd use a controller. (The existence of the "lock on"-button is proof). Every game mechanic sucks. No matter how much people start singing how they love this game, it could have been a 1000 times better if someone had been involved who understands how to make a game. This is not a game. It's a mess.

Game deleted.

[Renzatic]

[henke]

Well this was hilarious.

Let this thread stand as a cautionary tale of what happens when you try to play DS2 with mouse and keyboard.

[faetal]

That's pretty much exactly how I finished my first play attempt with M&KB. Didn't get as far as uninstalling it, but I sure as shit was not loading it up again until I tried with a controller.

[twisty]

Haha, that was great. On my first try I climbed up there thinking that I could safely shoot at him with a crossbow I just picked up only to receive a surprise mashing.

@Gryzemuis, each to their own. Perfectly understand that the game is not to everyone's tastes. It's a moot point anyway now as you have uninstalled it but I kind of feel that the issues you faced have more to do with your own setup than the game itself. For example, I never bothered installing any graphical mods for DS2. Unlike DS1, there are no real graphical issues prevalent in the PC version that require mods to rectify. I really like the vanilla graphics tbh; while they are not as cutting edge as some other recent titles, it still easily holds it own against other games released around the same time.

[Starker]

The fox who longed for grapes, beholds with pain
The tempting clusters were too high to gain;
Grieved in his heart he forced a careless smile,
And cried ,'They're sharp and hardly worth my while.'

[Phatose]

Now guys, don't blame the keyboard. The souls series has been driving players into homicidal rage as far back as Demon's, and nobody played that with a keyboard. The thread is probably still around if you want proof.

[Gryzemuis]

Default DS2 key for walk: Left-Alt.
Default DS2 key for Interact: Enter.
Key combination for Windows to go from full-screen to windowed-mode: Alt-Enter.

So I'm happily playing the game. And once every half hour the game suddenly goes from full-screen to windowed-mode. Takes me a few occurrences before I realize what happened. Not too bad in itself. But this is yet more proof for me that nobody, really nobody at From Software has tried to play their game with something else than a controller.
The fact that 3 months after introducing the "no double-click option", and it is still not fixed, is more proof.

I got more careful. I fought my way in Forest of the Fallen Giants through the mobs, up the tower. Used a few lifegems. Entered the next foggy door. Killed a few mobs. I noticed I had 1000+ souls. So I thought I'd go back to Majula to level up. One level up, 2 out of my stats get a 2% increase (or was it 4%). Anyway, negligible. I go back to Forest of the Fallen Giants. Guess what, all mobs have respawned !

So this game is punishing. No problem. But it turns out it is not only punishing when you fail (die), but also punishing when you succeed (clear half a wing, don't die, level up). Who comes up with this shit ?

So I fought my way a little into Forest of the Fallen Giants. I had 2 weapons break on me. I read that I could repair my weapons, if I unlock the blacksmith. Not there yet. Or rest at a bonfire (and make all mobs respawn). Closest bonfire was at the start of FotFGs. So I had to redo all those mobs again, and probably have 2 weapons break on me again. Only to end up without lifegems. Again, an example where the game is punishing you when you are successful (fighting too long without dieing breaks your weapons).

So I try to figure out what other weapons I could use. There's a few in my bags. Each weapon has what, 25 numbers associated with it ? There is online explanation, but it sucks. Poise -> explanation: "how much poise you have". 15 Years of online gaming, and I had never encountered that word before. Dictionary says it's like "balance". OK. But what stats should I go for ? Is poise important ? Is 1 poise just as useful as 1 strength ? It seems I do need to study the combat system if I don't wanna mess up my build. (I've seen threads: "You messed up your build. it's your own fault you can't kill mobs in DS2").

But that's normal, I guess. In an RPG you need to figure out how stats work. The only bad thing in DS2 is: if you do it right, it still won't matter, because all bosses will 2-shot you. You need to learn to dodge. If you do it wrong, you won't stand a chance. Oh, how fun. And the sad thing is, you can not learn this in-game, unless you spend an extra 20 hours experimenting. You have to look it up online. So much for "no hand-holding". It just means: "we are too lazy to have a proper in-game tutorial, we are too lazy to have an in-game manual, and we are too lazy to have an offline manual".

The whole design-philosophy is wrong, imho.
I've seen this discussion a zillion times in World of Warcraft. Old MMOs, like Everquest-1 were very punishing when you died. You die, you drop the gear you were wearing. If you don't pick it up, it's lost forever. Your xp will go down, and you might de-level (level--). That's supposed to be exciting. It's not. It's just an incentive to be less adventurous, do less exploration, play everything the safe way, cheese your way through things. DS2 is 10x this. Personally I don't like that style.

And then there is this paradox thing about boss-fights. If you can't beat a boss, you summon a stranger to come help you ! Weird. Suddenly the whole "this is a hard game" approach is out the window. I haven't duoed a boss. But I guess that when there are 2 players, one can kite the boss, while the other one hits him in the back. How cheesy is that ?
I rather not play with other players. So many years of WoW has learned me to avoid strangers on the Internet like the plague. I enjoy cooped (group play), if I play with friends. But with strangers ? Not even gonna try anymore. In DS2, I configured my Windows Firewall to block connections for DS2, so I always played offline.

It's a shame. I really wanted to like this game. But I'm not a masochist. Ive played enough WoW to know when a game is not fun, and you are only interested in finishing/completing it, or in the reward. I rather go play Dishonored. Or finish my 2nd run through Thief. Or play The Dark Mod. Or something boring as Eidolon.

[Gryzemuis]

Let this thread stand as a cautionary tale of what happens when you try to play DS2 with mouse and keyboard.

It's not because of trackball&joystick.
I knew I was handicapping myself a little. I took that into account.

It's the rest. From Software wanted to make a shitty game that is not fun to play, unless you do everything correct. If you make mistakes, the game is gonna be harder. That is wrong game design, imho. It's like if golf would give you a positive handicap if you were better than someone else. In WoW, pvp does this. The better players get better gear. Which makes it even harder for the worse/new players to kill the better players. Completely upside-down.

Lack of polish. Lack of a manual or in-game explanations for the RPG-part of the game. The approach "you have to play perfectly during the whole area, or you'll have to redo the whole area". That's like Donkey-Kong in the eighties: do the whole level perfectly, or you'll have to start all over. I didn't like that back then, and I still don't like it.

Ever seen this ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lZ_WIlQmMI
It's a video-game.
It's a hard video-game.
The guy who is playing it, and beating that boss, is enjoying himself.
He got mad skillz.

I wouldn't touch that game with a 3-meter pole, even if someone paid me to do it.

====
Thanks everyone for trying to explain stuff to me. Especially Renzatic. Much appreciated.
Sorry it didn't work out.

[Renzatic]

Haha, that was great. On my first try I climbed up there thinking that I could safely shoot at him with a crossbow I just picked up only to receive a surprise mashing.

I didn't even know he could jump up there. :P

Gryz: what you're going through is pretty much what everyone goes through. And I mean everyone. Even Zero Punctuation guy, who now apparently loves the series (and he hates everything at all times). Like when I first played DS, I didn't know what the hell was going on. I just winged it, made a bad character, died a bunch of times, got to this one certain point that everyone gives up at, and gave up. It took me a couple of months to pick it up again, and when I did...well hell, I was tearing through stuff. It wasn't just because I knew what to expect, but mostly because I knew how to approach things. I had developed a strategy.

And that's the one thing you need to keep in mind about DS. You keep comparing it to WoW, which follows the usual "I need to be this level with these stats and this weapon to be able to kill this boss" RPG mechanic. DS isn't so rigid. It's more about knowing how to approach situations, using your environments to your advantage, and knowing your enemies. Your stats are only there to give you a boost for that tiny bit of extra edge you might need, or to equip the gear you want to be able to equip, but in the end, it all comes down to skill and strategy.

There'll come a point when everything clicks, and you end up tearing through crap that would've given you endless amounts of grief not even a couple hours ago. Don't worry about grinding for experience points. Get actual experience.

edit: the game doesn't require you to play perfectly, just know what you're doing. I've gone hours upon hours in the game without once dying, exploring areas I've never been to before. It's never risk free, which is one of the things that makes the game so interesting for so many people. But it's never impossible or unfair, either.

[Starker]

I had a good time the first time, actually. Started with Demon's Souls, played a few hours and liked what I saw enough to pick up Dark Souls as soon as it hit PC. But in all fairness it must be noted that I'm a very cautious and patient player by nature.

It did take me a while to realise that it's the player skill that matters the most, though. It's less of an RPG and more of a metroidvania game.

[henke]

what you're going through is pretty much what everyone goes through.

Yup. 6 out of my first 9 hours in Dark Souls I spent smashing my head against the wall that is the Taurus Demon bossfight. I'm sure I made one or two posts here about how terrible this goddamn game is and how clearly everyone saying it's great is some kind of liar and it's not even a game its more like an SANITY TEST and the only way you pass the test is when you SMASH THE GAME DISC INTO A MILLION FUCKING PIECES

Luckily I made it past that initial hump and ended up greatly enjoying my next 160 hours with the game because I was CRAZY THE WHOLE TIME! *DUN DUN DUUUUUUUNNNNN*

[Renzatic]

Dark Souls taught me how to manage my RRRAAAAGGGEEEEEEE!

[faetal]

First time I got to the god damned mother fucking Capra Demon, I hurled my controller on the floor and swore I'd never pick it up again. Then I read a little bit of some FAQs (just enough to help me figure out why I was going wrong) and then dove back in with a properly built character and POW. It's now one of my top 5 games.

[Gryzemuis]

Another question: if you attach a game-controller (gamepad) *and* a mouse *and* a keyboard, can you use all of those at the same time to control your character and move through the menus/UI ?


GTAV can do that. It's really nice. As you might recall, I play all my games with a joystick+trackball. There is free software (http://www.x360ce.com/) that allows you to make your joystick look like a xbox360 controller. I use that with GTAV. It gives me true analog movement with my joystick. (Which is kinda necessary when steering a car in that game). I also use it in The Witcher 3. Really nice.

So I would like to use my joystick, looking like a gamepad, for movement in DS, and maybe abilities. But I do also want to use my mouse (trackball actually) for mouselook. And my mouse-buttons. So what does DS do ? Does it let you chose between gamepad or mouse+keyboard, but you can pick only one ? Or can you use both at the same time ? And what about DS2 ?



(I ran out of games. I got myself a job a few months ago, which eats a lot of my time. But I'd like to spend a few hours per week (or month) playing a good single-player game. I played The Witness during the last month. I don't want to continue with GTAV or buy FO4 until I have a new videocard. gtx1080 will be out in June, probably. I need something to play once in a while during the next 3 months. I will not play any MMOs (and certainly not WoW). I'm done with TW3. Played Ethan Carter, Old City Leviathan, Soma, Dying Light last year. I got the Dishonored expansions left, but for some reason I don't feel like playing them. Dark Souls might be the best option).

[MrDuck]

I dunno about you, Renz, but I've loved the Souls games (and Bloodborne) since day 1. Fun, punishing, times. :3

The closest I've gone as for raging in any of these games was the infamous Capra Demon from DS, but nowadays he's my bitch.

Still believe, though many will disagree, and I respect that, that DS 2 is slightly unbalanced compared to the other games in the series, but that's just my opinion. It lacked the Master's polish. Which is why I cannot wait for DS 3!

Though I'd wish Hidetaka would give Bloodborne a sequel....I really enjoyed it. :'(

And playing with a gamepad is soooo comfortable. <3

[Renzatic]

GTAV can do that. It's really nice. As you might recall, I play all my games with a joystick+trackball. There is free software (http://www.x360ce.com/) that allows you to make your joystick look like a xbox360 controller. I use that with GTAV. It gives me true analog movement with my joystick. (Which is kinda necessary when steering a car in that game). I also use it in The Witcher 3. Really nice.

Have you thought about getting a Steam controller? It takes a bit to get used to, but it's a lot like using a trackball once you get the feel for it.

I dunno about you, Renz, but I've loved the Souls games (and Bloodborne) since day 1. Fun, punishing, times. :3

Oh, I loved Dark Souls from the first moment I fired it up. Though admittedly, that love has been strained on occasion (look at you, Fume Knight, hate you so much).