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Thread: T2 FM. Bad Venture - Old version (Released 12/25/14)

  1. #101
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2005
    Location: Hitchin, Hertfordshire, UK
    On expert, I only need the loot objective (well short, only have 3,445 at present) and to hire a room at the inn. I have an empty jar. How do I get the spider which is presumably supposed to go in it?

  2. #102
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2002
    Location: Third planet from the Sun
    Marbrien: saw one at the inn

  3. #103
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: cesspool
    Quote Originally Posted by zajazd View Post
    This thread speaks for itself. Instead of enjoying this stunning fan mission people are getting stuck, annoyed and wasting their time.
    Haven't played this yet, but I applaud the author if that's the case. Many people tend to seek help upon slightest difficulty. Usually, Thief FMs are quite easy and obvious, especaially after such long term of experience.

    getting stuck = not fun.
    Fun for me, I like to be puzzled about how to get somewhere/something for hours

  4. #104
    Clearinghouse
    Registered: Aug 2002
    Location: Siberia, Russia
    Quote Originally Posted by 242 View Post
    Fun for me, I like to be puzzled about how to get somewhere/something for hours
    +1.

  5. #105
    Master Builder 2018
    Registered: Jul 2008
    +1

    Soul Tear, this is a stunningly beautiful mission. I've only just started but i can't believe how amazing this looks. Well done!

  6. #106
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2005
    Location: in here
    Quote Originally Posted by Marbrien View Post
    On expert, I only need the loot objective (well short, only have 3,445 at present) and to hire a room at the inn. I have an empty jar. How do I get the spider which is presumably supposed to go in it?
    Check carefully the inn second floor under the pot at the corner. Use the jar on the spider

    If you entered from the sewers check the front door entrance for loot or the opposite according to the path you took

  7. #107
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2012
    Location: Moscow, Russia
    Quote Originally Posted by mcd View Post
    Stuck again......

    spoiler:
    In Theorens room, found notes and key and secret room, not sure where to go next. Room door is unpickable and there seems no way back if you jump back out of the window.
    Feeling a bit dumb on this FM
    You need to carefully read all readables. Although I did not wrote English texts and I can not test them, but Russian texts are friends with the logic.
    My mission requires thoughtful immersion, it is not action/shooter.

  8. #108
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2012
    Location: Moscow, Russia
    Quote Originally Posted by Marbrien View Post
    The way I got out this area was to climb a slanting plank near the smoking hole in the ground, mantle onto the small balcony at the top of that plank, then drop from the balcony rail onto the ground beside the smoking hole. A gate openable from that side would have been kinder.
    You can go back the same way as you came in the blue room.
    In any case, not necessarily to climb onto the balcony, you can break planks with your sword and jump through the hole.

  9. #109
    I need a gentle nudge, if someone can help. I'm trying not to read any of the spoiler text in this thread.

    I've been to all of the common areas of the map. I have about a dozen locked doors, some pickable, some not - I assume I need to find a third lockpick at some point. I've been to the Police Station, Lady Adaline's, the Tavern, and The Inn. I haven't been able to get inside either the stable, the Mechanic's store, or the Pawn Shop.

    In my inventory, I have cash, a crowbar, a spare arrow, and a jar with a spider. For keys, I only have Blocked District and Clean & Cozy. The only frobbable item I've found is the sewer grate in the first part of the town.

    What's next?

  10. #110
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2012
    Location: Moscow, Russia
    trudnicki, Marbrien
    You can find a lot of loot in the stable, the wine cellar (Lady Adaline's area) and the Entrance Tower.
    In addition, check out a couple of windows in the NW house of the map.
    And look around everywhere, many coins can be found in the most unlikely places.
    Last edited by Soul Tear; 28th Dec 2014 at 12:24.

  11. #111
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2001
    Quote Originally Posted by 242 View Post
    Haven't played this yet, but I applaud the author if that's the case. Many people tend to seek help upon slightest difficulty. Usually, Thief FMs are quite easy and obvious, especaially after such long term of experience.



    Fun for me, I like to be puzzled about how to get somewhere/something for hours
    Here it's actually quite different: items placed where you can get stuck or have difficulty to get to, prolonged lockpicking times just to make it longer, some ledges can be mantled, some not, without any reason coming to mind. Also basic mistakes like inconsistent doors with handle down or straight that are unfrobable/unpickable. I even saw a door with long lockpicking time and then requiring a third lockpick. From player standpoint that was ridiculous. All of these point to lack of proper gameplay testing, and cheap sense of high difficulty vs player progress. It's like thinking about games from the 80s. Definitely it's not Dark Souls-high-difficulty-thinking. And, since mission has performance problems on Intel i7 3,2 GHz with 16 gigs of ram, it's also poorly optimized. Sure it looks beautiful, but the price is too high IMO, as the feeling of novelty wears out quickly. I know Soul Tear probably aimed for Christmas, but I'll gladly wait for a proper, later release.

  12. #112
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2012
    Location: Moscow, Russia
    Quote Originally Posted by Brethren View Post
    I need a gentle nudge, if someone can help. I'm trying not to read any of the spoiler text in this thread.

    I've been to all of the common areas of the map. I have about a dozen locked doors, some pickable, some not - I assume I need to find a third lockpick at some point. I've been to the Police Station, Lady Adaline's, the Tavern, and The Inn. I haven't been able to get inside either the stable, the Mechanic's store, or the Pawn Shop.

    In my inventory, I have cash, a crowbar, a spare arrow, and a jar with a spider. For keys, I only have Blocked District and Clean & Cozy. The only frobbable item I've found is the sewer grate in the first part of the town.

    What's next?

    First you need to walk around the house of science. Check your objectives.
    Second your need to find Inspector Thereon to learn about the details of the incident

  13. #113
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2012
    Location: Moscow, Russia
    Quote Originally Posted by Judith View Post
    And, since mission has performance problems on Intel i7 3,2 GHz with 16 gigs of ram, it's also poorly optimized. Sure it looks beautiful, but the price is too high IMO, as the feeling of novelty wears out quickly. I know Soul Tear probably aimed for Christmas, but I'll gladly wait for a proper, later release.
    NewDark is not optimized, my friend.
    I'm not sure that I would be to prepare the later release just to please you. I do not have much time and I'm alone of my developers team. I'll do what I see fit.
    If because of this I will lose 10-15% of the players - so be it.
    I want to release 10 missions of campaign and not spend all my life on the door handles and other mumbo-jumbo things.

  14. #114
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2014
    Location: Europe
    This is an amazing mission, I'm loving the challenging aspects of it, its clever gameplay and the visuals are fantastic of course. I don't think it's a bad idea at all to push NewDark this far when there's technology that can easily handle it. It's running very smoothly for me, no crashes either.

    So thank you Soul Tear, keep Dromeding!

  15. #115
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2002
    Location: Third planet from the Sun
    Stuck. How to get to the stables tried door but cant pick the lock fully tried the high delivery door but these are not frobable
    wine cellar ?? near lady A ?? You mean the secret area with camera and the guard ?? Entrance tower there is one door that to pick which i need 3rd lockpick area with archer carying pick able knife can it be picked with crowbar ?? Another question where can i find Theoren. Last should i try to use crowbar on doors ??

  16. #116
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2002
    Location: Third planet from the Sun
    Ok, so now i have been to the room with floating stones at the tavern no Theoren there
    been in stables there is box with ropes which highlights no idea what to do with that ?? I am still short on loot 4905/5000. No idea what to do with spider in the jar and no idea what to do next
    I AM DESPERADO but i was counting to be RICH DESPERADO

    how many Qs can you get in 1 posting ?....
    Thx fortuni.... a lot more
    I can see You are in prison cell. Need any help getting out ?? ... 3rd lockpick i presume will be appreciated
    Last edited by trudnicki; 28th Dec 2014 at 17:24.

  17. #117
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2001
    Quote Originally Posted by Soul Tear View Post
    NewDark is not optimized, my friend.
    I'm not sure that I would be to prepare the later release just to please you. I do not have much time and I'm alone of my developers team. I'll do what I see fit.
    If because of this I will lose 10-15% of the players - so be it.
    I want to release 10 missions of campaign and not spend all my life on the door handles and other mumbo-jumbo things.
    It's not about NewDark being unoptimized, it's your mission that exceeds capabilities of the engine. Large distance, massive transparency and hi-res textures have to be used in moderation not only in NewDark, in any modern engine as well. If you'd build a map all with 4096 textures and 20k polygon models in Unreal Engine, CryEngine or IDTech5, the result will be similar. And this is what you just did. It's not only about my system. Your mission will be running slow on any PC, no matter how powerful, since the old engine performance is scalable only to a certain point. It's not about losing 15% of players. You won't get more than 15% of players you could have, both to inconsistent design and poor performance.

  18. #118
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2002
    Location: Third planet from the Sun
    Once again Thank You fortuni
    will check that all tomorrow going to sleep

  19. #119
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2014
    Location: Poland
    Quote Originally Posted by Judith View Post
    items placed where you can get stuck or have difficulty to get to, prolonged lockpicking times just to make it longer, some ledges can be mantled, some not, without any reason coming to mind. Also basic mistakes like inconsistent doors with handle down or straight that are unfrobable/unpickable. I even saw a door with long lockpicking time and then requiring a third lockpick. From player standpoint that was ridiculous. All of these point to lack of proper gameplay testing, and cheap sense of high difficulty vs player progress. It's like thinking about games from the 80s. Definitely it's not Dark Souls-high-difficulty-thinking.And, since mission has performance problems on Intel i7 3,2 GHz with 16 gigs of ram, it's also poorly optimized. Sure it looks beautiful, but the price is too high IMO, as the feeling of novelty wears out quickly. I know Soul Tear probably aimed for Christmas, but I'll gladly wait for a proper, later release.
    This is "adventure games thinking", so this is a great thinking.

    Bugs are in 99% Fms, and in 100% big FMs like this. Performance is not bad watching the amount of object, hd textures and other stuff.

  20. #120
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2009
    Hi Kurhan,Judith and Trudnicki.Small word eh?

    I am agreeing with Judith.This fanmission has big potential but for me potential is wasted because mission is poorly optimised.Better make less pretty FM with better framerate.Eyecandy is not everything.Also this is clearly adventure type of FM.....but puzzles are too obscure and confusing.Also mission has lot of bugs.After visiting Theoren room some archer guards starting to shoot me unprovoked.
    I wanted to like this mission but i can.No disrespect to You SoulTear,You have put lot of work to this.

  21. #121
    Wow, I never thought I would see the day when a T2 FM would grind my computer to a halt while loading, playing AND quitting. Are the AIs constantly moving or something? Or is it all those objects? Granted, my rig is older, but HL2 EP2 ran smooth as butter on maximum settings--it even ran the Crysis demo at a decent fps. Weird and a shame too, since there are so many nice touches throughout. I'm sure it plays great when it runs properly.

  22. #122
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2011
    Quote Originally Posted by 242 View Post
    Haven't played this yet, but I applaud the author if that's the case. Many people tend to seek help upon slightest difficulty. Usually, Thief FMs are quite easy and obvious, especaially after such long term of experience.

    Fun for me, I like to be puzzled about how to get somewhere/something for hours
    High difficulty and poor design are two different things. It's the reason why the adventure genre kind of died or went underground. You can't give the player a huge area with a lot of objects and no hints, and inventory items that the payer has no idea where and how to use - that is bad game design. Most people don't have the time and patience to go back and forth gadzillion times. I bow my head to the talents in level design of this FM author but otherwise this FM is a mess.

  23. #123
    I think Judith may be being a bit harsh, but I understand what they are trying to say and there's some truth there. I remember Alexius (author of the now abandoned Hammerite Imperium) used to complain that he couldn't finish any of the missions for his project because he kept running into all of Dromed's limitations (this was pre-New Dark). I couldn't help but think - if you know what Dromed's limitations are, then why are you trying to build missions that surpass them? Seemed like it should be common sense that you would only build within the technical capabilities of what the engine can do.

    No offense is meant, ST, your mission is beautiful and I'm enjoying it quite a bit. But I just upgraded my PC about a year ago (it's an i7 with 16 GB RAM, and a Radeon 7970), and there are some sections of the mission that drop into the 20s for fps. Overall the mission runs great for me, but I can't imagine that a PC more than 3-4 years old can run it very smooth. The Thief community isn't all that big anymore, so it seems a shame to eliminate maybe 50% of your potential players. Might be interesting to do a poll sometime to see what the average PC specs are for FM players that are still active in the community, so authors would have a baseline to work off of.

  24. #124
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2001
    Sorry if I sounded harsh Brethren, I meant more or less what you said. ST's response sounded a bit like "I'm an artist and can't be bothered with such earthly (performance) concerns". I guess that might be a language problem. Sure the mission is beautiful, and it would be a waste if there was no update.
    Last edited by Judith; 29th Dec 2014 at 03:29.

  25. #125
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2012
    In defense of Soul Tear, I personally applaud his ambition. He clearly set out to make one of the hardest, most original, most obscure and eye-wateringly good looking missions that he could imagine and in all of these i believe he has succeeded. His errors are however down to just 2 faults: Inexperience and Over ambition, both of which are common traits among the youth

    Inexperience: KoI is only Soul Tears second mission, in Thieving terms he is still a novice, with a lot yet to learn, ST made this mission pushing Newdark to its limit on his relatively powerful computer, and so did not realise how poor the fps was until he got to beta testing stage, by then he had committed a huge amount of time and effort into making this mission, and had every intention of releasing it as is, and if it had not been for Xorak coming to the rescue things would have been even worse, but maybe some other DromEd boffin could take another look and see if there is further improvements are available ?

    Over Ambition: there are over 1250 missions out there, the vast majority are 'safe' in their gameplay approach following unwritten but standard procedures, ST wished to play around with novel ideas, such as 'how do you actually use a crowbar in real life' you don't just touch a crow bar on a piece of wood to pull it away from whatever, you need to wiggle it around, get some leverage....
    In real life if you walk down a street no 2 door handles look the same, and i bet you not all of them would be pickable either, who said all door locks must act in the same way, which rule book did that come out of ? I'm not attacking you Judith, all I am saying is I like the idea of change and alternatives from the usual. But maybe ST has tried to put TOO many new and novel ideas into just one mission ( anyone worked out what to do with the 'spare arrows' yet ?) and so has compounded peoples frustration...1 or 2 new ideas good, 6-8 new ideas....trouble.

    ps most if not all the bugs and issues pointed out in the above posts were raised by the testers

    Soul Tear has every potential to become one of the Great authors of the Thieving world, his ambition and vision are without doubt, so here's hoping that this mission will have been a big learning curve, but the biggest lesson, ST you must bring in more than 1 DromEr to beta test your future missions and give beta testing a lot longer than you did on this mission, as i suspect you will always learn more in beta testing than you ever can do on your own whilst building a mission
    Last edited by fortuni; 29th Dec 2014 at 03:43.

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