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Thread: T2 FM. Bad Venture - Old version (Released 12/25/14)

  1. #126
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2001
    I don't feel attacked, Fortuni, I mostly agree with your points

    The problem is, as usual, the communication. As in your example: the way use of crowbar was communicated to the players was wrong, at least in my case there were no sounds of wood planks giving way or something like that. There was no feedback for me that I'm going in the right direction, I had to read it on the forums. Same goes for doors. It might sound harsh again, but nobody really cares how real life looks like in games, translated 1:1. The more important thing is: how can you use game systems to communicate with the player, make him learn something, then give him a challenge and some fun stuff to do. The reason behind door handles, or doors without door handles, color-coded objects and many other things is to show players what they can or can't do, using only visual means. Discovering game or world rules this way is satisfying, and in some cases almost subconscious (e.g. the "red barrels rule" in shooters). This way you avoid frustrating trial and error style gameplay.

    There are tons of stuff to read on the web on the subject matter, also a few ex-LGS/Ion Storm employees posted some great keynotes on designing stealth gameplay – IMO this is a must-read for all FM authors. I'm trying to find proper links, but I have offline versions as well. I can put it in dropbox, if anyone's interested
    Last edited by Judith; 29th Dec 2014 at 04:05.

  2. #127
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2005
    Location: Hitchin, Hertfordshire, UK
    I'd appreciate a fairly direct steer on how to get into the wine cellar in Lady A's area. Thanks.

  3. #128
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2014
    Location: Poland
    Quote Originally Posted by zajazd View Post
    High difficulty and poor design are two different things. It's the reason why the adventure genre kind of died or went underground. You can't give the player a huge area with a lot of objects and no hints, and inventory items that the payer has no idea where and how to use - that is bad game design. Most people don't have the time and patience to go back and forth gadzillion times. I bow my head to the talents in level design of this FM author but otherwise this FM is a mess.
    What actual casual, brainless easy games do to you, and not only with you looking at these posts above ? This mission is not too hard, maybe only "finding Thereon" is a bit challenge, and all loot of course but this is optional.


    Sorry for naming mission but I prefer 30 fps with a big amount of object and other stuff than for example 60fps in Kingsbridge where is just nearly empty rooms and spaces.


    E : Hi Zeratul , moderators at thief-forum sleeps again.
    Last edited by Kurhhan; 29th Dec 2014 at 06:46.

  4. #129
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2002
    Location: Third planet from the Sun
    Ok how do i find Theoren spoil me plz I found some note in his room, that he found a bloody key and he saw something at the inn attic but i cant access inn attic

  5. #130
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2014
    Location: Poland
    Quote Originally Posted by trudnicki View Post
    Ok how do i find Theoren spoil me plz I found some note in his room, that he found a bloody key and he saw something at the inn attic but i cant access inn attic
    Inspect a big stone in Theoren room.

  6. #131
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2002
    Location: Third planet from the Sun
    Quote Originally Posted by Marbrien View Post
    I'd appreciate a fairly direct steer on how to get into the wine cellar in Lady A's area. Thanks.
    Marbrien

    have U found a secret area near collector tower

    direct spoiler ??

  7. #132
    Member
    Registered: May 2009
    Location: Germany
    OK, 11 hours into the mission and finally satisfied with my loot and bonuses.
    I ended up with
    6830 loot
    11 secrets
    Achievements: Desperado, Hammerite, Pioneer, Collector, Agent

    That was quite a tough ride!

    I really enjoyed it and finding the required stuff in order to complete the mission was not too hard.
    (I found about 5K loot after about 4 or 5 hours, all the rest I found after intensive search and some technical assistance - namely TTLL.
    However I would not have gotten any of the achievements without glimpsing at the goals-file.)
    Some loot was really hidden in a devilish manner, like the goblet in a window and a secret wine-bottle behind.

    Unfortunately some things were not so nice, such as the overly confusing semi-lockpickable doors, doors without any key.
    Is there a key to the rooms in the sewer and potentially to the dead keeper ?
    And the fact that you start with just 1 rope arrow on Expert and no clue in which wooden beam the arrow would either stick or simply break.
    Well, finally I found a way to produce a bunch of more rope arrows, but that option was hidden in one of the hardest parts of the map.

    Congrats on this map! Lovely!

    @Soul Tear:
    I noticed a couple of truncated pages in several books. Both in the english version, as well as in the german one.
    Would you mind if I provide the corrected texts here?
    People could pick it up and you might include it in an updated version later.

  8. #133
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2005
    Location: Hitchin, Hertfordshire, UK
    Quote Originally Posted by trudnicki View Post
    Marbrien

    have U found a secret area near collector tower

    direct spoiler ??
    Yes thanks, I hadn't noticed that grate first time round. Now, is there any way to turn off that security camera (it is impervious to a fire arrow)?

  9. #134
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2012
    Location: Moscow, Russia
    Quote Originally Posted by Brethren View Post
    I think Judith may be being a bit harsh, but I understand what they are trying to say and there's some truth there. I remember Alexius (author of the now abandoned Hammerite Imperium) used to complain that he couldn't finish any of the missions for his project because he kept running into all of Dromed's limitations (this was pre-New Dark). I couldn't help but think - if you know what Dromed's limitations are, then why are you trying to build missions that surpass them? Seemed like it should be common sense that you would only build within the technical capabilities of what the engine can do.

    No offense is meant, ST, your mission is beautiful and I'm enjoying it quite a bit. But I just upgraded my PC about a year ago (it's an i7 with 16 GB RAM, and a Radeon 7970), and there are some sections of the mission that drop into the 20s for fps. Overall the mission runs great for me, but I can't imagine that a PC more than 3-4 years old can run it very smooth. The Thief community isn't all that big anymore, so it seems a shame to eliminate maybe 50% of your potential players. Might be interesting to do a poll sometime to see what the average PC specs are for FM players that are still active in the community, so authors would have a baseline to work off of.

    The fact that I had no idea what might be the consequences. I'll launch a full optimization, just to check for errors, but I did not check my mission until the betatesting. When everything was done, I realized that things are not what I imagined them. I was blinded by the possibilities of NewDark .

    Nevertheless, there is no turning back. The matter is done.
    The choice is this: if the mission would not exist - 0% of the players would be able to play; or the mission looks like for what it is, and (at worst) 50% of the players would be able to play. The question: Which is better to 0 or 50?

    I'm sorry that not everyone could play. It's just concatenation of circumstances. Maybe I can do the playable mission for everyone, but it will look a lot worse, and it is not the priority project, the main thing for me - the second part.

    I got some advices from Xorak, but I doubt that it will give us a significant increase in performance.
    I do not want to build a primitive FM, this is not interesting for me. And I can not buy new PC for everyone . Alternative?

  10. #135
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2012
    Location: Moscow, Russia
    Quote Originally Posted by Judith View Post
    Sorry if I sounded harsh Brethren, I meant more or less what you said. ST's response sounded a bit like "I'm an artist and can't be bothered with such earthly (performance) concerns". I guess that might be a language problem. Sure the mission is beautiful, and it would be a waste if there was no update.
    Over time, this project will improve, but so far I have no any experience, just observation and intuition.
    In addition, not all betatesters worked well.

  11. #136
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2012
    Location: Moscow, Russia
    Quote Originally Posted by Judith View Post
    As in your example: the way use of crowbar was communicated to the players was wrong, at least in my case there were no sounds of wood planks giving way or something like that. There was no feedback for me that I'm going in the right direction, I had to read it on the forums.
    Readme:


    DIFFICULTY

    In this mission, I'm trying to avoid some stereotypes you might find in the old FMs. In particular,
    I'm using a different intensity values of the Receptor/Source settings than you probably got used
    of (I mean the situation when you'll have to use an inventory item on the outside item).

    Same goes for doors. It might sound harsh again, but nobody really cares how real life looks like in games, translated 1:1. The more important thing is: how can you use game systems to communicate with the player, make him learn something, then give him a challenge and some fun stuff to do. The reason behind door handles, or doors without door handles, color-coded objects and many other things is to show players what they can or can't do, using only visual means. Discovering game or world rules this way is satisfying, and in some cases almost subconscious (e.g. the "red barrels rule" in shooters). This way you avoid frustrating trial and error style gameplay.
    You have convinced me. Most likely it was an exploration. If many players do not like it, I do not mind to change these doors.

  12. #137
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2012
    Location: Moscow, Russia
    First post updated. Added lootlist. Thanks to Fortuni.

  13. #138
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2001
    Quote Originally Posted by Soul Tear View Post
    Over time, this project will improve, but so far I have no any experience, just observation and intuition.
    In addition, not all betatesters worked well.
    You did great then. If DromEd doesn't have any performance checking tools, seek advice in T2 Editors Guild. Maybe someone already wrote guidelines or a tutorial, that would be really useful. Also it would be great if DromEders had some tools to measure performance (in DromEd or external). For example T3Ed, as awful as it can be sometimes, it has a very useful metric in perspective viewport called "Lights that touch too many objects". It shows lights colored from green to red, and if anything is red you can be sure you'll see a framerate drop. Even a 5 GHz CPU won't help, as this seems to be engine, not hardware limitation.

    Anyway, since your PC is pretty decent, you can assume that any major FPS drop on your end (more than 5-8 frames) is something possibly to worry about. 50 FPS in your case is alright, but it may be 10 FPS for others.

  14. #139
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2012
    Location: Moscow, Russia
    Quote Originally Posted by gnartsch View Post

    @Soul Tear:
    I noticed a couple of truncated pages in several books. Both in the english version, as well as in the german one.
    Would you mind if I provide the corrected texts here?
    People could pick it up and you might include it in an updated version later.
    Of course

  15. #140
    Member
    Registered: May 2005
    Location: France
    Quote Originally Posted by Kurhhan View Post
    Sorry for naming mission but I prefer 30 fps with a big amount of object and other stuff than for example 60fps in Kingsbridge where is just nearly empty rooms and spaces.
    There certainly are some Thief missions that are not detailed and contain lots of empty to nearly empty rooms, but- from what I've played- Kingsbridge isn't one of them.

    Although the mission runs well enough for me, in general I'd prefer play-ability over visuals any day. Changing things up from the standard fare is great (even encouraged!) but generally an authors note or clear hint is preferred if there's a non-obvious change like with the crowbar in this mission. In Thief generally, when you use an object with another object, it either works the first time or will never work, so most of the confusion is totally understandable. As I said, changing this isn't a problem at all, but there should be a hint of some kind or some sort of authors note in the readme telling users how to use the crowbar. Though there was a note about a change when using objects, a more clear hint would have been better in my opinion.

    In real life, sometimes I have to try my key more than once to unlock my front door. Should I go ahead and make a Thief mission where keys may or may not work the first time you try them?

    This mission is great so far, by the way. Everything looks great. It's tough, but that's not a bad thing.
    Last edited by Random_Taffer; 29th Dec 2014 at 10:47.

  16. #141
    Member
    Registered: May 2009
    Location: Germany
    Corrected texts (english and german)
    Quote Originally Posted by Soul Tear View Post
    Of course
    Ok, thanks!
    Here they are. I did not change any wording, in case you wonder.
    All I did was correcting the formatting so that each and every page is displayed properly and no information is chopped off.

    Simply extract the file (english or german version) within the folder where the mission is installed.

    English:
    KoI_BadVenture_1_1_EN-patch.zip

    German:
    KoI_BadVenture_1_1_DE-patch.zip
    A note on the german version:
    The file KoI_BadVenture_DE.zip (contained in the original mission ZIP) contains the complete german translation.
    Since my patch fixes only a subset, the original german translation needs to be extracted first!
    Also: the original version contains a folder named snd/Garrett which needs to be renamed to snd/GarretTG.
    Otherwise you will hear Garrett's voice in english instead of german.

  17. #142
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2012
    Quote Originally Posted by gnartsch View Post
    Corrected texts (english and german)
    .
    don't understand how that happened, i checked the English text and they worked fine on the final beta.............
    but i have not checked the final release, hoping ST did not mix up the wrong 'books', as for German texts, didn't even look at those as i do not speak the language so thanks for that

  18. #143
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2002
    Location: Third planet from the Sun
    Quote Originally Posted by Marbrien View Post
    Yes thanks, I hadn't noticed that grate first time round. Now, is there any way to turn off that security camera (it is impervious to a fire arrow)?
    Marbrien
    If i where You I will try something more sublime do not destroy camera it is better to "disable" the guard it requires good timing or some equipment in this case it is something You can throw

  19. #144
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2002
    Location: Third planet from the Sun
    I am at the gate to the forest been on the wall but i cannot get behind the metal gate or into the shed what to do again running in circles

  20. #145
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2011
    Location: ���&#5671
    Quote Originally Posted by trudnicki View Post
    I am at the gate to the forest been on the wall but i cannot get behind the metal gate or into the shed what to do again running in circles
    Shoot a rope arrow into the roof, and use your crowbar on the planks

  21. #146
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2002
    Location: Third planet from the Sun
    Ok that is funny question i have never ever asked this hehehe. How can i finish this fm got the key how to rent a room at inn ??
    Still no idea what to do with this jar with spider
    Last edited by trudnicki; 29th Dec 2014 at 14:38.

  22. #147
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Deep in the Heart of Texas!
    Please can someone tell me where to use the attic key been all over the Inn but can not find how to get into the attic the doors do not highlight??

  23. #148
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2002
    Location: Third planet from the Sun
    Quote Originally Posted by pwl View Post
    Please can someone tell me where to use the attic key been all over the Inn but can not find how to get into the attic the doors do not highlight??
    You are probably looking for the use of that key at the inn right ?? wrong !! try tavern

  24. #149
    I'm trying to avoid spoilers, but... Is it true that there is no third lockpick? And that these doors are simply not openable? If so, I may have a little something to say about that.

  25. #150
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2002
    Location: Third planet from the Sun
    Quote Originally Posted by Brethren View Post
    I'm trying to avoid spoilers, but... Is it true that there is no third lockpick? And that these doors are simply not openable? If so, I may have a little something to say about that.
    Metallica Sad but True

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