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Thread: 10 years later, how do you feel about Thief 2X?

  1. #26
    New Member
    Registered: Dec 2014
    Maybe some of you won't understand why, but for me, T2X is thief 3! It ties with TMA and I like both of them much more than thief gold.
    I don't know why but somehow I don't like missions with surreal stuff in it and the original thief had lots of those. Thieves guild and song of the caverns are in my opinion the best TG OMs.

    That's the reason why I love T2X so much - it is more like you're playing in a steampunk pirate age. The brothel, the grand motel, ye olde smugglers cave.. fantastic!

    I don't think the story is too bad - a betrayed woman inflicting a war between the cruel smugglers and the goofy mechanists? Awesome

    THY WORDS ARE UNTRUE, HEATHEN!

    and not to forget the scene in the kitchen were one guard is trying to give the other one a burrick sausage

  2. #27
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2015
    Whoa, looks like I missed that kitchen scene (or don't remember it clearly). Link please?

  3. #28
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    it's an apple sausage, actually.

  4. #29
    Member
    Registered: May 2011
    Quote Originally Posted by Dev_Anj View Post
    Whoa, looks like I missed that kitchen scene (or don't remember it clearly). Link please?
    http://youtu.be/dsskwYI76fs?t=14m24s

  5. #30
    ZylonBane
    Registered: Sep 2000
    Location: ZylonBane
    The main things I remember about T2X:

    Its version of Thief's non-lethal blackjack was a skull-cracking claw hammer.

    The bad guy is named Malak. Because "mal" means "bad". Nudge-nudge wink-wink. See also: Mausoleous.

  6. #31
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    The main thing I remember was ZB was not a fan of the claw hammer and never missed a chance to question it.

    Aside from that... What I remember was its best pros and its worst cons had the same origins, which was that it was a democratic project for the fans, of the fans, by the fans. The other big campaign projects, Hammerite Imperium and Cosas, had great artistic visions, but work on them dripped to a stop and they could never get finished, and I think that's because they were pushing just the vision of a few people, so could never get all the help they needed.

    T2X got finished, and still met its ambition to be a full campaign. I think it could only have done that being a democratic model. T2X was also able to have a lot of new bells and whistles, like all new AI models and weapons that other campaigns couldn't even get into, again because of the fan contributions. But also because of that, T2X had a lower barrier of entry for things getting contributed, so things got in that didn't necessarily fit with the whole, like inconsistent art direction, or the whole was more patchwork. But all in all, I think it was worth it. T2X had some flaws, but it was also much more ambitious than anything that came before, and represented the work of a lot of different people that cared a lot about the game.

    So I think it deserves its recognition, although there are a lot of things I would want changed if I were doing it, but then I recognize if it were me doing it, it probably wouldn't have gotten made at all.

  7. #32
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2014
    It may be raw and lack the polish of a professionally produced title, but like all good punk rock it more than makes up for it in personality.

  8. #33
    BANNED
    Registered: Nov 2006
    It had some varying quality in level design and half of the voice acting was gratingly bad and not in the so-bad-it's-good category like some old gaming classics such as Castlevania: Symphony of the Night, but overall it was definitely worth playing and I've went through the entire campaign 4 times over the years. The latest being last year.

    The claw hammer thing bugged me, too, by the way. I can appreciate the more "improvised" feel to it, but it also feels like you'd have a high chance of killing someone whacking them with that. I like the Dark Mod's blackjack model as a more improvised-looking tool that may not be quite as fatal. Whereas Garrett's in the series looks more like it was made by some kind of actual craftsman.

  9. #34
    It had projectile vomiting zombies that could be decapitated. That alone should earn the T2X team kudos! True, it could be uneven in places but the same could be said for sections of TMA. I was a bit annoyed with the plot--a skilled yet easily duped protagonist gets tangled in a conspiracy. That's the basic storyline of 90% of FPS games. Still, the thing got finished, played and discussed all these years later. I'd say T2X was a success.

  10. #35
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2002
    Location: Georgia
    I enjoyed the mission pack altogether It's been years since I played it, so my impression is mostly from memory...
    For one, it was hard to change my character mindset from Garrett to some girl. Then, her character was also all over the place so I couldn't even get myself into the story. There seemed to be many good ideas, but the story used too many of them and never fleshed out a solid plot. Actually, I think Thief 2 itself suffers from the same problem.
    The missions were pretty and varied. The new weapons and items were fun. But beyond all that, nothing really sticks out in my head. There have been other missions, much smaller is scope that have really had an impact on me because of their top-tier writing and design.

  11. #36
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2005
    Location: Belgium
    For me, T2X is a must install when replaying Thief Gold + Metal Age! Especially with the HD mod which makes everything look a bit prettier. The amount of work the creators put into this fan campaign is just mind-blowing. Many thanks for the people who worked on this campaign!

  12. #37
    Dóttirin klęšist oft móšur möttli
    Registered: Apr 2015
    We are currently testing the campaign. Just a couple of minor issues with NewDark, stats, etc. So this is very well done, no serious bugs.

  13. #38
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2016
    Quote Originally Posted by Unna Oertdottir View Post
    We are currently testing the campaign. Just a couple of minor issues with NewDark, stats, etc. So this is very well done, no serious bugs.
    Wait, are you bugfixing T2X?

  14. #39
    Dóttirin klęšist oft móšur möttli
    Registered: Apr 2015
    We are testing and bugfixing every mission. Current year 2005.

    https://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149716

  15. #40
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2016
    Awesome, I might be able to help with T2X. Will write fortuni a PM in a bit.

  16. #41
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2007
    Location: South Coast,England uk
    it was nice while it lasted....but I have only ever played it the once,and never felt the need to go and play it again,unlike all the other FMs...maybe it's time to revisit it,for me.

  17. #42
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2019
    Location: Poland
    I played T2X briefly in 2017, but for whatever reason i shelved it and only did replay it properly very recently, finishing literally yesterday.

    Overall this is probably one of the most elaborate and involved undertakings made by fans of any game or game series, with lots of work poured into it, as impressive today as it was in 2005, and i totally enjoyed it for the most part.

    It's definitely far from flawless though, so while the experience is still fresh in my memory i'll just do a quick rundown of what caught my attention in both positive and negative ways.

    Starting with the most obvious and immediately noticeable change, compared to the official games, as much as iconic Garrett is, i really loved the idea of having him replaced with Zaya, for at least two reasons - female protagonist is always welcome for a change, and in this particular case it allowed the authors to use more freedom while putting the plot together, since they didn't need to worry about the continuity and integrity of Garrett's story as much, in the context of possible sequels.

    The idea was great in its premise, but there's the other side to it, and it's the execution of said idea, which is where the slippery slope of flaws begins. The most annoying one to me was the voice acting for Zaya. She tends to comment on events with a very exaggerated manner, which is apparent especially during briefing cut-scenes where she sometimes dangerously closely approaches the typical soap opera territory, expressing melodramatic emotion in her lines, making it feel at least ill-fitted. I'm not sure whether it's an issue with writing, direction or the actress' lack of experience, but i'd say it's probably mix of these three. This is not to say that she should be the Master Taffer's clone and keep such stoic and snarky, cynical attitude at all times, but there was a point where i stopped for a while and the following crossed my mind:

    She keeps taffing around, fighting adversaries, knocking them out without a second thought or hesitation, never comments hysterically whenever the player decides to make her kill somebody, yet on the other hand we have these overly corny cutscenes creating a twofold and jarring emotional image of her.
    That alone, makes the whole story less believable or immersive.

    Aside of this, as my friend consciously noted, there were some gaping plot holes near the very end, when the the story was about to resolve, which i'm going to put into spoiler markings. Namely, the fact that Malak doesn't even try to kill Zaya, after she refuses to side with him when he unveils his true motives, nor does he even try to close the portal immediately, is inexcusable.

    With complaining being out of the way for now, the missions themselves, and the actual gameplay were really good and super enjoyable, with such highlights as The Grand Hotel (yay for my favourite indoor-exploration-of-a-hugeass-property theme), Of Ill Repute (very novel and fun setting idea imo, with a plethora of different ways to break inside, many humorous touches which i shan't mention not to spoil anything, very fitting background ambience/music loop and generally unique atmosphere, which i'll dare to say that i found cozy lol), the return of undead-themed missions with really great visuals and feel and last but not least, the famous mission taking place on the train to Sunnyport which pushed the original Thief 2 engine to its limits. If i were to be really picky, my main gripe would be with lavish recycling of original Thief 2 assets in some places (hello The Grand Hotel's exterior, totally not giving me a massive deja vu of The City Bank), but that's a minor issue and i'm going to shut up about it.

    One thing that i almost forgot to mention, the very well-made and polished 3D CGI cut-scenes were something i also enjoyed, definitely not a common sight for amateur fan missions, and one of the qualities of T2X that make it stand out (that one disturbing scene though, that was nicely executed).

    Oooofff i didn't mean to let this become a full-on review, but whatever i guess, lol
    Last edited by Meowdori; 10th Nov 2019 at 12:34.

  18. #43
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2004
    Location: Germany

    Quote Originally Posted by Meowdori View Post
    The most annoying one to me was the voice acting for Zaya. She tends to comment on events with a very exaggerated manner, which is apparent especially during briefing cut-scenes where she sometimes dangerously closely approaches the typical soap opera territory, expressing melodramatic emotion in her lines, making it feel at least ill-fitted. I'm not sure whether it's an issue with writing, direction or the actress' lack of experience, but i'd say it's probably mix of these three. This is not to say that she should be the Master Taffer's clone and keep such stoic and snarky, cynical attitude at all times, but there was a point where i stopped for a while and the following crossed my mind:

    She keeps taffing around, fighting adversaries, knocking them out without a second thought or hesitation, never comments hysterically whenever the player decides to make her kill somebody, yet on the other hand we have these overly corny cutscenes creating a twofold and jarring emotional image of her.
    That alone, makes the whole story less believable or immersive.
    Strange. I never saw it that way, although someone else has written something similar somewhere about T2X.

    I rather thought Zaya was a young girl, not as emotionally stable as some other (and some older) humans, and her adventures began as an emotional roller coaster ride. First, she was incredibly enthusiastic about re-visiting her cousin again. I always thought that she felt more for him than just the affection towards a family member. What if she had a crush on him, perhaps even loved him?

    Then, she is actually reunited with him, talks to him while they go through the city... and then some people crop out of nowhere, kill her cousin and immediately after try to kill her as well. She has to seek refuge in an abandoned, run-down house... and from the talk she may observe whilst looking through one of the house's windows, she can conclude that she probably just has passed from the frying pan directly into the fire.

    But then, some strange entity "talks" to her, apparently telepathic, and lets her bypass several deadly traps. She soon learns she has found more than just refuge from the killers, as this old man named Malak is about to help her getting revenge on these murdering people she has now begun to hate.

    During her long "training", she may already have come to the conclusion that she will have to break some laws, perhaps even use violence, to get to her revenge. She certainly realizes that in the cut-scene where she asks Malak whether all this is really needed. Does she really have to be ready to do really bad things to avenge Kedar? In this moment, Malak pushes her over the red line, behind which she rams her dagger into the table with a sudden burning fury. Her "bad side" (if you want to call it that), her violent side, has got the upper hand, and she goes over the top: Not only shall the killers pay for Kedar's death, but "this foul city shall feel it, too!"

    Malak has apparently sensed her emotional instability, and now pushes her over the edge, getting the Zaya he wants: The darker, ready-to-do-harm Zaya, who let her hatred fuel her, propelling her towards the revenge she now sees as justice being done.

    If she really is that emotionally unstable young girl who just has lost her male love interest, this cut-scene is not so unbelievable for me anymore. And the other times when she sometimes travels along her path of revenge, violence and killing while being on a "mission" (she would certainly not call it that, but let's use Garrett's or the game's words for clearance), she may have no time to think about the moral aspects of her doings, possibly being adrenaline-filled because of the dangers of being spotted and killed. But once she has completed one of her "missions", she would be able to think it through, to face her doubts again, "good Zaya" being on the rise again.

    When I was about her age, I was a lot less stable concerning emotions than I am today. I can sometimes relate to her, I think, and at least partially feel what she might have felt. "The folly of youth", perhaps?

    Maybe that offers an explanation about why Zaya's personality seems to be so contradicting at times.

    Think also about the two Keepers talking in the end, when she leaves the city again on her ship. One of the Keepers appears wanting to stop her and turn her into another "promising acolyte", but the other one votes for letting her go: "She has suffered enough". Maybe he knows (or thinks he knows) how often she went from highest hopes to deepest despair during the last months, and feels pity for her, she having to cope with her overwhelming emotions far too often for a human who is still so young.

    Quote Originally Posted by Meowdori View Post
    [...] there were some gaping plot holes near the very end, when the the story was about to resolve, which i'm going to put into spoiler markings. Namely, the fact that Malak doesn't even try to kill Zaya, after she refuses to side with him when he unveils his true motives, nor does he even try to close the portal immediately, is inexcusable.
    I thought that it was still pretty hard for Zaya to travel through the area beyond that portal. Maybe Malak thought that his minions would deal with Zaya. Maybe he thought the little girl was so broken after realizing that all her efforts to save her cousin were in vain, maybe even from the beginning - after all, she has dedicated about one year of her life to that, and now she learns that her hope and dream was never to come true.

    Or maybe Malak liked Zaya, in a twisted way. Maybe he thought: She could have become another one of my followers, a very talented one - but the foolish girl just wanted to save that poor little cousin of hers, not realizing how devastating a blow she could have delivered to her enemies (and the ones who brought her cousin's life to a sad end), not realizing how sweet her revenge could have been... after all, Malak was (as far as I remember) motivated a lot by revenge. And so, Malak just left her there, not wishing to kill her, who could have been like the daughter he probably never had. Or his most promising ally. Remember that "Our most promising acolyte has left us..." sentence in one of the briefings of "Thief I"? Malak could have felt somewhat similar to Zaya after all the time they worked, apparently, for a common goal.

    And perhaps Malak was more concerned about his imminent revenge anyway. Who knows how long he had worked for just this time, when he was about to let his enemies pay for their misdeeds?


    Well, I think I just qualified to be a psychological aide to Zaya as well as Malak. Maybe I'll open the first mental hospital in Zaya's distant home land, who knows?

  19. #44
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2011
    Location: Planet Crazy Pants
    We're pushing 15 years now of the same rambling. 'Zaya's voice blah...' and 'because her character evolves thus...'
    It's simple: one of the Devs convinced a female to do it. That's it. No production studio or open call auditions. Just Wynne, a gamer like the rest of us.

    And compared to the VO's in some other FMs, it's damn good.

    Link for the grateful: http://www.thief2x.com/credits/

    Quote Originally Posted by Meowdori View Post
    The idea was great in its premise, but there's the other side to it, and it's the execution of said idea, which is where the slippery slope of flaws begins. The most annoying one to me was the voice acting for Zaya. She tends to ...
    l
    Quote Originally Posted by baeuchlein View Post
    Strange. I never saw it that way, although someone else has written something similar somewhere about T2X.

    I rather thought Zaya was a ...

  20. #45
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2012
    Location: Sweden.
    Replayed it not so long ago and I find it immersive at best where the levels feel polished and has a good sense of player directions to them that it doesn't feel needlessly convoluted, voice-over I feel was very good and believable with a good sense of feeling to them, still remember on my first playthrough once I finished the campaign and saw how the end of it paved I simply felt satisfied in a good way, not to mention even though it is all fan made but some parts of the story felt like it both acknowledged and integrated itself to lore of Thief 2 like the servant project, very nicely executed project, takes a bit of maturity in my opinion to really appreciate and see the development team managed to pull it out and in such a good polish to it with their limited resources.

    Have seen and heard of so many taking onto T2 fan missions projects just to get cancelled or only parts of it finished in the past may be one major reason why I overwhelmingly feel so positive of this gem.
    Last edited by Ghostly; 11th Nov 2019 at 09:46.

  21. #46
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2019
    Location: Poland
    Quote Originally Posted by ValmontPhl View Post
    We're pushing 15 years now of the same rambling. 'Zaya's voice blah...' and 'because her character evolves thus...'
    It's simple: one of the Devs convinced a female to do it. That's it. No production studio or open call auditions. Just Wynne, a gamer like the rest of us
    Well, you say it's 15 years of the same rambling, except i wasn't here for these last 15 years to ramble, or read whatever had been said, so i naturally wanted to add my 5 cents to it from my perspective, having just played it.

    Also might be worth noting, that's only my honest opinion, no personal offence to anyone involved in the production of the addon was meant (i think i'm saying an obvious thing anyway)

    Also while Zaya's acting didn't convince me much, there were some other, briliant dialogues, which i found really well played and fit into the game (the burrick sausage scene comes to mind immediately, also mechanist vs hammerite arguing near the train station)

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