Ladders suck!

[The Pixie]

I have just got this game, and I am really enjoying it (the SS2 heritage is very apparent), but ladders really annoy. They seem to be the most dangerous things in the game. Going up them is risky, and I sometimes shoot off the end, and fall back to the bottom, but going down, well I might as well just jump and accept I will break my legs.

[Pyrian]

Heheh, yeah, Deus Ex ladders are death traps if you're not careful and don't understand how they work. (Same was true for System Shock 2, in my experience.) It's really just a narrow volume of space in which you can move in any direction - generally you want to face the ladder when you're moving or you'll almost invariably fall out of that area. The trick to getting onto a ladder from the top is to back out over it, then go down by looking down and moving forward. If you fall off backing up, just hit forward and you can grab onto it.

[lost_soul]

Ladders are always the trickiest things to do right in FPS games. I recommend always facing straight at the ladder while using it, or you will move to one side and fall off. This was one of the things Thief: Deadly Shadows did correctly IMO.

The biggest problem I had with DX ladders was getting to the top and not being able to stand on the ledge fully.

[Pyrian]

Ladders are always the trickiest things to do right in FPS games.

I liked F.E.A.R.'s solution: the ladders are grabbable objects.

[lost_soul]

It always makes me laugh when playing some games where I can be climbing a ladder and aiming/firing in the opposite direction. I think Quake 2 allowed that.

[ZylonBane]

This was one of the things Thief: Deadly Shadows did correctly IMO.

Deadly Shadows had the absolute worst ladders I have ever encountered in a game. They took all normal control away from the player and locked them into a dumbed-down console-friendly hamster-ball "ladder mode", from which you could only escape by allowing yourself to be spit out the top or bottom of the ladder, or feebly throwing yourself off.

[mothra]

ladder as usable object with locked animations: no thank you, I'd rather fall off. It's the most jarring and stupid thing to switch to another perspective as well during this - example: Chronicles of Riddick

[Pyrian]

...I'd rather fall off.

Have a nice flight. I think fiddling around with ladders is a big waste of time in what ought to be a simple and easily accomplished movement.

[ZylonBane]

Have a nice flight. I think fiddling around with ladders is a big waste of time in what ought to be a simple and easily accomplished movement.

It is easy and simple... if you don't suck at it.

[Pyrian]

Even if that were true - and it's horseshit, Deus Ex and System Shock 2 ladders are death traps to descend if you're not slow and careful - navigating a ladder should not be a skill challenge in the first place.

[D'Juhn Keep]

Yes well you try descending a ladder at 10mph with an assault rifle held in both hands and let us know how you get on

[Jashin]

Or maybe you should just get better at the ladder.

Being able to jump aug and catch the handles mid-ladder beats the crap out of having to push E at the bottom to "interact" with it.

[heywood]

All that's really needed is some tweaking to make it easier to back onto the top of a ladder, because that's where 90% of people fail.

[Pyrian]

Yes well you try descending a ladder at 10mph with an assault rifle held in both hands and let us know how you get on

In F.E.A.R., you stow your weapon to use the ladder; that's what shoulder straps are for. Speed is not a problem.

Or maybe you should just get better at the ladder.

I've played these games a lot. I can do it consistently, now, although I have to be slow about it, much more so than I would in real life in a hurry. It's just stupid, and, as I said above, it shouldn't be a skill challenge in the first place.

Being able to jump aug and catch the handles mid-ladder beats the crap out of having to push E at the bottom to "interact" with it.

It's the top of the ladder that causes problems. I wouldn't have an issue with having to frob the ladder midway if you grab onto it with a big leap. It would make that maneuver slightly more difficult, which I don't particularly disagree with. (Massive leap grabbing onto something is more appropriately challenging than using a normal ladder in a normal manner.)

All that's really needed is some tweaking to make it easier to back onto the top of a ladder, because that's where 90% of people fail.

That would probably be sufficient, yes, although some of the efforts I've seen in that regard are just as finicky (Dark Messiah).

[Bakerman]

I liked STALKER's ladders - they were easy to use and not too restrictive. I find the HL style of ladder quite ridiculous, even if they are flexible, quick and simple to use. Ladders in real life aren't quick or flexible, though they're pretty simple.

[DDL]

For what it's worth, the way the unreal engine (and DX) handles ladders is to constantly trace out from your location, in the direction of your viewrotation, about a foot in front of you. If it hits geometry, and that geometry is texflagged as "ladder", BAM: you're on a ladder. If you're falling, the trace distance is doubled (I guess to simulated JC flailing wildly for anything to stop him turning into a puddle).

The problem with this is that it's a trace from your centre (on the JC model, this is just above groin height). Thus when you're looking straight ahead, the trace is of sufficient length to escape your own collision radius, so it works perfectly. If you're looking down or up at too steep an angle, the trace distance isn't sufficient to escape your collision cylinder, so returns nothing. Thus getting down onto ladders is inherently treacherous, and you're better off just dropping down and looking straight at the ladder as you fall while smashing "forward" like a maniac...which is actually probably how most of you do it.

[Alai912]

Shouldn't ladders be at least a little bit dangerous? In real life, one misstep and you could easily be falling all the way down.

[ZylonBane]

In real life, you don't just spontaneously fall off ladders from looking in the wrong direction.

[Pyrian]

Ladders in real life are primarily dangerous not because people fall off of them, but rather because the ladders themselves are not properly secured and tumble to the ground with people still firmly attached to them.

...Example. (Yeah, yeah, I'm an asshole.)

[Yakoob]

In real life, you don't just spontaneously fall off ladders from looking in the wrong direction.

Really? Happens to me all the time

[Koning Kaas]

Ok, that's it. Was really enjoying the game once more. Played the OM's again, played some fanmissions. But ladders, those f***ing ladders. Well, and ropes too. Especially when moving down. 20 reloads and still falling down has just done it for me. Ragequitting now. Sorry for gravedigging an old topic and thanks for letting me rant.

edit: Heh, just saw that this was on the Deus Ex forum, was playing Thief though. Nevermind, point still stands.