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View Poll Results: Should Britain leave the European Union?

Voters
60. You may not vote on this poll
  • YES!...Must Brexit!

    20 33.33%
  • NO!...We Must Remain!

    32 53.33%
  • I have no idea what I want, yet I will vote anyway!

    8 13.33%
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Results 401 to 425 of 980

Thread: BREXIT --->

  1. #401
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2003
    Location: Darmstadt, Germany
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Tarantula View Post
    Funny thing: the exact thing that you're mocking as impractical and crazy has been the model that Iceland, Norway, Switzerland, and Canada have followed. By all accounts it's worked out pretty well for those countries.
    Maybe it's only working so well for them BECAUSE there is a EU nearby, to which they can "latch on" and profit from its stability and giant common market? Well, except for Canada, but that one is a whole other story and not really comparable to anything in Europe, anyway. If everyone followed UK's example, nobody would be better off.

  2. #402
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Land of the crazy
    Quote Originally Posted by Chade View Post
    I don't see what would cause the EU to grant more concessions at this point. If power brokers in the UK prevent a split, then the UK has just revealed one big bargaining chip (we're not really happy with being in Europe and walking away is vaguely on the cards so you had better keep us happy) is fake, and they've given the rest of Europe the middle finger for good measure. How exactly do recent events give them a stronger bargaining position?
    One possible point of leverage is concern among certain members that without the UK, the power balance within the EU is too heavily weighted toward Germany. Another point is concern that letting the UK go will lead to other independence movements.

    Having said that, the federalists who are trying to evolve the EU towards a United States of Europe would rather see the UK leave than give any concessions. They were probably quietly hoping for the Leave side to win anyway, because the UK has been an obstacle to their long term plans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Starker View Post
    On the other hand, EU can't really take a hardline position either. It is in the best interest of the Eurozone (and the UK) to come to an agreement as fast as possible to settle the chaos and uncertainty. Already Italy is looking to skirt EU rules and bail out its banks in the confusion. Not to mention that far right movements and terror organisations are likely to be looking to exploit the confusion for maximum effect.
    On the other hand, I don't think it's in the best interests of anybody to make major constitutional decisions in haste, out of fear, based on the result of a glorified public opinion poll.

    Quote Originally Posted by dj_ivocha View Post
    Maybe it's only working so well for them BECAUSE there is a EU nearby, to which they can "latch on" and profit from its stability and giant common market? Well, except for Canada, but that one is a whole other story and not really comparable to anything in Europe, anyway. If everyone followed UK's example, nobody would be better off.
    Iceland, Norway, Switzerland, and Liechtenstein are part of the common market but not the EU. Iceland, Norway, and Liechtenstein are EEA members. Switzerland is not an EEA member but manages to remain in the common market anyway. If the UK ends up leaving the EU, they will no doubt remain in the common market, either by joining the EEA or negotiating a bilateral treaty with the EU like Switzerland did. Exiting the EU does not mean exiting the common market.
    Last edited by heywood; 28th Jun 2016 at 15:24.

  3. #403
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: The Land of Make Believe
    Quote Originally Posted by heywood View Post
    Exiting the EU does not mean exiting the common market.
    But this seems to defeat the purpose of leaving the EU in the first place, which is to be able to keep the forriners out.

  4. #404
    Administrator
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: above the clouds
    Well you see that the anti immigration angle is only a small proportion of people who are hung up on it.

    We're on to how the people who actually have to deal with the mess handle it in reality.

  5. #405
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Yeah, I have colleagues who are right in the middle of it (Brits working in EU institutions). "Mess" doesn't really even begin to approach the mere thought of an idea of beginning to describe it..

  6. #406
    Administrator
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: above the clouds
    From a distanced perspective it's almost amusing the level of disruption caused by a stupid short term political bet. I mean it in a sort of disappointed sense of it being what I expect from politics. None of it was related to any British person's best interests. I can only hope there are sensible people on the ground working through it who can see it as it is, rather than some symbolic national gesture. It's almost like the uk has absent mindedly left the EU while it wasn't paying attention.

  7. #407
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    Didn't somebody sneeze once and the Czech Rep & Slovakia split up? That's what that part reminded me of. Wasn't any deep plan; it just happened almost cartoonishly and people dealt with it.

    But in other news my dear Indian-Brit friend born in London got a half-full can of Stella thrown at her from a car yesterday to the charming tune of "fuckin' Paki go back to where you're from." which made it real to me although honestly, aside from being vile dross of course, it's just so disappointingly cliche I wonder if they even care how lazy their insults sound (especially compared to the Scots' insult prowess on recent display).

    Edit. Incidently I'm meeting with an EU delegation to Japan tomorrow! On human rights in Asia & Japan. Probably Brexit won't come up, but I can't say I'm not curious about their perspective.

    Also should say, even though I posted here a lot, having researched the legal side of the EU & I'm def pro-globalization/integration in any context (well except post conflict/democratization, you can't rush it on those states or you get Milosovich or Hamas elected), but I'm still trying to check myself with a little humility that I'm outside the world it's happening to, it's not my battle, and I can only wish everyone in the UK the best in figuring out where to go.
    Last edited by demagogue; 29th Jun 2016 at 10:19.

  8. #408
    Administrator
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: above the clouds
    To be honest the racial slur could have happened in London at any time. There are plenty of ignorant racist animals around. They don't need much of an excuse.

  9. #409
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: The Land of Make Believe
    The vote has definitely emboldened the racists though. They feel like they don't have to bottle it up now, because the referendum has legitimised their hatred. Which, in a way, it has.

  10. #410
    BANNED
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    It's coming out in floods now and is undeniable. Idiots are feeling they can stay their idiot things on the streets.

  11. #411
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2009
    Location: The Spiraling Sea

  12. #412
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    So, Boris Johnson won't run for PM and Michael Gove will.

    This is Brexit in a nutshell, ladies and gentlemen: https://www.facebook.com/benjaminbla...53470938266707

  13. #413
    is Best Pony
    Registered: Nov 2002
    Location: The magical land of Equestria
    That was quite a knifing from Mr Gove; I wonder if he genuinely felt he couldn't rely on assurances from BoJo or just saw and opportunity and grabbed it with both hands?

  14. #414
    verbose douchebag
    Registered: Apr 2002
    Location: Lyon, France
    At this point, I'm wondering if anything which the Leave camp campaigned on was grounded in reality, or if they have just pulled off the biggest practical joke in political history.
    Anyone who voted Leave and isn't feeling like they were massively duped has got to be running on some military-grade cognitive dissonance around now.

    I was appalled to learn that my parents voted leave, but not surprised. They switched to reading The Daily Mail around 10 or 15 years ago and have becoming increasingly bigoted with all of society's problems resting at immigration. I was recently told by my father than he was at the doctor's recently and there were people speaking foreign languages and enough was enough - standard bigoted crap. Tried to ask him what his opinion was on me living in France where I sometimes have the audacity to speak English in public - no answer. Asked him how he felt about his immigrant son, married to his immigrant wife with their quarter Lebanese, quarter Turkish grandchild - no answer. Asked him whether he had a low opinion of his daughter who was an immigrant in both Australia and New Zealand and who had two half-Indian children with an immigrant to New Zealand - no answer.

    I guess he has a cognitive exception built in.

    So we've seen a 57% increase in hate crimes reported in England since the referendum and it seems the tone of the abuse being reported is very much an increase in boldness due to the referendum result. Then you look at how the respective sides voted and it becomes fairly alarming. For example, 81% of Leave voters view multiculturalism as a force for ill versus 29% of Leave voters. Worth the read and more eye-opening than anything which can be "reckoned".

  15. #415
    Administrator
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: above the clouds
    I only got through 40s of that video.

    For me the FB post linked up there is indicative of politics in general. Things only get done if the bullshit is dropped temporarily.

  16. #416
    Administrator
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: above the clouds
    Quote Originally Posted by faetal View Post
    I guess he has a cognitive exception built in.
    It makes me very pessimistic about democracy having any value when you see why people vote. Why expect a rational result? Yes, decide on the UK's management of global immigration by leaving a European alliance...

    The hate crime surge is even more depressing, and victims probably aren't even of European descent most of the time.

  17. #417
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Switzerland
    Quote Originally Posted by faetal View Post
    Then you look at how the respective sides voted and it becomes fairly alarming. For example, 81% of Leave voters view multiculturalism as a force for ill versus 29% of Leave voters.
    Yeah, that's the one I find pretty alarming as well - the entire list of items. I imagine it'd also be a good match for the growing cultural/ideological divides all over western Europe and the United States. I am hoping that it'll get better as the older generation dies, but then people generally seem to get more conservative as they get older, so I don't know...

  18. #418
    verbose douchebag
    Registered: Apr 2002
    Location: Lyon, France
    It's certainly important to note - if people are dissatisfied enough with X to vote on it, then it needs addressing. Just in this case, it needs addressing with better education.

  19. #419
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: The Land of Make Believe
    Quote Originally Posted by faetal View Post
    I was appalled to learn that my parents voted leave, but not surprised. They switched to reading The Daily Mail around 10 or 15 years ago and have becoming increasingly bigoted with all of society's problems resting at immigration. I was recently told by my father than he was at the doctor's recently and there were people speaking foreign languages and enough was enough - standard bigoted crap. Tried to ask him what his opinion was on me living in France where I sometimes have the audacity to speak English in public - no answer. Asked him how he felt about his immigrant son, married to his immigrant wife with their quarter Lebanese, quarter Turkish grandchild - no answer. Asked him whether he had a low opinion of his daughter who was an immigrant in both Australia and New Zealand and who had two half-Indian children with an immigrant to New Zealand - no answer.

    I guess he has a cognitive exception built in.
    It's the same with my girlfriend's parents, who voted to leave. I wouldn't say they were bigoted, but they've definitely swallowed all the horseshit about too much immigration.

    Bear in mind that these people own a villa and an apartment in Spain, and their other daughter is a solicitor specialising in EU law, who has an Iranian husband. She gave them a proper tongue-lashing.

    In the cold light of day they are very uncertain that they did the right thing, but it's too late now, isn't it. The solicitor has been told she may have to relocate to Dublin, and the job her husband had lined up looks like it no longer exists due to the referendum result.

    I'm not worried about those two, they are both highly qualified people who can be internationally mobile, but it's upheaval nobody wants or needs. And upping sticks and leaving the country isn't an option for most folk who will see their jobs suddenly disappear because millions of people had a rush of blood to the head.

  20. #420
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    Holy shit this story just keeps on truckin'. The drama happening with the Conservatives is making even the collapse of our GOP look not-so-crazy. There's something almost comical about Boris leading the country into open warfare and then scuffling out the back like a frightened rabbit. Before this is over it's going to make for the best made-for-telly movie ever.

  21. #421
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: The Land of Make Believe
    The trouble for Boris was that he only hitched his horse to the Brexit wagon for political purposes. Up to that point he'd generally been seen as a lukewarm Europhile, though his party's supporters are mainly Eurosceptic. Right up until the last minute nobody knew whether Boris would declare one way or the other.

    With Cameron committed to stepping down before 2020, the idea was that Boris would lead the Leave camp to a noble but narrow defeat, and be ideally placed to ascend to the leadership.

    Unfortunately for him his campaign was successful. The country is going down the tubes because of someone's leadership aspirations, and he's not even going through with it. It's tragic.

  22. #422
    verbose douchebag
    Registered: Apr 2002
    Location: Lyon, France
    Quote Originally Posted by SD View Post
    The trouble for Boris was that he only hitched his horse to the Brexit wagon for political purposes. Up to that point he'd generally been seen as a lukewarm Europhile, though his party's supporters are mainly Eurosceptic.
    Difficult to call how Boris really feels: http://indy100.independent.co.uk/art...eu--bkoHJPBuVZ

  23. #423
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2005
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Tarantula View Post
    Meanwhile...something I've long suspected but haven't said on here (since I don't have any publicly available sources to back it up) is now proven correct: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...economies.html

    That the entire point of the EU was to end European nation-states.
    Hmm lol I could have told you that 15 years ago when I first played Deus Ex. But really it's not like they've been hiding their agenda. That's been the official policy of the EU for quite a while now: destroying the national level while promoting the regional level in the hope of creating a federal Europe. Hell, that's the official party line of the Green Party in France (unsurprisingly called "Europe Ecologie Les Verts").

    If you want proof about any of this you just have to look at the work of François Asselineau in France. Or just look at how the youth of Europe was brainwashed to hate their own nations. Look at braindead idiots like SD: that's the EU agenda in a nutshell.

    Also I'm just going to leave this here because it's funny:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bn_6sU7O43w

  24. #424
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Location: Canuckistan GWN
    Quote Originally Posted by SD View Post
    Unfortunately for him his campaign was successful. The country is going down the tubes because of someone's leadership aspirations, and he's not even going through with it. It's tragic.
    It amazes me how easily entire populations are swayed by charismatic personalities. The mass mind of humanity seems very vulnerable to individuals with sociopathic tendencies, not recognizing the illness until it's too late.

    Is it a relic of our evolution or an inextricable part of our nature? Is sociopathy its own disease or some dysfunctional expression of originality. Is it necessary or incidental?

  25. #425
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by faetal View Post
    Difficult to call how Boris really feels: http://indy100.independent.co.uk/art...eu--bkoHJPBuVZ
    Yeah, I think he knows precisely how much deception went into the campaign. Tabloids openly declared a crusade on the EU and it was consequently painted as sort of a supervillain, hellbent on destroying the UK and anything British, and Britain was painted in the role of a pathetic little victim unable to resist the EU in any way. They constantly peddled outrageous lies about stuff like Turkey to be admitted as soon as next year, EU army being formed, etc. Michael Dougan was absolutely right to call it dishonesty on an industrial scale.

    It's been myths upon myths drilled into public consciousness over the years: http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/category/euromyths/

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