BREXIT --->

[SD]

I have heard all the so-called arguments for leaving, every one, and not a single one of them has any merit whatsoever.

Nevertheless I fully expect the mouthbreathing spastics in this country to drive us out of the EU and our economy off the cliff next Thursday.

The shock to our economy will make the 2008 financial crisis seem like a bump in the road.

Until quite recently you could get 1.4 euros to the pound. Now it's 1.26. I'm expecting Sterling to hit parity with the euro by the end of the year. It will make holidays that much more expensive. I am fortunate to have an okay job and the free use of a couple of properties overseas yet even I am not sure I'll be able to afford a vacation next year.

We're at the point now though where facts are almost immaterial to the discussion, as the palsied retard majority vote entirely in line with their prejudice and ignorance, spouting all kinds of nonsense about "taking our country back" and "standing up to Brussels Eurocrats".

You know, if you want a way of making this country great again, I can think of one that involves strapping about 20 million Europhobes into rockets and firing them into the sun.

Anyway, the moron hordes might think they can steal my EU citizenship off me, but at least I will be able to get it back by exercising my right to an Irish passport. Thank you grandfather for being born in Cork.

Seeing the Brexit idiots suffering in the wake of our economy melting down will be a small crumb of comfort, and I intend to wring every ounce of enjoyment I can out of seeing those bastards reaping the whirlwind.

[R Soul]

I think we should leave. People in every country deserve a government that's fully accountable to them. It's true that people need to form groups and pool resources, but there's a limit beyond which that just doesn't work. The purpose of the EU is to have a common way of doing things for all its members, but its members all have their own needs and interests, so that unity is impossible without causing trouble. E.g. Greece needs a devalued currency, Germany doesn't. How's that going?

No government should be forced to enact a set of rules originating from a foreign power. If right for workers and consumers are good, an independent government can just copy them. If they don't, a rival party can promise them. There are more workers and consumers than there are managers and businesses, go governments already have an incentive to look after their interests.

[Vivian]

Yeah, they can, but do you seriously trust the fucking tories to replace all of the human rights, workers rights, environmental protection stuff etc with anything worth anything? They've already tried to bin the human rights act and frack everything not under one of their houses.

Also, it's not exactly us being forced to comply with a foreign power. We voted for a significant proportion of the people running stuff.

The info on this (or similar) unaffiliated fact-checking site is pretty edifying on the matter: https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-law-w...influenced-eu/

Definitely read something like this before you vote: https://fullfact.org/europe/

[Krush]

But if the Tories turn out to be wankers, you can probably replace them more easily than the EUcrats in Brussels.

[SubJeff]

I have heard all the so-called arguments for leaving, every one, and not a single one of them has any merit whatsoever.

Nevertheless I fully expect the mouthbreathing spastics in this country to drive us out of the EU and our economy off the cliff next Thursday.

What the frak is going on? I'm agreeing with Cameron and, worse, SD!

I've not spoken to a single Brextwit who has had anything more than "We'l bel great again." or "We shouldn't let Europe/Germany tell us what to do."


Also - the Geldof-Farage river riot was briiiiiiilliant. Made me proud to be British. Love it.

[bjack]

It sounds familiar. Trump types in the UK. Some people do not like to be told what they can and cannot do, especially if those things go against the national identity (whatever that may be in the UK now...) The UK has always sort of had just one foot into the EU anyway. No Euro is a glaring example of that fact. Why allow some wankers in Brussels dictate what goes on in Nottingham? Why be the support system for largess in Greece or France for that matter? Didn’t you pull yourselves out of the dismal 70’s? Why go back to that?

No surprise, I do not like the New World Order. I despise the World Government. It is monumentally in opposition of the minority. It is tyranny. It is elitism at its worst. And so many love this. “Finally, we can make those idiots bow to our perfect spheres of knowledge.” All the while, they celebrate the poor natives and their quaint cultures as something to celebrate, like animals in a zoo. UK, split off and split up. Hell, I think Wales should secede. They speak an entirely different language. Maybe even the midlands should break off. Lord knows the snobs in London hate those from Yorkshire.

Local rule. It’s groovy baby, YEAH! Now where did I put my mojo?

[Melan]

Gryz's argument would hit harder if it weren't for the fact "subsidiarity" is one of the most fundamental organizing principles of the EU, which says that EU directives only have perogative over issues that can't be addressed without joint action, and all other matters (including implementation) must devolve to the lowest possible level of government that's able to address it. That means if there's a regulation that can be completely addressed at a lower level of gov't, the EU doesn't even have the legal power to override it, and there's a court that will stop it if it tries. That's what subsidiarity means. And it's not like a side issues. That's always the major principle states are so paranoid to protect for every little thing they do.

It is probably not entirely relevant to this thread, since whether Brexit goes forward or not, Britain will not be rid of London, who is their bigger enemy in this matter, but the EU has by and large abandoned subsidiarity and regionalism in practice. The lip service is still there, but ever since the mid-2000s, EU policies have gradually shifted to favour metropolitan areas as "the next big thing", and the results have been increasing centralisation, just like globalisation results in a concentration of political and economic power.

On the sub-national level, this concentration has gradually weakened the "Europe of the regions" concept, and regions, as well as the general idea of decentralisation have been caught between the "competing centralisms" of national governments and Brussels. The post-crisis tendency to renationalise, or recentralise previously devolved public functions, has a community counterpart. On the EU level, we can see an increasingly strong effort to develop supra-national governance, and community funds which were previously reserved to decrease territorial differences are being diverted to serve "community-wide" initiatives initiated by the EU leadership.

Regrettably (and I say this as an avowed regionalist), subsidiarity is no longer a functional principle in much of the EU, and the current leaders of Europe do not seem to believe in it anymore. As proven by the economic crisis, the Greek crisis, and now the migrant crisis, they seem to be increasingly paranoid about the idea of letting people decide things in a bottom-up way now that a large section of the public is not in synch with their goals anymore. And that is giving the Brexit campaign a lot of valuable ammunition.

[scumble]

Like faetal I recognise the helpful employment legislation that came from the EU. I prefer decentralisation but leaving the EU isn't going to make the UK itself less centralised.

I recently read a book by John Gray called False Dawn. I think it puts this EU question in perspective given the global nature of some of the complaints appearing in this thread as if the EU is the main problem. At the moment the EU is likely better than the tendency that might be resumed with Conservatives having no external restraint. I guess that's what some others have said.

I think it's worth reading the book for an idea of what a mess the attempt to impose some arbitrary idea of global capitalism on the world has caused. The British Empire started it off and the US has been working to finish the job afterwards. It also points out that individualist attitudes don't apply in places like China or Japan and the culture has resisted.

I'm probably not doing a good job of explaining this however. I mainly find this EU thing ridiculous given the global context

[dj_ivocha]

Say the UK leaves and by this time next year most people decide they liked it better in the EU, after all. Are there or will there be provisions in place to facilitate an expedited UK reentry or will there be some period of 5 or 15 or 50 years, where it will be basically certain the UK will stay out?

[Medlar]

As far as I can make out, once out yer out, should yer want to get back in, the queue starts behind Turkey.

[faetal]

There's no queue - Turkey has barely fulfilled any of the conditions required to join the EU. I'm not sure what basis the UK could be let back in though, I wouldn't blame the EU for changing the locks.

[Pyrian]

I think, on net, I'm pro-centralization. Yeah, it's always got some issues. But so does decentralization. We've got all these immensely wealthy multinational corporations running around trying to corrupt everything, and generally speaking it's easier for them to corrupt the little guys - or at least some of them. As long as nobody's talking about forbidding foreign ownership of companies, which is what it would actually take to have real decentralization, then the multinationals are here to stay, and if the multinationals are here to stay, then we need institutions that can stand up to them.

[bassoferrol]

Tabloids 1 - EEC 0

[faetal]

True that basso.

[Judith]

Not sure how the EU membership is working for the UK, as it's a developed country, but for those less fortunate it did a lot. The EU government might be remote, but the decisions about funding go through local officials. There is a great variation in scope of these funding projects, from motorways to pocket parks, urban renewal and civic participation programs, or something as simple as computer classes for schools. Without proper funding, those small-scale projects wouldn't exist at all.

As for the enforced regulations, in country as backward as mine, some of the things you consider normal, like "48 h after" pill wouldn't be sold at all, with those conservative boneheads at the helm. I'm not saying EU is the best solution ever, but I like the idea of having an alternative of less idiot-officials per square meter to all the dumb no-can-do jerks I have to live with here.

[faetal]

The EU works great for the UK, we pay less than 2% of the tax budget and in return we get brought in on the massive economy, science funding, protections for workers, regional and national funding streams for all manner of bullshit the UK govt couldn't give a fuck about, food safety, clean beaches, the longest period of peace in Europe's recent history, freedom to travel to any European country or live there (like I do) without having to fork out for costly and time-consuming visas.

That's just off the top of my head and only stuff which affects me so far. I don't have any say in how the UK is run either way, since manifesto pledges are not binding and are rarely stuck to, ditto election pledges - UK democracy is little more than reality TV with people choosing the person they think represents them conceptually.

[heywood]

That seems to be the way democracy is working everywhere.

[faetal]

Pretty much. It's sort of a misnomer to refer to it as democracy really. Either way, it makes the "the EU isn't democratic" arguments seem like sentimental fluff rather than factual statements.

[Nameless Voice]

Reading this thread just makes me think of this.



I don't know how much that applies to the UK, but it's certainly apt here in Ireland, where everything is at least part-funded by the EU. Forest parks? Wouldn't exist without the EU. Roads, education (which is almost-free in Ireland), healthcare, social initiatives - all supported and part-funded by the EU.

[Tomi]

A British pro-EU politician Jo Cox has been shot and stabbed today, and is now in critical condition in hospital. She was apparently attacked by a 50-something man who kept shouting "Britain First" while shooting Cox three times and then stabbing her multiple times while she was lying on the ground. What the hell. I hope that she survives.

EDIT: Unfortunately it's been announced that she didn't make it... This is very sad and tragic in many ways.

[nickie]

She was apparently attacked by a 50-something man who kept shouting "Britain First"

Where did you read that bit, Tomi? None of the witness reports I've read mention that.

[Vivian]

There's some reports of it here: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...west-yorkshire

And the dickheads in question have released a statement saying NOPE WASN'T US on their website (which I'm not linking to because they can fuck right off). I believe them, they're racist dicks but they're not (yet) up to assassination or anything. Beating up brown kids in alleys is more their vibe.

[scumble]

Well that's depressing. What the hell's going on when MPs are actually getting shot due to this sodding referendum?

[Vae]

Just like with Islamic terrorism, one's passionate beliefs can run deep and produce violent results, when an imagined outcome of the future justifies extreme actions.

[nickie]

Thanks, Vivian. My usual news-reading site has now been updated.