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View Poll Results: Should Britain leave the European Union?

Voters
59. You may not vote on this poll
  • YES!...Must Brexit!

    20 33.90%
  • NO!...We Must Remain!

    31 52.54%
  • I have no idea what I want, yet I will vote anyway!

    8 13.56%
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Results 751 to 775 of 955

Thread: BREXIT --->

  1. #751
    SShock2.com
    Member

    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: The land of ever sideways rain
    I'm hoping for the former but fearing the latter. Unclear which is more likely at this point. Logic dictates the former, but we're not dealing with that here.

  2. #752
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Btw, this is where the chart comes from:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...n-brexit-video

    BBC Newsnight's political editor, Nicholas Watt, says a cabinet minister responded with 'fuck knows' when asked why Theresa May is holding another Brexit vote that she is expected to lose. The minister reportedly went on to say, 'I'm past caring, it's like the living dead in here'

    As for whether it's possible to reverse the thing, theoretically yes. The UK could revoke article 50 at a great political cost and damage to its democracy, for example, and I'm told the grapevine says EU leaders would be okay with that. Another path would be asking for an extension and holding another referendum in a couple of years. A third path would be to reapply to the EU down the line, as the younger more pro-EU generation comes of age. It will be a harder sell, though, because other EU countries are no longer as willing to give the UK special privileges.

  3. #753
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    It also comes from this (the flow-chart part): Brexit – where now? The flow diagrams

    NYTimes article on it: The Man Trying to Make Sense of Brexit Is Tired and Would Like to Stop Now

    Edit: That flow chart has also been making odds on different options. The current predicted outcome is extension to late 2019 and a new referendum.

  4. #754
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Could be, but the style reminds me more of BBC flowcharts:




  5. #755
    Quote Originally Posted by Starker View Post
    As for whether it's possible to reverse the thing, theoretically yes. The UK could revoke article 50 at a great political cost and damage to its democracy, for example, and I'm told the grapevine says EU leaders would be okay with that.
    The short term (weeks/months) political cost would be almost entirely hit May and her cabinet of ministers, with a longer term cost to her party. But unless the party completely dissolves it will likely recover/stabilize within 5-10 years, possibly a bit smaller. Which is likely too long and scary for any currently elected career politician, who is probably more concerned with getting reelected than what would benefit the nation.

    On the other hand, I'm not so sure it would damage the perception of democracy as the vote to leave was very close (52% vs 48%) and the scales seem to have tipped in the other direction (if only due to Brexit fatigue). And if they do revoke article 50, there's nothing stopping them from trying again at a later date. Even if they may grumble at the prospect of a member state failing to figure out how to leave properly, stopping the process and then restarting it at a later date, I believe that most of the other EU nations would likely find that a better solution for now.

    A No Deal Brexit is going to cause a lot of logistical nightmares as the UK would be forced to (re)implement border control at every border crossing, including between Northern Ireland and Ireland. Which would go against various laws in both the UK and EU (in large part due to the Good Friday Agreement). If the UK doesn't implement border control as part of a No Deal Brexit they will be in violation of a bunch of international trade laws, which could cause even more damage to their international standing than any other option. Also, Parliament has repeatedly voted down any notion of a No Deal Brexit and the UK courts have ruled that Parliament has a say in how the UK can leave the EU.

  6. #756
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Naturally, revoking article 50 to buy more time and revoking article 50 to reverse the results of the referendum are different things entirely. I perhaps should have clarified that I meant reversing the whole thing, as in leaving the EU. It was meant as a response to raph.

  7. #757
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2003
    Location: Cambridgeshire UK
    Quote Originally Posted by Starker View Post
    The UK could revoke article 50 at a great political cost and damage to its democracy...
    The vote nearly 3 years ago gave a small majority in favour of leaving. It appears that if a vote was taken now there would be a small majority in favour of remaining:

    https://tinyurl.com/y9y52urt

    Is it really "Democracy" if you are referring to the past rather than the present?

    As for the political cost, Parliament and Government have made such a mess of the situation that I don't think revoking article 50 would damage them much more.

    Edit: WingedKagouti beat me to it. What do others think?

  8. #758
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Um, yes, that's democracy, whether it was by a small majority or not. If a vote was taken now, and more people voted to remain, that would be the second path that I outlined. The reason it can not be done now has to do with timing -- it takes time to set up a referendum and figure out the details and the UK must take part in EU elections meanwhile. A couple of years is perhaps a tad optimistic, even.

  9. #759
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    As for damage on UK democracy, I don't pretend that I really know what I'm talking about, but from what I understand the issue is that ignoring the referendum, while legally perfectly ok, since the referendum was non-binding, is going to cast doubt on the Parliament's constitutional legitimacy. Which is already happening, but would be happening even more so. Furthermore, reversing Brexit in that way will not solve any problems in the UK (nor will Brexit, for that matter). Half the country will feel even more alienated and angry than they already are and they have already been at a point where an MP was murdered.

    Is reversing Brexit less damaging than Brexit? I'd say it likely would be. Less damaging than a no deal Brexit? Definitely. There are no good options on the table, though. Every path will be damaging to some extent. But the most damaging of them all is this eternal limbo.

  10. #760
    SShock2.com
    Member

    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: The land of ever sideways rain
    I was not allowed to vote, I'm just some random EU foreigner in the UK, so it's not like it's about my entire future. I clearly would have voted Remain if given a chance.

    However, there are quite a lot of very angry Leavers now, and it's turning into an explosive situation. As much as I would love to just revoke Article 50, that might just set off one of them, just one, and it could do something really dangerous.

    To me, the most obvious resolution now is a second referendum, to allow people to vote now that we have the facts, not some unicorn post-imperial wet dream. If it's still Leave that wins, I'm much more willing to accept it this time. I'll still be angry as hell with the idiots that voted against their own interest, but I'm much more willing to accept their right to be wrong now that we know what a travesty it's been and will be. If Leave wins again, it will highlight the fact that I'm just a foreigner in their country, and not a part of society. If Remain wins, I will feel I was right all along, and we are a bigger people than those very loud frog-like pint-swivelling foreigner-fearing idiots.

  11. #761
    SShock2.com
    Member

    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: The land of ever sideways rain
    When I say anger, I mean almost Guy Fawkes type anger. Things can go bad very quickly. I'm worried.

  12. #762
    Moderator
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: Wales
    I'm with you on that. Most people I know think leaving is the best thing. I think they're wrong. But I agree I'd find it easier to accept with a second referendum resulting in a Leave majority.

  13. #763
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Seems to me the proper thing to do is have a three-way referendum with preferential voting:

    1) Leave with the negotiated deal
    2) Leave with no deal
    3) Stay

    Majority-wins democratic processes just can't always cope with multiple-choice decisions.

  14. #764
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2003
    Location: Cambridgeshire UK
    I don't think you have enough "Leave" choices there - the negotiated deal will alienate the Irish. Perhaps you should add a customs union, but would the EU accept that? It would involve a long delay I reckon, so that is another choice. More than four choices would make it unwieldy.

    And is it fair to have 3 Leave choices and only one remain? My brain hurts.

  15. #765
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by ffox View Post
    I don't think you have enough "Leave" choices there...
    Only concrete, immediately achievable options are included.

    Quote Originally Posted by ffox View Post
    ...the negotiated deal will alienate the Irish. Perhaps you should add a customs union, but would the EU accept that?
    The point - well, one point - is to not have any "fantasy" or even unspecific choices. One problem with referendum in general is the public will frequently choose a pleasant fantasy over a hard reality. (Given the choice, the public will happily select lower taxes, lower deficits, and higher spending.) If you have to have referendums at all, then let the people vote on what they'll actually get and not for a fantasy that nobody's going to be able to give them.

  16. #766
    Thanks for the answers

  17. #767
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Happening right now:


  18. #768
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Qantas
    LOL. You can take it a bit further even:

    Yo, I'll tell you what I want, what I really really want
    So tell me what you want, what you really really want
    I'll tell you what I want, what I really really want
    So tell me what you want, what you really really want
    I wanna, I wanna, I wanna, I wanna, I wanna really really really wanna zig-a-zag-ah

    If you want my future, forget my past
    If you wanna get with me, better make it fast
    Now don't go wasting my precious time
    Get your act together we could be just fine

  19. #769
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    So, finally, at last, the MPs got their act together to say with confidence that they don't know what is to follow and conclusively indicated that they don't really have any idea what they really really want by voting down all options once again.

  20. #770
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Well, who couldn't have seen that coming?

  21. #771
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    It's all going according to the fuck knows chart, at least.

  22. #772
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    I guess my big question is, will the EU allow an extension? Reportedly that requires unanimous consent, which can be a tough row to hoe. Britain can't get an internal majority for any option. If but a single EU nation decides that no-deal hard-Brexit is their preference... It's basically a done deal, isn't it?

  23. #773
    SShock2.com
    Member

    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: The land of ever sideways rain
    Idiot Farage has been trying to persuade as many of them as possible to do just that, and it only takes one nation to veto. Maybe one of them will succumb to his froglike charms. I don't like our chances. Then again, I like nothing about the whole process.

  24. #774
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    It would be amazing karma if it were Poland.
    I mean it'd be terrible, don't get me wrong, but people would laugh about that for eons to come.

    I mean they're going to laugh about this whole thing already, but extra hard.

  25. #775
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Wait - why Poland?

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