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View Poll Results: Should Britain leave the European Union?

Voters
57. You may not vote on this poll
  • YES!...Must Brexit!

    20 35.09%
  • NO!...We Must Remain!

    29 50.88%
  • I have no idea what I want, yet I will vote anyway!

    8 14.04%
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Results 776 to 799 of 799

Thread: BREXIT --->

  1. #776
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    Polish are the stereotypical cheap labor allegedly flooding in that we have to control, which like most everything else doesn't really have anything to do with Brexit, but tell that to the people that voted for it. There were memes about it around the time of the referendum.

  2. #777
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2003
    Location: Cambridgeshire UK
    After the referendum results were announced, cards containing the words "No more Polish Vermin" were distributed outside homes and schools in Huntingdon.

    There are reports that some people who voted "Remain" in the referendum would now vote "Leave with No Deal" in a second one because they are fed up with the prolonged bickering and want it to end as soon as possible!

  3. #778
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    Quote Originally Posted by ffox View Post
    There are reports that some people who voted "Remain" in the referendum would now vote "Leave with No Deal" in a second one because they are fed up with the prolonged bickering and want it to end as soon as possible!
    Fake news.

  4. #779
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Qantas
    Now that would be hilarious, because a no deal Brexit doesn't end anything. It means starting over from scratch.
    Even enacting the current negotiated deal ("May's deal") doesn't end the process. There would still be years of work to go in negotiating a long term trade deal.
    The only option that brings things to a conclusion quickly is revoking Article 50 and remaining.

  5. #780
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    Years to decades of negotiating just to reinvent countless wheels that are already in place now, just to end up working worse than they do now.
    I wonder if people appreciate how many decades of negotiation went into the EU package to begin with.
    (I know just because I took EU Law in lawschool.)

  6. #781
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2003
    Location: Cambridgeshire UK
    Quote Originally Posted by SubJeff View Post
    Fake news.
    But is it? The latest poll shows that every region of England and Wales apart from London is happy to leave the European Union without a deal if no agreement is reached by April 12.

    That will reduce the chances of a second referendum!

  7. #782
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by heywood View Post
    The only option that brings things to a conclusion quickly is revoking Article 50 and remaining.
    If only. It would be a way to escalate things quickly, though.

    I don't think there is an easy option to end this on the table (or that there ever was, for that matter). The UK should have taken it seriously from the very start. Easiest deal in human history my ass.

  8. #783
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    And the UK gets an extension until 31 October, due to Macron vehemently being against a longer extension of one year, which was what the other EU leaders wanted. Surely it will be just smooth sailing from here on.


  9. #784
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by Starker View Post
    I don't think there is an easy option to end this on the table
    Of course there is.
    The voting is done wrong. You just have to use your brain. (Hard for politicians).
    Another voting mechanism would have given a result in a week or so.
    (Or maybe 2-3 weeks in case of an excessive number of proposals. Or you could speed up the first rounds of votes).

    Step 1): Let everyone turn in their proposal. You might end up with 10 or 20 proposals. Lets call this number P.
    Step 2): Have a vote. Everyone votes for their least preferred proposal out of P proposals.
    Step 3): The least liked proposal is thrown out. There are now (P - 1) proposals.
    Step 4): When (P == 1), we are done. Else:
    Step 5): Continue with step 2.

    When there are P proposals, this takes (P -1) steps.
    The algorithm ends. Guaranteed. Consensus will be reached.
    You might need a few more small rules. Like what to do in case of a tie-break in step 2).
    With a lot of MPs, the chances for this to happen are low. But if it happens, e.g. you could throw out both least-liked proposals.
    Take one day per step, to make sure everybody can make a proper selection of the remaining proposals.
    The end result might not be the most liked proposal, but it will be the least un-liked proposal.

    Is this so hard ?
    I'm sure some people will have objections. Probably people who can't recite the multiplication table of 13.

  10. #785
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    It doesn't matter which option is chosen, none of them will be easy. There is no option that comes without its downsides or that will undo the damage or heal the divides. No option that I know of, at least.

  11. #786
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2003
    Location: Cambridgeshire UK
    I think one problem is that a considerable minority in the UK don't like foreigners. This is probably inherited - my parents and all my aunts and uncles disparaged anything foreign, as did nearly all of their generation.

    (Foreign in this sense means anyone who is not white, or whose native language is not English. So a white Australian isn't foreign,
    but a black Australian or a Latvian definitely is. Foreign immigrants must go. The EU is run by foreigners and so it is despicable, as are its laws, so we want out. )

    These mostly middle-aged or old Brexiteers think that those who wish to remain in the EU are (to quote a post today in my ISP forum) "traitors, fifth-columnists and cowards".

    I don't see any short-term solution to the problem if a lot of people think that way. We'll have to wait for them to shuffle off this mortal coil.

  12. #787
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Qantas
    Quote Originally Posted by Gryzemuis View Post
    Of course there is.
    The voting is done wrong. You just have to use your brain. (Hard for politicians).
    Another voting mechanism would have given a result in a week or so.
    (Or maybe 2-3 weeks in case of an excessive number of proposals. Or you could speed up the first rounds of votes).

    Step 1): Let everyone turn in their proposal. You might end up with 10 or 20 proposals. Lets call this number P.
    Step 2): Have a vote. Everyone votes for their least preferred proposal out of P proposals.
    Step 3): The least liked proposal is thrown out. There are now (P - 1) proposals.
    Step 4): When (P == 1), we are done. Else:
    Step 5): Continue with step 2.

    When there are P proposals, this takes (P -1) steps.
    The algorithm ends. Guaranteed. Consensus will be reached.
    You might need a few more small rules. Like what to do in case of a tie-break in step 2).
    With a lot of MPs, the chances for this to happen are low. But if it happens, e.g. you could throw out both least-liked proposals.
    Take one day per step, to make sure everybody can make a proper selection of the remaining proposals.
    The end result might not be the most liked proposal, but it will be the least un-liked proposal.

    Is this so hard ?
    I'm sure some people will have objections. Probably people who can't recite the multiplication table of 13.
    Let's say you get 10 different Brexit proposals on the table along with the remain option. If you polled all the MPs about their preferred option, a plurality would support remaining. But remaining would be the first option to be rejected by your voting scheme, because all of the MPs who want some form of Brexit would vote against it. The next option off the table would be leaving with no deal, followed by the harder Brexit proposals. The end result will be some form of soft Brexit, which is a result that few people seem to prefer. So why would MPs agree to such a voting scheme, knowing in advance that the overwhelming majority of them won't get their preferred outcome?

    Suppose they go ahead with your plan anyway. What will happen when they need to pass legislation to enact the specifics of the proposal? You're back to needing a majority again, and you're stuck. That's the situation May found herself in, after following the path to the "least objectionable" compromise within her party. She struck a deal that avoided the biggest objections, but few were happy with it, and when it came time to enact the compromise, it was defeated.

    The problem the UK faces is that there is no majority consensus on what they want their relationship with Europe to be. But a majority is required in Parliament to actually make changes happen, and a majority of public opinion is needed to stay the course through a multi-year transition period. There's no magic voting scheme that can fix that.

  13. #788
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Hmm, yeah, setting aside whether any sort of "magic voting" can fix the issue at all, that solution does seem strictly inferior to ranked choice voting, in that it doesn't actually accomplish anything novel yet is easier to game.

  14. #789
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    If they want to find consensus, I'm sure they can agree on something. But if they don't want to make progress, then it's easy to act as if the whole situation is impossible.
    Last edited by Gryzemuis; 11th Apr 2019 at 15:16.

  15. #790
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Theresa May is going to resign on 7 June: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-48395905
    Last edited by Starker; 24th May 2019 at 09:40.

  16. #791
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    Who's the leading candidate for a successor, and is the outcome likely to be successor-dependent or are we past the point where whoever is PM even matters now?

  17. #792
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Qantas
    I would guess Boris is the leading candidate, but who knows what deal making will ensue. I think the probability of a no-deal Brexit just went up.

  18. #793
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    Please not him. Christ.

  19. #794
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    I like this Niagara Falls metaphor.
    I'm not sure even Jesus could help here.


    Theresa May was a bad PM – but her resignation will do nothing to arrest Britain’s long-term decline
    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-a8929656.html

    Patrick Cockburn: There is a story about an enthusiastic American who took a phlegmatic English friend to see the Niagara Falls. “Isn’t that amazing?” exclaimed the American. “Look at that vast mass of water dashing over that enormous cliff!” “But what,” asked the Englishman, “is to stop it?” My father, Claud Cockburn, used to tell this fable to illustrate what, as a reporter in New York on the first day of the Wall Street Crash on 24 October 1929, it was like to watch a great and unstoppable disaster taking place. I thought about my father’s account of the mood on that day in New York as Theresa May announced her departure as prime minister, the latest milestone – but an important one – in the implosion of British politics in the age of Brexit. Everybody with their feet on the ground has a sense of unavoidable disaster up ahead but no idea of how to avert it; least of all May’s likely successors with their buckets of snake oil about defying the EU and uniting the nation. It is a mistake to put all the blame on the politicians. I have spent the last six months travelling around Britain, visiting places from Dover to Belfast, where it is clear that parliament is only reflecting real fault lines in British society. Brexit may have envenomed and widened these divisions, but it did not create them and it is tens of millions of people who differ radically in their opinions, not just an incompetent and malign elite.

  20. #795
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    TLDR News explores some possibilities who could replace May:



    Gambling, as always, seems to be the British national sport nr 1.

  21. #796
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    Ah my faves the LibDems are polling first in at least one survey. That'd be something. Of course they're as deep in the Remain camp as a party could be, if that says anything.

  22. #797
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Location: Canuckistan GWN
    Angela Merkel lays out the importance of European unity for those people too insular to know or care about World War 2.

    Factoid: Harvard was where George Marshal announced his plan to restore global stability, June 5, 1947. He proposed helping the aggressor countries recover, rather than punishing them with crushing reparations, as the victors did in World War 1, leading to World War 2.

    She also smacks Trump upside the head without once mentioning his name.

    The slow Burninating begins at 21 minutes, but the lead up is good too.

    Last edited by Nicker; 31st May 2019 at 21:14.

  23. #798
    SShock2.com
    Member

    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: The land of ever sideways rain
    I would rather punch myself in the balls than see either Boris or Rees-Mogg. In anything ever again. Least of all as prime minister. Posh, overprivileged rich upper class twits that will both benefit financially from Brexit, with no regard of how much it hurts the rest of the country they claim to love but really don't understand.

  24. #799
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: The Land of Make Believe
    Assuming he makes it to the final two, Boris is a shoo-in, but Brexit is going to finish him just as it has done the last two Prime Ministers.

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