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View Poll Results: Should Britain leave the European Union?

Voters
59. You may not vote on this poll
  • YES!...Must Brexit!

    20 33.90%
  • NO!...We Must Remain!

    31 52.54%
  • I have no idea what I want, yet I will vote anyway!

    8 13.56%
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Thread: BREXIT --->

  1. #851
    SShock2.com
    Member

    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: The land of ever sideways rain
    I don't know how much energy I have left in me to go "well THIS is the worst it has ever been, surely, it can't get any worse now..." on a daily basis. It would be hilarious to objectively watch the destruction of our country, except I'm living in it. On one hand, I would like to see a no-deal Brexit to hit those idiots who voted for it but didn't understand that they themselves would be its first victims, but on the other, their poor judgement will hit ME as well, so... I hate those idiots. And the ringleaders. The blonde one, the stick thin, and the bald one. They can all go intercourse themselves, as opposed to us.

    If only we'd have had 10 years of good education before all of this, and we'd never had gotten into this unending mess. People would have known better. Brexit is a failure of the British school system.

  2. #852
    Member
    Registered: May 2000
    Location: state of quantum entanglement
    Quote Originally Posted by caffeinatedzombeh View Post
    This bit I do find rather odd though. I would suspect that most people who disagree with the judgement haven't actually read it.
    I wish this were the case, unfortunately in at least a few quotes the problem the person has was the court having got involved at all and even going "what next, every single government decision the MPs do not like being sent to court?"

    Just imagine what would happen if there were, say, a special court in a democratic country with a written constitution which would be empowered to investigate whether a new law breaks the constitution or not and MPs had the right to demand such investigations. Madness, I say! Pure chaos!

    Quote Originally Posted by nickie View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Marecki
    the Queen has done what she usually does i.e. bugger all
    That's what she's supposed to do.
    I know, hence my "what she usually does" comment - which does not stop many people from saying "the Queen should do something". Kind of endearing really, she might have serve purely representative purposes similar to e.g. the German president but just because she is a monarch rather than an elected official, it's as if she were expected to have superpowers.

  3. #853
    Moderator
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: Wales
    Quote Originally Posted by caffeinatedzombeh View Post
    It's here if you want to read it. 25 pages but most of it is setting out the background of the whole thing and making sure it's easily understandable to those who read it (hopefully pretty much everyone)
    Thanks very much for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marecki View Post
    I know, hence my "what she usually does" comment . . .
    Ah, I misunderstood. I thought you were sort of 'complaining' about her lack of action.

  4. #854
    Member
    Registered: May 2000
    Location: state of quantum entanglement
    Quote Originally Posted by Gray View Post
    And the ringleaders. The blonde one, the stick thin, and the bald one.
    I am still trying to classify the bald one. The blonde one leaves little doubt to being a troll, both the appearance and the behaviour give him away. The thin one is obviously, to quote Nish Kumar "almost certainly - and I say "almost certainly" for legal reasons - a full vampire". The bald one though... I don't know. A mind flayer, maybe?

  5. #855
    SShock2.com
    Member

    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: The land of ever sideways rain
    Well he certainly sucks something, perhaps just the blood of innocent children. Or maybe just his own ego.

    Not a big fan, me.

  6. #856
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Ireland
    Stephen Fry has made another video somewhat-about-Brexit, but a huge part of it is about CEOs and the ultra-rich.

    I want to send it to the CEO of the company which I work for.


  7. #857
    SShock2.com
    Member

    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: The land of ever sideways rain
    This is all known, but it does bear reminding me of it, I had forgotten a lot of that. But he is such a full-on bullshit generator you can't quite keep up with the latest nonsense for fear of not debunking the previous load of crap, or vice versa. That's why it's very helpful to have people break it down into easy, simple pieces. Last night the BBC interviewed a former Attorney General who worked under Reagan (so, presumably, a republican and not THE DREADED ENEMY the democrats), who could list THREE reasons that Trump should be impeached, he broke it down and explained very clearly and simply all the laws Trump had broken and how each and single one of them should have him ejected from office, but then went on to say this will probably never happen because Trump ignores the truth, rejects it, pretends it never happened and for some reason is bulletproof.

    I'll see if I can find that clip, it was very clear and informative, and if I find it I'll post it here. Or perhaps better, in the Trump dump.

    [Edit]

    I meant the Trump bits in that video. The Boris bits are equally apt.
    Last edited by Gray; 28th Sep 2019 at 15:12.

  8. #858
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by Gray View Post
    ...for some reason is bulletproof.
    Because Republican politicians have long since embraced "post-truth" and their voters have little to no interest in punishing them for it, and in fact lap nonsense up like cats and then spew it back over the forums and social media.

  9. #859
    SShock2.com
    Member

    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: The land of ever sideways rain
    I think I may have finally figured out a Brexit thing. Let me explain it first and you can mock me later and point out the flaws in my reasoning.

    Britain supposedly wants to leave the EU, or 52% wanted to 3 years ago. A very slim margin for such a massively important decision, but ok, let's leave it at that for now. A union where the UK has strong and important voice, is seen as an equal, and has influence on how the EU operates. Granted, not as much influence as the UK would like, but still quite a bit. Representing 65 million people, of 513 million, so 12%. Apparently we as a people want to negotiate ourselves into a much worse position, for some pointless national pride nonsense. "Taking back control", yeah, right.

    Scotland, pre-Brexit voted 55% in 2014 to stay in the UK. A union where Scotland has apparently no influence whatsoever, and is largely ignored, and seen as the backwards peasant cousin of England. Scotland is 10% of the population of the UK. Scotland voted 62% for staying in the EU in 2016. ALL counties in Scotland voted Remain. All of them. At every single stage of the Brexit process, the needs of Scotland have been ignored, dismissed or outright mocked by England, by which I mean tory MPs. I was not pro-independence in 2014, but given how we've been treated, I'm starting to build up to my William Wallace moment. Nothing Scotland says is taken seriously in Westminster, as opposed to how everything Britain says is taken very seriously in the EU. No wonder Scotland is now tilting more towards independence. Brexit might be the very thing that un-unifies the as-yet United Kingdoms. This will not be because of Scotland's unwillingness to adapt, we adapt plenty, but to England's inability to treat us, and Northern Ireland, and Wales as equals. We, quite frankly, are getting increasingly sick of it. If this is the beginning of the end of the kingdoms being united, I firmly blame the tory infighting and division for splitting up the country, and Boris is just playing into the hands of the SNP. I may not like Nicola Sturgeon, but she makes a hell of a lot more sense now than Mr. Poledancing Afficionado, who, by the way, no voter has voted for yet. And to a greater extent, beyond the tory twats, England's inability to see Scotland as an equal. That in itself is probably the biggest red flag.

    My point is this: the UK has always been an equal and important part of the EU, yet the UK has always resisted to conform to the rules of mainland Europe. Scotland is NOT treated as an equal within the UK, specifically by the conservative AND UNIONIST party of rich posh English twats. We are being sidelined here, and have been for decades (or indeed 300 years, depending on your stance), it's just getting much worse now. If there was another Scottish independence referendum, I'm not sure how I'd vote, but I can quite easily see how a lot more people would vote for it now, given how we've been treated, or rather ignored recently.

    Things are bad now, but can quickly get a lot worse. Don't push the Scots, or we might push back. You may not like the results.

    The arrogance, selfishness and dismissiveness of the English is what might break up the UK. They treat us much worse than the EU treat the UK, and yet the English complain more. I try my very best to not use the phrase "post-imperial malaise" yet again, but it seems to very apt at every turn of this unfolding disaster. It, to me, quite accurately gets to the very heart of Brexit. An overblown sense of self-importance, far beyond what's reasonable. Longing for a past glory that was never true in the first place.
    Last edited by Gray; 14th Oct 2019 at 16:07.

  10. #860
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Ireland
    It's really just the English.

    The Scots voted against Brexit, the Northern Irish voted against Brexit, the Welsh mostly voted against Brexit (though the vote outcomes there were changed by a lot of old English people who retired to there and of course voted to Leave.)


    I was in Scotland recently and it seemed like a great place, much more progressive than England or Ireland. I saw actual action on climate change there, especially in Edinburgh, with them boasting about how they'd replaced most of their buses with electric and low-emission ones and how much carbon footprint they'd reduced in the last few years.
    It sounds like the Scottish would do a much better job at governing than the English ever could.

  11. #861
    SShock2.com
    Member

    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: The land of ever sideways rain
    Quote Originally Posted by Nameless Voice View Post
    I was in Scotland recently and it seemed like a great place, much more progressive than England
    Yes, and I'm saying that as a Scandinavian in Scotland. Granted, Scotland still has some catching up to do, but seems much more willing to do so than the very very conservative and slow moving English. I honestly find it quite difficult to understand how bloody conservative the English are, often directly against their very own interest. Voters in the midlands and northwest voted overwhelmingly Leave, as if they didn't understand that it'd mean the decline of their economy, and for many of them employer bankruptcy and their own unemployment. This was very obvious to me way before the referendum, why was it not to them? I blame it as a failure of the British education system. Too much of it is focused inwards, on Britain itself, as if that was the most important thing in the world, and not outwards, where the rest of the world actually is. This has always been a recurring theme in the British spirit, being an island nation, chest-pounding itself for its own greatness, fearing anything foreign as yet another invasion. I hate this level of narrow-mindedness and small thinking. We'd be so much better as a nation if we'd open up more.

  12. #862
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Ireland
    The Irish have never been quite as bad as the Tories, but they somehow just keep electing one of same two mostly-the-same centre-right parties, it really feels like people just vote based on whoever they are familiar with or their family traditionally voted for rather than actually bothering to think about the agenda that the people they're voting for stand for.

    I'd say that applies everywhere.

    One of the biggest failings of democracy is that a lot of people just aren't informed or engaged enough to make good decisions.

  13. #863
    SShock2.com
    Member

    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: The land of ever sideways rain
    Fair point, but I blame that more on Catholicism than anything else. The English don't even have that excuse.

  14. #864
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by Gray View Post
    A union where the UK has strong and important voice, is seen as an equal, and has influence on how the EU operates. Granted, not as much influence as the UK would like, but still quite a bit.
    From the point of the EU, the UK was seen as far from equal, especially in this century. It was seen as one of the big three powers, a country who had the most opt-outs and advantages of any of the members, basically amounting to an la carte membership where the UK mostly got to pick what they liked. Not to mention that the UK had leveraged its EU membership in the rest of the world, offering a convenient and stable point of access to the EU and profiting mightily in the process (eg passporting rights).

  15. #865
    SShock2.com
    Member

    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: The land of ever sideways rain
    Well, yes, the UK was slightly more than equal, but I didn't want to overstate my case. My point was that in the union that is the UK, Scotland has never been seen as an equal, and the English don't even seem to understand how this could be a problem, completely missing the irony there.

    I attribute this to the delusions of grandeur and, :sigh:, again, post-imperial malaise. I can't seem to shake that term no matter how much I want to.

    Honestly, the whole thing just makes me so angry I want to punch something. But I won't, I'm not a violent man, I'll just play some very loud KMFDM instead and shout very short words at Hugin and Munin to vent my frustration. The whole thing is a colossal mistake based on lies and propaganda. Ten years from now, when Brexit has happened, people who voted for it might finally have realised that they were played for fools and were mislead. A bit late.

    [Edit]

    I forget I didn't tell you. Hugin and Munin are my potted plants. They are now the unfortunate recipients of my foul language. They may get the verbal abuse, but also all that lovely CO2.
    Last edited by Gray; 14th Oct 2019 at 21:59.

  16. #866
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2001
    Location: uk
    Quote Originally Posted by Gray View Post
    I think I may have finally figured out a Brexit thing. Let me explain it first and you can mock me later and point out the flaws in my reasoning.
    I'll have a go, it's a very complicated subject though and I wouldn't say you're entirely wrong.

    A union where Scotland has apparently no influence whatsoever, and is largely ignored, and seen as the backwards peasant cousin of England.
    This is, frankly, bollocks. If you think you have no influence look at what the result of the last however many you feel like looking at general election would have been without Scotland.
    You could argue that everywhere that isn't London is seen as the backward peasant cousin of London and that's at least as true for any vaguely rural part of England as it is for any of Scotland.

    Scotland is 10% of the population of the UK.
    8% of the population, 9% of members of parliament, 9.3% of government spending

    Nothing Scotland says is taken seriously in Westminster
    Very little the SNP say is taken seriously anywhere because what they say is "everyone is mean to us, poor ignored Scotland" followed by blaming the English for everything, demanding more powers to not use, demanding another referendum on independence and generally acting in a way that very nearly makes other MPs looks like adults.
    It's probably worth looking back at what they said in 2014 and asking whether you think anyone should care what they say when approximately none of it is true.

    No wonder Scotland is now tilting more towards independence.
    Is it? Is there any actual evidence of that? (actual genuine question)

    I firmly blame the tory infighting and division for splitting up the country
    Can't disagree with that, it's certainly been a significant contributor.
    I'd lay the blame for a lot of the currently apparent division on (in no particular order) various governments who said they would offer a referendum on pretty much every EU treaty ever then promptly didn't. The utter lack of the faintest shred of truth on anything EU/EEC related coming out of anyone in the UK for the past 40 years regardless of whether they felt it was a good thing or not, anyone who has ever campaigned for a referendum on EU membership on the assumption that they'd be proven right about everyone thinking it's a great idea and probably most of all the last few prime ministers.


    It turns out that I can't actually reply to anything you said without pretty much just moaning about the SNP. What they have to say makes me almost as angry as it makes you though, just for the opposite reason.

  17. #867
    SShock2.com
    Member

    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: The land of ever sideways rain
    Fair point about the elections. But when it comes to Brexit, Scotland's needs have been both ignored and mocked by Westminister. Teresa May's deal, the whole backstop idea, while it might be the best option for Northern Ireland will inevitably mean that Scotland falls behind NI in matters where we try to export the same things to EU countries, such as fish or lamb. Boris himself has not once, but repeatedly openly mocked Scotland and how we're supposedly just complaining about being unfairly treated when we are in fact unfairly treated. This annoys me personally.

    Everything else I said is to reflect the opinions of actual Scottish people I talk to. I myself am just a foreigner living here, so I can not possibly feel as strongly about this as they do, but trust me, discontent is breeding, and it's feeding into the SNP agenda. Maybe Scottish independence would be a great thing, maybe it would be terrible, I don't know, but the whole mismanaged Brexit process certainly makes it more likely to happen. I'm not a big fan of the SNP, and sometimes they do play the victim quite heavily, but that's not to say there isn't some truth in it.

    And Brexit aside, many Scottish people feel we're being held back by the conservative, slow thinking of the English when we want to be more progressive, make more changes and more quickly, and this also feeds into the rising desire for independence. Again, as an outsider, I'm sort of mostly watching this from the bench, but this is what I'm seeing and hearing from the people around me. Granted, all I'm saying is anecdotal and not statistically significant, it's just whatever random individuals I meet, not a cross-section of Scottish society in general. I'm sure plenty of Scots will disagree with my assessment above.

  18. #868
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2001
    Location: uk
    The only sort of person that May's deal really gave anything to were the angry xenophobic types who want an end to any freedom of movement, mostly because she's one of them. The bits I've read (skimmed a lot of it, read very little in detail) were some reasonably sensible stuff about ongoing financial obligations in both directions followed by a transitional arrangement (extendable to 2099) of not leaving whilst a permanent position of not leaving was negotiated with a fall back position in the event that no agreement could be reached of not leaving. It's bad for everyone regardless of where in the UK they live and ignores the needs of the people of Northern Ireland, Wales and England just as much as those of Scotland. It gives up the vast majority of the benefits of membership in exchange for none of the benefits of leaving.

    As far as independence goes, you're looking at some of the same potential positives as brexit really as far as things like self determination go, you potentially have many of the same positives as far as greater control over things like trade but none of the stuff you'd need to do anything about it. You have the same negatives too but with 300 years of entanglement to sort out rather than 40.
    Personally I've not seen any sort of plan for how it would work that isn't incoherent nonsense (see the last three years for why this is a bad idea) and no consistency among those who want it (see again the last three years)
    The amount the hypothetical benefits are outweighed by the real costs (to borrow a phrase from earlier in the thread) is so much as to make brexit seem the most utterly sensible thing ever. I'm a long way away though so others may see more value in those benefits than I do.

  19. #869
    Member
    Registered: May 2000
    Location: state of quantum entanglement
    I agree with most of what you have said, Gray. I am not going to talk about this in detail though because frankly speaking, I have reached my breaking point. My own Brexit is now official, come early next year most of its direct consequences will no longer be my problem. I continue to wish the UK people all the best (even if it means some of them going their separate ways) but given recent remarks of serving government officials about how EU freedom of movement brings criminal element into the UK, it couldn't happen soon enough; I know when I am not welcome somewhere.

    On a positive note, I do look forward to living once again in a place where you can rent something larger than a shoe box with terrible energy efficiency to live in without paying through the nose, where public transportation actually works and where you can actually see the motorway you are driving on at night without switching your high beams on.

  20. #870
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2006
    Location: Berghem Haven
    Quote Originally Posted by Nameless Voice View Post
    It's really just the English.

    The Scots voted against Brexit, the Northern Irish voted against Brexit, the Welsh mostly voted against Brexit (though the vote outcomes there were changed by a lot of old English people who retired to there and of course voted to Leave.)


    I was in Scotland recently and it seemed like a great place, much more progressive than England or Ireland. I saw actual action on climate change there, especially in Edinburgh, with them boasting about how they'd replaced most of their buses with electric and low-emission ones and how much carbon footprint they'd reduced in the last few years.
    It sounds like the Scottish would do a much better job at governing than the English ever could.

  21. #871
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Ireland
    I can't tell if you're agreeing with my impressions, or smiling at my naivete (since I hardly got to see enough to build an informed opinion from just being there for a few days.)


    Quote Originally Posted by Marecki View Post
    where public transportation actually works
    I find this a bit funny because even the public transport in the UK - generally described as being rather poor due to decades of neglect - is so far beyond what Ireland can imagine, especially outside of Dublin.

    I remember seeing somewhere that good public transport is one of the biggest things to reduce the levels of poverty in a place, since it allows people to get where they need to go to work cheaply, without needing to own a car - yet of course it's one of the things no one ever wants to invest in here in the English-speaking countries.

  22. #872
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    Things are looking grim. Anyway, I just found this quote remarkable and, as it says, telling. It seems it's all about fatigue in ending this thing already and there's no energy to even pretend something good is coming out of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guardian
    In a telling slip, the foreign secretary, Dominic Raab, told Northern Ireland to cheer up and realise it was getting a “cracking deal” that would allow it to keep “frictionless access to the single market” – which rather highlights why this is a terrible deal for everyone else.
    Source: For three years, we remainers have held our breath. This is the moment our dreams may die

  23. #873
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    I don't know. Sounds better than no deal or eternal limbo. As long as there's peace in NI, I wouldn't call it grim. Certainly, there are no good outcomes here, but I can think of quite a few worse ones.

  24. #874
    SShock2.com
    Member

    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: The land of ever sideways rain
    Yeah, always listen to Dominic Raab. He's so handsome you might forget he was Brexit secretary and didn't understand there might be a slight problem Dover-Calais in a no-deal situation. I'm sure he's vastly competent. Just like his predecessor, who managed to do 3.5 hours of actual work in only 8 months.

    Like I've said many times before, the level of incompetence and awfulness just keeps escalating. It keeps getting massively worse, on a daily basis, then we dodge a bullet, then we're tricked again, it's all dodging and swerving and spin and twisting things. I hate this process SO much. But I don't hate it enough to just give up and take a deal, any terrible deal as we've had this week, when it clearly makes more sense to endure the pain a bit longer and do it right, or better yet, let's call the whole thing off. You say potato. I say pomme frites.

    I see no happy end to this with Boris as PM. But then again, Corbyn would make a complete mess of it too, he's been such a terrible opposition leader so far that he hasn't been able to score ONCE over three years, with an open goal, and all the opposing team's players on the bench squabbling with each other and not even watching the ball. If he's been able to fail this badly, he can not be trusted. But who can? I have no idea. There are some people in the background of this I may still naively trust slightly, but perhaps only because I've seen them say the occasional thing that made sense, and just not seen them being massively incompetent yet.

    Over many years, prior to him becoming PM, I've developed a deep mistrust in Boris. Underneath all that poshtwattery and bumblefoolery sometimes mislabeled as "charm and charisma", Boris is a truly, genuinely horrible person who doesn't give a flying fuck about Britain, he can't possibly, given how he doesn't even bother trying to understand how it works, and appears to only be working to further his own political ambitions, not in the slightest in what's actaully good for the country. Maybe his vision of "Britain" is some hazy Churchill fantasy that was never true in the first place. He doesn't understand Northern Ireland, and how very delicate it is. He doesn't understand Scotland, and how it may escalate very badly quite soonish. He doesn't understand Wales, just fluffs his hair and appear in high-vis and a helmet at some factory. People say he's very clever, and they may be right, he sure is quite a manipulative lying bastard, but he is vastly underinformed about most parts of the nation he is supposedly the leader of. And given how many, many, MANY times he's been proven a liar with actual facts I find it extremely difficult to believe any single word coming out of his mouth. A no confidence vote can not come soon enough.

    But then what? More chaos. Just hopefully a nicer, calmer chaos, until we settle this ongoing disaster.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marecki View Post
    I know when I am not welcome somewhere.
    Yeah, I've been getting that feeling increasingly over the last three years. But not from Scotland. I feel welcomed by Scotland, but not by Britain. Hostility from Westminster and hardline Brexiteers, curiously all of them English rich posh twats, with the exception of the nouveau riche vulgar loudmouth twats. And the clueless working-class English loudmouth bulldogs with their heads up so far up their asses they can't tell when they're being played. I've been here 8 years now, and I have my Settled Status, so I'm technically allowed to stay, but I've very often reminded that I'm part of "the problem that we have to get rid of". This smells a bit iffy to me, and reminds me of some unpleasant history. I'm not saying we're getting there yet, I'm just saying there are some warning signs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marecki View Post
    On a positive note, I do look forward to living once again in a place where you can rent something larger than a shoe box with terrible energy efficiency to live in without paying through the nose, where public transportation actually works and where you can actually see the motorway you are driving on at night without switching your high beams on.
    Yes. All those things. I do miss nice weather, properly built houses with both insulation and ventilation, and more reasonable prices. But on the upside, the booze is cheaper in the UK and there's more great music, so it's not all bad. It's just that some of the bad things are really bad. Why the hell do they build houses out of cardboard in a country where it always rains?

    Oh, and snow. I miss that. 8 months of snow, and -32C. And where half an inch of snow doesn't cause chaos for a full week. Hmm, maybe the racist assholes are right, maybe I should go back to where I came from. Except my home is here now, and my family.
    Last edited by Gray; 20th Oct 2019 at 00:58.

  25. #875
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Oh I trust those posh twats about as far as I can comfortably spit out a rat. But surely reaching a bad deal (and there are no good ones) is preferable to crashing out with no deal at all?

    I mean, the only other alternative seems to be to negotiate for all eternity in hopes that the impossible would suddenly become possible.

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