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View Poll Results: Should Britain leave the European Union?

Voters
59. You may not vote on this poll
  • YES!...Must Brexit!

    20 33.90%
  • NO!...We Must Remain!

    31 52.54%
  • I have no idea what I want, yet I will vote anyway!

    8 13.56%
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Thread: BREXIT --->

  1. #901
    Moderator
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: Wales
    I'd like to give you a sensible answer but I don't have one, I just don't like Labour much right now.

    I was wrong about most parties other than the top two being in the 100s but Greens haven't a hope in hell so I won't really be voting for them. Labour did well between 2015 & '17, up 10.5% to 20.2 share but despite what SD says (which is correct) I don't think they'll get close enough to either Plaid Cymru or Lib Dems at 29.2 and 29.0 respectively. I expect I'll make my mind up next Thursday. It's going to be quite novel to vote again anyway.

    Edit. It may just come down to the number of less than honest claims by each party as to how I end up voting.

  2. #902
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2001
    Location: uk
    Yougov's prediction is PC32/LD22/CON21/LAB13
    Electoral calculus are predicting PC24/LAB22/CON22/LD21

    So pretty close.

    If you're planning to vote for the least full of shit one then it's a shame MRLP aren't standing there this time

  3. #903
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Ireland
    Well, obviously I have no real stake in the election (I don't think Ireland will be too heavily affected regardless of outcome), but I have been following it a fair bit, watching on in interest with the metaphorical bowl of popcorn as though it's some kind of soap opera.

    As I've said before, I can't understand this really persistent message that every side is awful and that there's a huge amount of dishonestly on each side.
    Boris Johnson is, of course, hugely dishonest, being on record as having lied repeatedly, with verifiable falsehoods. So have a few other Conservative MPs.

    But the others? I haven't really seen it.
    Especially from Corbyn, who seems to be really disliked by a lot of people for supposed dishonesty. The problem with Corbyn was never that he was dishonest, the problem was that he was too honest. He doesn't want to tell outright lies even if would benefit him to do so. The only really dishonest thing I've seen him do is repeatedly refuse to explain his position on Brexit because he knows whatever he says will offend some potential voters - a lie of omission rather than a direct falsehood.
    A huge reason for why he's so unpopular on Brexit is because he doesn't really like the EU, and even though he says he voted to remain in the referendum, he just isn't very enthusiastic about the EU in the first place. (Something I strongly disagree with him on, as I believe in the EU, and that the future of humanity has to be through unity not through xenophobia and racism.)

    It bothers me that there's so much focus on the supposed dishonesty when I never actually see proof of that dishonesty.
    It just diverts attention away from what should be actual discussion - policies.

    If people want to hate Labour because they disagree with their policies? That's fine.
    But hating them for something that they haven't actually done, for lies and slanders spread by a press with a vehement hatred for anything slightly left-leaning? That's the wrong reason to do anything.


    Now, I'm obviously extremely biased (having been accused of being "so far on the left that everyone else seems like the alt-right"), but I can kind of look to the UK with a sense of hope, because there they have an actual left-leaning party with a chance of gaining real power, when there's nothing even remotely like that here in Ireland.
    We don't have anything as bad as the British Conservatives here, but instead we have the same two parties of corruption, greed, mismanagement, and corporate self-interest who have been taking turns at being in government for almost the entire duration of the Republic.
    Even though we somehow have what is possibly the best electoral system in the world, there are simply no left-wing parties here with even the slightest chance of getting in. Our Labour party was completely decimated and barely has any seats, our Green Party are tiny, and the other "left" parties are basically comic relief who don't really believe in anything.

    I'd like to see real choices here, choices like the people of the UK have in this election, and which they are most likely going to waste.

  4. #904
    Moderator
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: Wales
    My last comment was prompted by, almost immediately after posting, reading an article about sketchy Lib Dem ads. As far as honesty/dishonesty is concerned, I agree with you. Apart from Boris, I don't think anyone is particularly deliberately dishonest. Maybe a bit sloppy occasionally. My negative feelings about various parties are not to do with that. It's much more to do with me and my depression.

    I've voted once for Conservatives, once for Greens, once for Liberals, the rest for Labour starting with Wilson. Maybe I'll get a chance to go with MRLP next time. Thanks for the info, zombeh. I am going to start paying proper attention now.

  5. #905
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Ireland
    Oh, you're right, I'd forgotten about the Lib Dems' dishonest ads, though they're nowhere near as bad as the Conservative ones have been.

    My bigger worry with them, if I were a voter, is that I could see them propping up a minority Conservative Government in exchange for a promise of a second referendum, since their policies and values are much more closely aligned with the Conservatives than with any of the other parties. That would mean supporting Boris Johnson for Prime Minister, and, eww.

  6. #906
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2001
    Location: uk
    Quote Originally Posted by Nameless Voice View Post
    It bothers me that there's so much focus on the supposed dishonesty when I never actually see proof of that dishonesty.
    It just diverts attention away from what should be actual discussion - policies.

    If people want to hate Labour because they disagree with their policies? That's fine.
    But hating them for something that they haven't actually done, for lies and slanders spread by a press with a vehement hatred for anything slightly left-leaning? That's the wrong reason to do anything.
    There's no place for hatred in politics (not really anywhere else either).
    Calling them liars and disagreeing with their policies are much the same thing, much of what they lie about is the effect of their policies which are largely drawn up with similar level of maths to my 4 year old nephew.
    This week for example
    "We estimate that – just looking at some of our policies – Labour’s plan for real change could save families over £6,700 a year." - John Mcdonnell

    https://fullfact.org/election-2019/l...-not-credible/

  7. #907
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Ireland
    The single most depressing line in that entire article:

    Only 5% of people use the train three or more times a week.
    This planet is doomed.

  8. #908
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Ireland
    I was watching the "Everything But Brexit" debate this evening, and one thing that really resonated with me (because it's something I've frequently wished for myself) is when Adam Price of Plaid Cymru talked about how he'd once proposed a bill to make it a criminal offence for politicians to lie while in office. Obviously, it didn't pass.

    Things like this should be the basis of democracy in this misinformation age. Surely everyone, regardless of political views, should agree that politicians should be held to a higher standard and there is never any excuse for them to lie to their own people?

    But, of course, the people who would have to pass such a law are the least likely people to want such a law.

  9. #909
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Problem is, you can't really pass such a law, anymore than you can pass a law that pi=3. All you can do is pass a law that makes it illegal to say things some government process declares aren't true. AKA China.

    I dunno, man. Something needs to be done about the weaponization of bullshit, the wholesale creation and repetition of competing narratives rooted in lies. But I do worry that if you try and legislate it, it's not the true narrative that's going to be enforced.

  10. #910
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2011
    I reckon it kind if depends what your economy is and what your going to do without yourself culturally.

    I always wondered what England does for a living?
    Theres the BBC, but its not a worldwide hollywood level media powerhouse.
    I'm not familiar with any manufacturing?

    And I would ask peopel that question in comment sections for years and could never get an honest answer.

    And then I stumbled on this free documentary on youtube the other day,
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=np_ylvc8Zj8

    I dont know if its true or not,
    I dont live in England,
    but it says that England has basically become a world banking based economy.
    Just greasy getting a bankers cut out of world currency and economy.

    Which I think to myself,
    would explain how England always seems to be culturally tied to New York liberalism and Wallstreet in America.
    Maybe the biggest banking and financial capital of the world for a few decades

    So from that POV,
    it makes me think it depends on what are you going to do with yourself culturally.
    To pay the bills.

    And maybe America has some soul searching to do about that also.

  11. #911
    Chakat sex pillow
    Registered: Sep 2006
    Location: not here

    the only sensible response is a contribution towards information entropy

    What are you going to do with yourself culturally tied to New York liberalism and Wallstreet in America.
    Maybe the biggest banking and financial capital of the world for a few decades

    So from that POV,
    it makes me think it depends on what are you going to do without yourself culturally.

    I always wondered about England,
    but it says that England has basically become a worldwide hollywood level media powerhouse.
    I'm not familiar with any manufacturing?

    And maybe America has some soul searching to do about that also. ngland does for a living?
    Theres the BBC, but its not a worldwide hollywood level media powerhouse.
    I'm not familiar with any manufacturing?

    And I would ask peopel that question in comment sections for years and could never get an honest answer.

    And then I stumbled on this free documentary on youtube the other day

    I always wondered about England
    I dont know if its true or not,
    I dont live in England,
    but it says that England does for a living?
    I'm not familiar with any manufacturing

  12. #912
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Switzerland
    We hereby accept Sulphur's application to become the TTLG Poet Laureate 2020.

  13. #913
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2011
    Oh I get it,
    you moved the sentences around.

    The cut-up technique.
    How Burroughs of you.

    But he was also a dopehead and a wife killer.
    How about you?
    Last edited by robthom; 9th Dec 2019 at 07:31.

  14. #914
    Chakat sex pillow
    Registered: Sep 2006
    Location: not here
    I've managed to not William Tell anyone's wife to death so far, but not for lack of trying. Always open for volunteers, though! As far as dope's concerned, that eukyduky ship's long sailed, it's either the methadone coma or bust. Being a po-faced post-pomo mofo ain't for the faint of heart.

    Thirith: :bow:

  15. #915
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    I SECOND THE MOTION! SULP FOR POET TALKER TTLG 2016!

  16. #916
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    We're going to want a post mortem on this election.

    The impression I'm getting is, ruling party pushes all of its chips into bluster and blunder, it gets withering criticism from the "elites", i.e., ramen-eating graduate students and the like, the cultists are sick of the very arrogance of them, jump to the party's defense, and double-down on the bluster and blunder. I don't know if that's a fair interpretation of what I'm reading, but that's what it looks like is happening on the other side of the pond. I wonder if it's a premonition of the 2020 US election. The Brexit vote itself seems to have been a premonition of Trump's election.

  17. #917
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    I keep hearing that they won largely by promising to get Brexit done? I imagine the British are sick of it by now. Still no answer to the plain fact that the Brexit the Tories supposedly want and the Brexit options that are on the table aren't the same. Now that they have a majority, will they be able to vote an option through...this time?

  18. #918
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    That makes sense.

    - Do this imaginary thing. Call me when it's done.
    - But it's imaginary.
    - [Exasperated] I'm sick of hearing about the hold up. Just get it done.

    Repeat, but more intensity with each successive round.
    (In the US case, add illegal to the imaginary part.)

  19. #919
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Location: Canuckistan GWN
    Putin wins again.

  20. #920
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Qantas
    Wow.

    I expected the Conservatives to win, considering this was basically a second referendum on Brexit, and the "Brexit party" won in the EU parliamentary elections. I am a bit surprised about the margin of victory however. It seems like England is more solidly committed to leaving the EU than in 2016. Labour lost ground even in the northern industrial belt. I'm not sure how to interpret the results in Wales (nickie?), but Scotland seems ready for another independence push.

    I'm curious to hear the analysis from those of you who are over there, but from where I sit it seems like Labour was hurt by Jeremy Corbyn's past history of being against the EU and uncertainty about where he really stands on Brexit now. My impression was that the only sure anti-Brexit stance that English voters could make was to vote Lib Dem, but they didn't benefit as much as I might have expected.

    Anyway, this is a sad day for the European Union, which seems to be the only major global power left with sane government. No more hoping the UK will change its mind or hold another national referendum. It's really happening now and there's a pretty good chance that somebody else will follow their lead.

  21. #921
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicker View Post
    Putin wins again.
    Are you joking ? Or do you seriously think Putin has anything to do with Brexit, the UK, or these elections ?

  22. #922
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by heywood View Post
    I'm curious to hear the analysis from those of you who are over there
    I'm not in the UK (I'm a neighboring country).
    One thing that people should't forget is the negative impact of the district-voting system, where the winner takes all.

    Tories won 43% of the votes, but they got 56% of the seats.
    Labour won 30% of the votes, they got 31.3% of the seats.
    SNP won 3.9% of the votes, they got 7.3% of the seats !
    Liberal Democrats won 11% of the votes, they got 1.6% of the seats.

    Remember, a district-voting-system, where the winner takes all, almost always favours the establishment (the biggest party). It has a huge impact on who gets the power. And a huge impact on preventing change. Slow change is almost impossible with such a system. I find it a very anti-democratic system.

  23. #923
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Switzerland
    Quote Originally Posted by Gryzemuis View Post
    Are you joking ? Or do you seriously think Putin has anything to do with Brexit, the UK, or these elections ?
    I thought there's been quite a lot suggesting Russian involvement in the disinformation campaigns of the last few years. Regardless of whether you believe it or the extent of it, it's definitely not just some new, fringe conspiracy theory.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia...xit_referendum

  24. #924
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    People need to take responsibility for their own actions. That also means countries need to take responsibility for the actions of their own citizens. It was Brits that voted for Johnson here. It was the Brits who voted for Brexit (twice now). It was American hillbillies/clowns/fascists that voted for Trump.

    Impact of other countries does exist. E.g. the EU (who are not Scotsmen, and not Brits) did a huge last-minute campaign (including lots of FUD) against the Scottish independence elections. One of our larger parties (the PVV) is mostly paid for by Israel. But overall, I think those efforts efforts are small, compared to country's, politician's, media's, party's own propaganda. Pointing to the Russians (or anyone else) is just a sign of weakness and stupidity. It's the Americans who are to blame for Trump, and the Brits who are responsible for Johnson and Brexit.

  25. #925
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2009
    Location: The Spiraling Sea
    Quote Originally Posted by Gryzemuis View Post
    Are you joking ? Or do you seriously think Putin has anything to do with Brexit, the UK, or these elections ?
    Given that Nicker is a staunch believer of Russia conspiracy theories, sadly, he is not joking.

    Decentralization, is not the work of Putin...it is the inevitable progression of humanity, due to the nature of technological advancement.

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