Reply With QuoteThis mess is all his fault, the pig-fucking little twerp. He doesn't deserve any credit.
When it came time to ratify the Treaty of Lisbon, none of the member state governments wanted to risk another No vote, so aside from Ireland they didn't hold referendums. Ireland did only because their high court required it. The result was No again, but that turned to yes after some concessions and playing on economic fears (this was 2008, the beginning of the great recession).
Assuming the UK votes to remain, it will be quite the referendum hat trick for David Cameron. First he won the referendum on the Alternative Vote, then Scottish Independence, and now presumably EU Exit. Not only does he win points for fulfilling campaign promises, with every victory he cuts the legs out of another populist movement.
This mess is all his fault, the pig-fucking little twerp. He doesn't deserve any credit.
Pretty smart politics on his part though, don't you think?
Taking the country to the brink of financial disaster just to shore up his position as leader of a party irrevocably divided on the issue of Europe does not strike me as the smartest thing that has ever happened. Especially if the nutters win.
Yeah it's fucking awful politics. If he loses he's out, and if he wins he's forever known as the guy who shoved all of our hands in the fire just so he could be in charge. AND he fucked a pig. He's a wanker.
You honestly believe that either option is that bad?Originally Posted by SD
It doesn't sound great dude. The more you read about it the more you realise that yeah, it is undoing decades of exhaustingly constructed financial machinery that leaves Britain actually pretty well off. And replacing it with what? Maybe there are issues with it, but are we likely to get a better deal?
How do you know you're not going to get a much worse deal than we have now by staying in?
Well I don't, if you want to do those arguments. But is there really any point in asking questions like that? We won't be having to renegotiate everything all over again if we don't leave, which sounds like it takes decades, so it seems a safer bet. You're suggesting that potential disruption (if for some reason everything goes tits up in the future, at some point, for some reason) is the same risk as definite disruption, which will happen for at least some period of time if we vote out. Balancing infinite potential problems like that is a vortex, you can't win arguments in there.
Last edited by Vivian; 20th Jun 2016 at 19:32.
The funny thing about is, is that some are making this whole thing out to be a genuine battle of good vs evil when it's anything but that. From the cold way in which Germany consigned Greece to eternal debt slavery, to the non-democracy. Plus, it's all one big massive gravy train for Eurocrats who are nothing but tools of the banks to tuck their fat snouts into.
On the flip side it prevented WW3...maybe.
ugggggh who are the eurocrats, which banks, what
"From the cold way in which Germany consigned Greece to eternal debt slavery"
That's the line you don't like isn't it? Because you know lazy non-tax paying greek bastards. Alright eternal debt slavery is too strong a word, but the point is, you can see where things are headed for the southern european countries inside the eurozone.
Probably not, but remember that this isn't about the next 6 months or 5 years it's about the next 50. Plus I'm not trying to win an argument so much as explain to some extent why I'm intending to vote leave on Thursday.
I agree that leaving does carry a far higher risk in the short term (I think it's pretty small but it's still a lot bigger than "very little"), you're pretty much guaranteed there will be some disruption. Is that going to be better or worse than when the EU finishes putting Greece into the sort of debt that'd have people organising concerts in Hyde Park if you did it to somewhere in Africa and moves onto whoever's next in line? Is it going to be better or worse than the EU having its own army?
I don't know and I'm not all that sure I want to find out.
Are you talking to me? (Sorry, @dick Turpin) If so, don't presume to put words in my mouth, that's really fucking annoying.
Hang on, zombeh, you don't want to find out if it's going to be better OR worse? So what, you're voting to stop existing or something? I think I'm too tired for this.
Last edited by Vivian; 20th Jun 2016 at 20:00.
I think I'm far to tired to make any sort of coherent point.
The thing which worries me is this outdated notion people seem to have that the UK is going to be a major player outside of the EU such that long term, we'll be OK. Watch the video I linked above. Listen carefully to the arguments. Remember that the UK burned its manufacturing and resource sectors because they gave too much leverage to the working classes. In my opinion, the UK's USP from an economic perspective is its financial sector and not in any way which benefits ordinary folk. We have, bizarrely, one of the world's foremost money laundering centres and tax havens in the form of the City of London. A lot of the weight which the UK pulls internationally is in granting access to various EU countries via its financial institutions. That will vanish overnight when the UK breaks ties. The economy will almost certainly tank, because the <2% of public money which goes to EU membership will not outweight the loss in tax revenue from lost trade.
I've yet to see an argument for the UK's long term economic health which isn't some vague, far away notion of "well the UK is great isn't it?". Nothing tangible mentioned at all about what our actual economic capacity is, just daydreams of greatness.
Literally or Internet "debate" fatigue?
The AV referendum wasn't a populist movement, I'm not sure many british people even really cared about voting reform (sadly). It was one the Liberal Democrats's criteria for entering into a coalition government with the Tories.
I'm not sure why people mention Greece in this context? The Greece issue is a Eurozone issue - i.e. related to the common currency - which the UK is not currently a part of, so their leaving the European Union will have no discernible impact on the matter either way.
Wasn't helped by the fact that a lot of people were hoping for proportional representation (and which the Lib Dems suggested would be the case). It seems fairly likely that this was diluted to the less advantageous, desirable and simple AV as a way to make it easier to make it disappear. I think if PR had been on the table as originally suggested, it may have gone through.
Literally, attempting to type anything that makes any sense at 1am is beyond me these days. I am not as young as I used to be.
I don't particularly disagree with anything he said, most of what I might criticise if I knew more about what I was talking about is largely a result of it being a 20 minute lecture. My experience of the single market is that it's several different ones with different regulations in most member states, the general shape of things is very similar but the details are different everywhere. Perhaps I'm wrong to assume that it's like that with everything else and perhaps nearly everything is completely the same everywhere.
Above all I agree that pretty much all official campaigning from all involved has been at best based on things that are sortof kinda true from a certain point of view if you squint a bit. It's depressing that none of them seem to think that the best thing to do is make everyone as informed as possible so they can actually make a decision.
The problem is more one of media. There is all kinds of debate happening, but the debate you get to see and hear is defined by the varying amounts of emphasis decided by the media. What's frustrating is that the major outlets are just focusing on Conservative party Remain vs Conservative party Leave, which covers probably most of the dishonest campaigning and hence why a lot of the public see it as a giant 50/50 damned if you do/don't shitfest.
Ironically, it might make the UK smaller instead, as Scotland might leave the UK in the future to rejoin the EU. I suppose "let's make Britain England again" isn't quite as catchy a slogan, though.
It's all ridiculous. The whole exaggerated notion of the EU being a faceless bureaucratic mess was a caricature created by Johnson in the 1990s: http://indy100.independent.co.uk/art...eu--bkoHJPBuVZ
Which he is now campaigning against.
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