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View Poll Results: How long will Trump be President?

Voters
144. You may not vote on this poll
  • 1 Term (4 Years)

    26 18.06%
  • 2 Terms (8 Years)

    51 35.42%
  • 1st Term Impeachment/Assassination

    50 34.72%
  • 2nd Term Impeachment/Assassination

    4 2.78%
  • I don't know what's going on!

    13 9.03%
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Thread: ✮✮✮ !Trump Dump! ✮✮✮

  1. #701
    Quote Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
    Now did John Kerry claim as much? Did he go out and say that, if he were to lose, it was because the Republicans had rigged the election against him? Has any presidential candidate besides Trump made that claim in recent history?
    Yes. Quite a few. Look on MSBNC for starters.


    Besides which you're making a completely STUPID distinction.

    Let me give you two scenarios. In Scenario 1, I hold a press conference that accuses you of being a child porn addict. In Scenario 2, I have a close friend of mine on the local television station air a segment that accuses you of being a child porn addict.

    The ONLY difference between the two scenarios is that in Scenario 2 I have plausible deniability that I'm behind it.

    Quite frankly, IT DOES NOT FUCKING MATTER whether the candidate says it directly or whether the candidate's surrogates say it. It is indicate of skill at political maneuvering and nothing else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
    If we're gonna play the Godwin card, let's not discount the fact that you alt-right people have far more in common with the politics of the Authoritarian uprisings in the 30's than any of our current set of quote unquote elitists.
    "You alt right people".

    Funny.

    A: I'm not particularly alt right.

    B:Last time I checked, the "alt right" weren't the ones busy:

    *Bombing Funerals

    *Setting up a spying system that puts the SS, the KGB, and the Stasi COMBINED to shame.

    *Starting numerous wars that all involve killing brown people.

    *Intimidating Journalists and the press



    *Running an international torture program

    *Supporting, Arming, Funding, and Training the world's currently most dangerous terrorist organization (because...oil pipelines)

    *Prosecuting more whistleblowers than EVERY PREVIOUS ADMINISTRATION COMBINED

    *Using Government agencies to attack political opposition


    All This...All THIS.

    AND YOU THINK THE ALT RIGHT ARE THE FASCISTS?

    I mean FFS. We have impeached presidents for actions less than any one of these things, yet people like you are so completely blinded by your hatred or "right wingers" that there is absolutely no amount of corruption, or evil, in the world that you are not OK with as long as it stops conservatives.

  2. #702
    Oh yes....almost forgot.

    Obama has claimed that he has the power to kill any American citizen, anywhere in the world, with no judicial oversight....and he has used that power. That alone is far more extreme than anything even Trump, who himself has abysmal civil liberties positions, has advocated for.


    Go ahead. Go ahead and say that one more time that the "alt right" are the fascists.

  3. #703
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2009
    Location: The Spiraling Sea
    Donald Trump's foreign policy speech...


  4. #704
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Tarantula View Post
    That alone is far more extreme than anything even Trump, who himself has abysmal civil liberties positions, has advocated for.
    I don't know, calling for more cruel torture methods and using nukes is pretty extreme, if you ask me.

  5. #705
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2002
    Location: London / London / London
    The alt right are the facists, Tony. They did all the chemtrails. All of them.
    Last edited by Vivian; 15th Aug 2016 at 18:37.

  6. #706
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Tarantula View Post
    All This...All THIS.

    AND YOU THINK THE ALT RIGHT ARE THE FASCISTS?

    I mean FFS. We have impeached presidents for actions less than any one of these things, yet people like you are so completely blinded by your hatred or "right wingers" that there is absolutely no amount of corruption, or evil, in the world that you are not OK with as long as it stops conservatives.
    First off, let's analyze your tendency to twist and spin certain issues that have arisen into a mold that entirely benefits you and yours.

    "Obama has claimed that he has the power to kill any American citizen, anywhere in the world, with no judicial oversight....and he has used that power. That alone is far more extreme than anything even Trump, who himself has abysmal civil liberties positions, has advocated for."

    Sounds terrible, doesn't it? Obama can just go around killing innocent Americans via drone attacks at will. What a horrible thing to do! We should be up in arms over this. We're never safe. Oh my god!

    ...but then we consider the fact that the two American citizens killed under Obama's program were actively aiding and abetting our enemies in foreign lands. If this were any other person, we wouldn't be wailing and gnashing our teeth at the gross disregard of our constitution, at our president overstepping his boundaries. Now I'll admit that it's easy to claim that that "of, if this were X, you'd all be acting differently". But in this case, you're all so quick to trip over yourselves to blame Obama for whatever you can, you provide more than enough evidence that, well, it's true.

    Want an example? Look at how the same people who looked down their noses Obama for his extra judicial drone strikes treated his retrieval of Bo Bergdahl. Unlike Anwar Al-Awlaki, Bergdahl wasn't committing treason against the US. He went AWOL, and found himself captured by our enemies. Though this wasn't a consideration of those who's entirely political discourse is to screaming like howler monkeys every time our Muslim born traitor in chief blows his nose. Oh no. HE NEGOTIATED WITH OUR ENEMIES TO RETREIVE A TRAITOR! MORE PROOF OBAMA HATES AMERICA!

    As for starting wars that "kill numerous brown people". Let's see, neither Obama nor Clinton started any wars. They certainly played their part in taking advantage of regional strife, but started? Oh no. Libya? Syria? All civil wars we happily hopped in after all those poor brown people started killing other brown people.

    I also find it amazing how the very same people who's entire foreign policy can be summed up as "bomb the sand niggers" have now found themselves suddenly growing a social conscience, weeping and screaming about the plight of all the innocent Muslims dying due to the actions of our tyrant in chief, while at the same time, advocate watch lists for all known Muslim adherents in the United States, and supporting the notion of a religion wide immigration ban.

    It's so amazing how conditional your caring is. Where were you all when Bush decided to invade Iraq on entirely false pretenses? Probably supporting the notion. Now that history has given us some hindsight, we can turn around and blame Hillary Clinton for being a warmonger because she was one of many senators who voted for it.

    Bombing funerals, huh? I remember a report about a coalition strike against a wedding in Iraq back in, I think, 2007 or so. It's a tradition to fire weapons in the air during the post wedding celebration. The gunfire ended up drawing military attention, and they responded with a guided missile. One of the more common responses to this tragedy was "they're being invaded. They should know better than to do anything that'll draw attention to themselves. How was the army supposed to know it was just a wedding. They only have themselves to blame". A pragmatic response, certainly. But now that something similar has happened under Obama's administration? Oh, you're all a bunch of bleeding hearts now.

    I guess I could sum up your entire contradictory policy on the middle east as a "Obama's wars are killing brown people. We shouldn't start more wars in Iraq. Obama isn't doing enough to combat ISIS, which he created, by wanting to pull out of the entire region like a coward." When your entire political belief system is finding a way to blame one guy and his political party for all the ills facing the world, it should be expected that you and yours won't be able to come up with anything coherent.

    The IRS scandal? Oh, it was incredibly stupid. Petty at the very least. I'll give you that. But let's not pretend it was anything but the usual partisan BS being played out on yet another political battlefield. But, you know, this is a chance to make some hay at Obama's expense, so it's...TYRANNY.

    I'm not going to say Obama's perfect. He's fell far short of delivering the hope and change we all hoped for, at least as far as our foreign affairs are concerned. What I find amazing is that he's more of the same. The very same things you praised Bush for, you lambaste Obama over.

    And you claim it's always the Lefties that "are so completely blinded by your hatred or 'right wingers'", which is funny, because you and yours are always the first to blame "the left" (which seems to be anyone who doesn't fall in lock step with you politically) for anything and everything that goes wrong.

    You're a hypocrite, Tony. A stupid fucking hypocrite who's head has been stuck so far up your ass for so long, you've convinced yourself your own shit smells like roses.

  7. #707
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2000
    Location: Portreath Cornwall UK
    Good thread this

  8. #708
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2005
    Quote Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
    As for starting wars that "kill numerous brown people". Let's see, neither Obama nor Clinton started any wars. They certainly played their part in taking advantage of regional strife, but started? Oh no. Libya? Syria? All civil wars we happily hopped in after all those poor brown people started killing other brown people.
    But why did you hop in at all? If you hadn't it would have been just that, regional strife. Not fucking millions dead or displaced and two countries annihilated.

    And I can't speak for Tony but personally I've always been opposed to american intervention abroad. Whether it was under Bush or Obama the foreign policy of the US has always been the same: destabilize, invade and/or annihilate any foreign nation not aligned on the US. Obama is just there to present things in a better light, and make it look more humane. If you think that's a good thing, good for you. But some of us can see through the bullshit and are still counting the dead.

    Back during the Bush era, even our government who still had a semblance of sanity at the time refused to join in. If you ask the French people today, the vast majority of them (left or right) will tell you the same: nobody here wants to go to war with random foreign countries. Which is more than can be said about the american people.

  9. #709
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    Huh? The US did limited airstrikes in Libya before pulling out when it was clear they did nothing, and the US hasn't done anything in Syria except strikes on ISIS oil fields and the like, which have also been useless except sapping ISIS funds. Libyans and Syrians have been quite adept at displacing and throwing into misery millions of their countrymen without any help, and in fact almost total apathy from the US.

    Iraq is a different story. That really was a US-led clusterfuck that was completely unnecessary and avoidable. Afghanistan is another story still. Arguably more called for, but not sure intervention can do anything since radical forces allegedly have the protection of Pakistan.

  10. #710
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Quote Originally Posted by Manwe View Post
    But why did you hop in at all? If you hadn't it would have been just that, regional strife. Not fucking millions dead or displaced and two countries annihilated.
    Because the situation is far more complicated than just making a decision to stay or leave. I'm not exactly a fan of our interventionist strategy in the Middle East. The results of our 40+ years of meddling in Middle Eastern affairs doesn't exactly reflect well upon us as a country, and hasn't netted us anything besides continuing to prop up the always strong, always tenuously positioned petrodollar for another X amount of years.

    But I also understand that our involvement in the Middle East has become an incredibly complicated question that doesn't have a single easy easy answer. We can't just leave, and allow ISIS to grow uncontested, becoming a stable mainstay in the region. That'd be kicking a can down the road, washing our hands of a current problem, only to have to deal with something far worse 5-10 years later. That said, staying on and continuing the status quo isn't exactly a compelling alternative, either. It'll inevitably lead to more lives lost, more international crises, and more trillions spent, all to keep things at least somewhat tenable politically and economically.

    Though to back up what Demagogue said, our involvement in Libya and Syria can only be described as halfassed at best. We haven't done much of anything besides display the occasional show of force, as if to prove that we're still at least somewhat committed. The only reason why you have Tony and Co. screaming about the billions of gallons of Muslim blood on Obama's hands is because Hillary Clinton, rather stupidly, decided to claim credit for Gaddafi's assassination during some interview or another for cheap political cookie points.

    To sum it up, our policies and actions over the last 16 years have created a situation that we can't ignore. It's no longer a question of staying or leaving, rather choosing between the rock and the hard place. We might have to stay simply to fix this dangerous mess we've made for everyone.

  11. #711
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: The Plateaux Of Mirror
    lol@40+ years

  12. #712
    Member
    Registered: Mar 1999
    Location: I can't find myself
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Tarantula View Post
    Yes. Quite a few. Look on MSBNC for starters.
    Stop willfully conflating Electoral Fraud with Voter Disenfranchisement.

    DNC monitors were watching for things like registered voters being turned away at the polls due to voter ID laws, or targeted discriminatory events like the Florida Central Voter File purge from the 2000 election. And that's what us lefties are talking about when we express concerns that an election may not accurately reflect the will of the people. Making sure that every vote is counted.

    Trump is raising the bogeyman of 'people voting a whole bunch of times.' Which is a thing that happens so rarely that it can't possibly have any effect on an election one way or the other.

  13. #713
    Quote Originally Posted by Fafhrd View Post
    Stop willfully conflating Electoral Fraud with Voter Disenfranchisement.

    Trump is raising the bogeyman of 'people voting a whole bunch of times.' Which is a thing that happens so rarely that it can't possibly have any effect on an election one way or the other.
    You're the one doing conflating. I am specifically referring to talking points like the one that Kerry lost in 2004 because Ohio voting machines were rigged.


    Also regarding the "people voting a whole bunch of times". America actually has a pretty long history of voter fraud. One of the more famous incidents occurred in 1946 in Georgia where a large number of deceased residents of Telfair county all rose from their graves, marched to the poll in alphabetical order, and voted for the Democrat candidate for governor Herman Talmadge.


    Though to back up what Demagogue said, our involvement in Libya and Syria can only be described as halfassed at best. We haven't done much of anything besides display the occasional show of force, as if to prove that we're still at least somewhat committed. The only reason why you have Tony and Co. screaming about the billions of gallons of Muslim blood on Obama's hands is because Hillary Clinton, rather stupidly, decided to claim credit for Gaddafi's assassination during some interview or another for cheap political cookie points.
    Are you being willfully ignorant? THE UNITED STATES WAS ARMING ISIS FROM THE BEGINNING

    So no. I am not saying that because Hillary Clinton claimed credit. I am saying that because the US, helmed by Obama and Hillary at the time actively supported the creation of ISIS.

    I mean for fucks sake. I have been warning about this for YEARS on here and the fact that you are saying this even after responding to posts where I laid out that information you still don't know this indicates that either you are incapable of processing information that goes against your ideology or you are intentionally lying.

    Huh? The US did limited airstrikes in Libya before pulling out when it was clear they did nothing, and the US hasn't done anything in Syria except strikes on ISIS oil fields and the like, which have also been useless except sapping ISIS funds. Libyans and Syrians have been quite adept at displacing and throwing into misery millions of their countrymen without any help, and in fact almost total apathy from the US.
    That's bullshit for the masses. Besides the messages I saw, the US was more involved than just "airstrikes" in Libya and had ground troops.

    I know because I SAW the transponder signals with my own eyes.



    Also a bit off topic but I can't resist some faetal bating.

    So Faetal, how does it feel....knowing that you behave like a well trained dog when it comes to your belief systems?

    From the Soros leak


  14. #714
    TLDR version.

    That’s the real question that ought to be raised by a recently declassified Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) report, obtained by Judicial Watch in a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit. The August 2012 document describes how the U.S. ended up on the same general side in the Syrian Civil War as Al Qaeda in Iraq, the predecessor to ISIS. “AQI supported the Syrian opposition from the beginning,” the report explained. Meanwhile, “[w]estern countries, the Gulf states, and Turkey are supporting” rebel efforts against the Assad regime in a proxy war, putting them on the same side as, if not working together with, the terrorists now overrunning Iraq.

    Some outlets have concluded that this means “the West intentionally sponsored violent Islamist groups to destabilize Assad.

  15. #715
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Tarantula View Post
    Are you being willfully ignorant? THE UNITED STATES WAS ARMING ISIS FROM THE BEGINNING

    So no. I am not saying that because Hillary Clinton claimed credit. I am saying that because the US, helmed by Obama and Hillary at the time actively supported the creation of ISIS.
    There's a huge gulf of difference between purposefully supporting, and accidentally enabling.

    Our Middle Eastern policy has always been driven by short term solutions to what should be considered long term problems, and abundant enemy-of-my-enemy-is-my-friendism, regardless of who's in office. The fact that the CIA thought arming this current bunch of angry rebels would be a good idea to take down our latest ME enemy of the week (because this policy has worked SO well for in the past), doesn't mean they were purposefully arming Al Qaeda and ISIS once they, rather unsurprisingly, ended up with a good number of our weapons.

    When it comes to the Middle East, I tend to believe the old adage of never assuming malice when stupidity suffices is right more often than not.

  16. #716
    Read the links. The administration was well aware that the people they were supporting were affiliated with Al Queada and other extremist Wahhabist factions. They just didn't care because they wanted Assad gone badly (at the behest of Israel and Saudi Arabia).

    That falls into the category of purposefully supporting.

  17. #717
    Also I do not have the ability to look it up but there are two other considerations. First was that the emergence of ISIS was specifically identified as a potential outcome, and US support for "rebels" has continued even after the emergence of ISIS.

  18. #718
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2000
    Location: Portreath Cornwall UK
    "you might as well support me, you've got nothing to lose".

    Does the man not think at all before he speaks?

  19. #719
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Location: Canuckistan GWN
    I think he thinks only of himself.

    The Trump as Hillary's sleeper agent, theory is gaining traction but I don't think he has the humility to mock himself even a tiny bit, in the service of anything as abstract to him as an entire country.

  20. #720
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: The Plateaux Of Mirror
    Obama was integral into the creation of something that existed before he was involved in national politics? Interesting.

  21. #721
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    All these arguments that say the US or its president has created the conditions under which the entire rest of the world lives I find arrogant and self-absorbed, to say world history only revolves only around the US president and the rest of the world doesn't have any power of its own.

    ISIS is rooted in Sunnis in Iraq's north being alienated by the blatant sectarian politics of the Shia government under Maliki & his crackdowns. But accepting a theory like that would require us to say that Arabs are humans capable of having ideas & communicating them to each other, heaven forbid.

    Edit: Of course clearly the Bush II decision to invade Iraq & his administration's total fuckup with the reconstruction that led to Maliki's ascension, the surge, & the flare up of sectarian politics were all necessary conditions, more important than anything Obama added to the mix.
    Last edited by demagogue; 23rd Aug 2016 at 02:17.

  22. #722
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2010
    Location: A Former Forest
    We should not have started the war in the first place, but things were under control. The surge worked. ISIS was in fact the JV team (if they existed at all), then Obama pulled out, and with haste. He left a vacuum and a huge number of arms for the taking. The Iraq army folded in many places. He even gave a departure date to allow the insurgents to plan their attacks, and like an alarm clock going off, they quickly did. In the meantime, Hillary and Obama’s Mid-East policy of backing Arab Spring uprisings channeled money into very radical groups “that were not Assad”. The gave money to and armed ISIS in the hope they would take out Assad. This is all a well know fact. It backfired on them. One can both argue the morality of their actions and also the intelligence, or lack there of. Whatever the case, Obama and Hillary made the situation much worse. What Trump says is we should have never gone in in the first place. Nation building only works if the culture is similar and/or controllable. Neither of which exists in the mid-east with the exception of Israel.

  23. #723
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Vertigo, DragonSand, Xeen
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Moyer View Post
    Interesting.
    I will disagree with you.

  24. #724
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicker View Post
    The Trump as Hillary's sleeper agent, theory is gaining traction but I don't think he has the humility to mock himself even a tiny bit, in the service of anything as abstract to him as an entire country.
    The funniest theory I heard was that Trump's bid for the presidency started as a publicity stunt so he could gain some negotiating leverage over NBC during the run up to the next season of Celebrity Apprentice, and it ended up getting way out of hand.

  25. #725
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2016
    Location: Denver, CO
    Quote Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
    The funniest theory I heard was that Trump's bid for the presidency started as a publicity stunt so he could gain some negotiating leverage over NBC during the run up to the next season of Celebrity Apprentice, and it ended up getting way out of hand.
    Funny and likely true. Welcome to the world of postmodern paroxysm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Tarantula
    Read the links. The administration was well aware that the people they were supporting were affiliated with Al Queada and other extremist Wahhabist factions. They just didn't care because they wanted Assad gone badly (at the behest of Israel and Saudi Arabia).

    That falls into the category of purposefully supporting.
    Also I do not have the ability to look it up but there are two other considerations. First was that the emergence of ISIS was specifically identified as a potential outcome, and US support for "rebels" has continued even after the emergence of ISIS.
    There's a good BBC documentary on the complicity of the American neoconservative class and radical jihadist Islam, beginning with America's arming of Afghani fighters to fight the Soviet Union in the name of anticommunism. It all stems from this warped "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" ideology that was injected into the minds of useful idiots like Bush II by right-wing ideologues who believed in American Imperialism and feared anything that threatenned their power and superiority. I don't have time to find a link right now. But it's all been a process of brainwashing of idiot scum like Bush, Cheney, lapdogs like Tony Blair, and total bacterial slime like Rudy Guliani who don't belong on this world. Read Sheldon Wolin's book <i>Democracy Inc.</i>, it's not a waste of time.

    The neoliberals Obama and the Clintons have sold themselves out to this militarism while putting on an unconvincing guise of representing the left. They've allowed the Republican-controlled congress to bully them to no end, and of course, they're no-good corporatists themselves, selling the American people out to multinational corporations and destroying any semblence of democracy in this country. Obama's drone program in the Middle East is dispicable. Civilian casualty number are disgusting, the administration of course lies about it, and they continue to fuel jihadist terror by convincing young muslims that American empire and the Western way of life need to be erased from the Earth. Hillary is even worse. She has no regard for human life whatsoever. The ousting of Gaddafi was a corporate ruse for profit:

    Chris Hedges: The Algebra of Revolution (skip to ~19:45)

    Our "accidental" bombings of Doctors Without Borders hospitals in the Middle East are disgusting. There is no targetted effort. Our intelligence is half-assed and doesn't account for innocent human life.

    Quote Originally Posted by demagogue
    All these arguments that say the US or its president has created the conditions under which the entire rest of the world lives I find arrogant and self-absorbed, to say world history only revolves only around the US president and the rest of the world doesn't have any power of its own.

    ISIS is rooted in Sunnis in Iraq's north being alienated by the blatant sectarian politics of the Shia government under Maliki & his crackdowns. But accepting a theory like that would require us to say that Arabs are humans capable of having ideas & communicating them to each other, heaven forbid.
    They are capable of having independent ideas and communicating. They are not capable of controlling the world or any country's foreign policy. Also, people are vulnerable to ideology.

    Quote Originally Posted by bjack
    What Trump says is we should have never gone in in the first place.
    Trump says a lot of things, including contradictory things, things that make his poll numbers rise, and more recently it seems, things that intentionally make his poll numbers fall.
    Last edited by hedonicflux~~; 24th Aug 2016 at 10:56.

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