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View Poll Results: How long will Trump be President?

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  • 1 Term (4 Years)

    26 18.06%
  • 2 Terms (8 Years)

    51 35.42%
  • 1st Term Impeachment/Assassination

    50 34.72%
  • 2nd Term Impeachment/Assassination

    4 2.78%
  • I don't know what's going on!

    13 9.03%
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Thread: ✮✮✮ !Trump Dump! ✮✮✮

  1. #1226
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Land of the crazy
    That is completely irrelevant Jason. 12958 has been replaced by the updated 13526, but the definition of classification levels is exactly the same.

  2. #1227
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Moyer View Post
    It seriously takes about 3 seconds in google to know that order hasn't actually been in effect for 15 years.
    It seriously takes about 3 seconds in google to know that that was the executive order referenced on the Non-disclosure of Classified Material Agreement she signed in January of 2009. Also, about 15 seconds in google will tell you that the two executive orders are very similar.

    Edit: I don't believe that Hillary hid her email in an effort to harm the United States. I think she did it because she believes herself to be above the laws and rules that apply to little people. Nonetheless, by her crass thoughtlessness, carelessness, selfishness, and sliminess she has proven herself unworthy of holding security clearance or office. She also demonstrably lied to federal investigators in an effort to hide her malfeasance, which is a felony offense.

    Donald is also crass, selfish, slimy, narcissistic, incapable of keeping his mouth shut (he'd be real safe with classified information), and a buffoon. I think his only interest, like Clinton, is himself. Neither is worthy of the office.
    Last edited by Draxil; 29th Oct 2016 at 21:07.

  3. #1228
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    The FBI angle has already fizzled into nothing to do with Hillary. Not her emails, not her server... I do think she'll be legally harassed her entire presidency like Bill was. The GOP is probably going to lose the Senate if not collapse soon afterwards, though. So I can't see their scaremongering doing much.

    They need to get their own house in order if they're going to be anything like a functioning opposition party. But I expect a Hillary presidency to make them even more dysfunctional, not unifying at all, or at best unifying around dysfunction.

  4. #1229
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2009
    Location: The Spiraling Sea

  5. #1230
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by Draxil View Post
    She also demonstrably lied to federal investigators in an effort to hide her malfeasance, which is a felony offense.
    If it's so demonstrable, why haven't we heard about it? In fact, the director of FBI has stated that she did not lie to the FBI.
    Last edited by Starker; 30th Oct 2016 at 01:12.

  6. #1231
    Moderator
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: Wales
    I don't get it. I've read so many different articles about these flipping emails and I still don't understand what the big deal is. It all sounds a bit anal retentive. In fact, this has become a new kind of thing to say. 'It's as AR as the emails', when you want to be a bit disparaging about someone going on about green recycling bags for 10 minutes.

    I'm perfectly willing to appreciate that Clinton is as corrupt as the rest of the establishment but I just don't understand what she's done, apart from the numbers, that others haven't done without a big hoohah about it.

  7. #1232
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Well, what she did was very careless and if a government employee had done something like this, they would have been reprimanded or possibly even fired. So it's not like it's nothing. All that stuff about criminal behaviour is bollocks though. Especially if we should believe that she's a criminal mastermind who can get away with murder.

  8. #1233
    verbose douchebag
    Registered: Apr 2002
    Location: Lyon, France
    I think the reason we're hearing so much negative stuff about Clinton is that it gives Republican voters something to talk about to justify their voting for Trump, which isn't trying to find something positive to say about Trump.
    Because imagine if you had to try to justify voting for Trump based on his merits...

  9. #1234
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Quote Originally Posted by nickie View Post
    I'm perfectly willing to appreciate that Clinton is as corrupt as the rest of the establishment but I just don't understand what she's done, apart from the numbers, that others haven't done without a big hoohah about it.
    To sum it up as succinctly as possible, she sent classified documents over an unvetted line, storing them on an equally unvetted server she had set up in her house.

    Even when you discount the fact that most of the ire and rage surrounding it is histrionic showboating for the voting public, it's hard to deny what she did wasn't too terribly slick.

  10. #1235
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    You're talking about the Wikileak emails, which are an entirely separate topic from the drama that's going on right at this moment.

  11. #1236
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Naw, just two. There are the Podesta emails, which are the private correspondences amongst the Clinton campaign, and Hillary's private server she used during her tenure as Secretary of State. I believe Wikileaks has an archive of both.

    This most recently hooplah revolves around the latter, with Comey reopening the case after the FBI happened across a number of emails from Hillary's private server on another computer during a separate investigation.

    So yeah, it's complicated as shit.

  12. #1237
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
    To sum it up as succinctly as possible, she sent classified documents over an unvetted line, storing them on an equally unvetted server she had set up in her house.
    It's even less than that. There were no properly classified documents. Just some information that was determined to be minimally classified on review. Given how broadly we classify data, such a review would probably turn up a huge swathe of the government and military if they actually underwent it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
    Naw, just two. There are the Podesta emails, which are the private correspondences amongst the Clinton campaign, and Hillary's private server she used during her tenure as Secretary of State. I believe Wikileaks has an archive of both.
    Sadly, WikiLeaks does not have Hillary's private server. (I say "sadly" because I would dearly love to know what the BIG BAD classified information actually was. I'm suspecting it was something along the lines of a foreign diplomat asking if she wanted Panda Express. That's potentially terrorist actionable, man.) I also think it's kind of ironic that all the hoopla is about the server being not properly secured - meanwhile, the "secure" servers are all over WikiLeaks...

    The other big WikiLeaks Hillary dump was the DNC e-mails; basically in the same class as the Podesta ones.
    Last edited by Pyrian; 31st Oct 2016 at 00:16.

  13. #1238
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrian View Post
    It's even less than that. There were no properly classified documents. Just some information that was determined to be minimally classified on review. Given how broadly we classify data, such a review would probably turn up a huge swathe of the government and military if they actually underwent it.
    I have no doubt about that, which is why I see Hillary walking away from an indictment with nary a scratch on her, Trump presidency or not.

    The big deal isn't so much the information, regardless of how it's being played by the pundits. It's the fact she went over the State Department's heads to implement, then tried to cover it up after being discovered. It did nothing but reinforce the reasons why the voting public doesn't particularly like Hillary Clinton.

    If she came clean, and announced that, yeah, she did it, the moment it came into the public eye, the ensuing investigation would've seemed more like a routine check, and when Comey announced his assessment in July, it would've been done and over with. Any moves against her on the matter would've looked like partisan bullying against a party opposition candidate, especially when compounded with the Benghazi hearings. It probably would've done her campaign favors.

    Instead, she tried to cover her ass, and came out the other side looking self serving, furtive, and dishonest. Now that it's back in the news, it may appear to some as karma coming back for to finally bite her.

    For someone who's been in politics as long as she has, she should very well know that plausible deniability only works when you can plausibly deny something that can be denied plausibly later.

  14. #1239
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    Colin Powell, her predecessor (and Republican), was giving her notes how to set up a private server.

    The selective rage is so manufactured it's hard for me to grok how it doesn't collapse under its own cognitive dissonace.

    Of course the dumbest part is that the last thing the GOP ragemongers actually care about is securing classified emails, embassy security, women's security in bathrooms, respecting the Bernie Bros vote, etc, all the things at the root of their rage against Hillary. Because if they really cared about those things they'd behave much differently. But this point is so transparent and it's so dumb to have to even point it out that it's really not worth comment. That's one reason this fiasco of an election is so easy to dismiss with an eyeroll with a clear conscience.

  15. #1240
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
    It's the fact she went over the State Department's heads to implement...
    She was literally the duly confirmed head of the State Department - she was over their heads.

    Quote Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
    ...then tried to cover it up after being discovered.
    I've heard very little about that. Given the number of people that have gone to jail not for crimes committed, but for coverups (Martha Stewart anyone?), I would've expected to hear more?

  16. #1241
    Member
    Registered: Jun 1999
    Location: Procrastination, Australia
    Quote Originally Posted by nickie View Post
    I don't get it. I've read so many different articles about these flipping emails and I still don't understand what the big deal is. It all sounds a bit anal retentive. In fact, this has become a new kind of thing to say. 'It's as AR as the emails', when you want to be a bit disparaging about someone going on about green recycling bags for 10 minutes.

    I'm perfectly willing to appreciate that Clinton is as corrupt as the rest of the establishment but I just don't understand what she's done, apart from the numbers, that others haven't done without a big hoohah about it.
    As another foreign devil I tend to agree.
    My overriding impression in all my learnin' is that above a certain level US government is a bit of an ad hoc crap shoot a lot of the time and pretty much always has been. Sack everybody, install your own people, wear all the hats, wear no hats, if it's not in the constitution create and destroy headwear virtually at will! This is what Makes America Great®
    But email server admin protocol? Holy shit, that's holy writ etched in Washington's false teeth. That and sheer grit kept the men alive at Valley Forge, or whatever.

    (and no, if it was Bush I wouldn't give a shit either)

  17. #1242
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrian View Post
    She was literally the duly confirmed head of the State Department - she was over their heads.
    I believe she still has to contact the appropriate people, so they can vet and verify her personal means of communication are up to code. A lot of this drama stems from the fact she apparently neglected to do this, opting instead for her neighbor's apparently super smart kid for security (if I remember the story correctly), bypassing department IT entirely.

    I've heard very little about that. Given the number of people that have gone to jail not for crimes committed, but for coverups (Martha Stewart anyone?), I would've expected to hear more?
    Well, not so much a coverup as much as lying to the public (though not the FBI, which really would've gotten her put out to dry) when this first hit the airwaves, and coming up with a few dozen lame excuses for everyone to munch on in the interim. This isn't criminal, and it's not something other politicians haven't done a thousand times before themselves, but in the end, that does't matter. Trying to deny the obvious only served to hand a few nits for the Republicans to hang her on in front of everyone, and hang her on them they did.

    Dema is correct in assuming that the vast majority of all this is manufactured outrage, but she's far from being entirely innocent in the matter. Hillary all but handed them the rope they're now using to hang her with.

  18. #1243
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2009
    Location: The Spiraling Sea


    FBI Agents to Examine 650,000 Emails on Anthony Weiner’s Computer

    Investigators found 650,000 emails on a laptop that they believe was used by former Rep. Anthony Weiner and his estranged wife Huma Abedin, a close Clinton aide, and underlying metadata suggests thousands of those messages could have been sent to or from the private server that Mrs. Clinton used while she was secretary of state, according to people familiar with the matter.

    Clinton Foundation FBI Investigation Confirmed By Former Assistant FBI Director...


  19. #1244
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2002
    Location: 1, Rotation: 0
    Dude, we know.

  20. #1245
    is Best Pony
    Registered: Nov 2002
    Location: The magical land of Equestria
    So it includes thousands of emails that might have been sent from Hillary's server and that might be different from the ones the FBI have already checked and which might have classified information on them?

  21. #1246
    Moderator
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: Wales
    Thanks for the explanations and elucidations, guys. It's a relief to know that what I understood to be trueish is, in fact, trueish: the US is barking.

  22. #1247
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Land of the crazy
    I think Clinton scandal denial is the Democrat equivalent of climate change denial.

    First, she broke federal policy by using private email. Knowingly and willingly and against advice, while reinforcing the same policy on her department's staff. And yes, Powell used private email too, but his use predated the department policy. And no, he wasn't "giving her notes how to set up a private server." He didn't use a private server (he was on AOL), and he wasn't her predecessor (that would be Rice). And as far as I have heard, there are no accusations that he lied to anybody about it or tried to cover anything up or sent or received classified information. His wrong was that he failed to turn over archives of his emails when he left office, so the State Dept had to chase him down after.

    So why is this a BIG THING? It's hard to believe I have to explain it. The vast majority of internal government business is conducted via email. It's the primary means of communication. And now that every major nation has an offensive cyber capability in its arsenal, email is a ripe target for spying. Using an unsecured private server to host department email is like giving it away. To make it even worse, in the process of transferring her emails from the server in her residence to a hosting company, they went through an unsecured laptop, lost thumb drive, and a private Gmail account.

    And then there are the classified emails. The government normally takes classified information found on unclassified systems pretty seriously. When a "spill" of classified information happens, all the unclassified systems that it touched get quarantined and cleaned. And if it happened due to negligence, people get disciplined or lose their jobs depending on the severity. So people who protect classified information as part of their hob are rightly upset with her blase attitude about it.

    Another thing that really pisses people off is her shifting story. At one point, Hillary tried to tell us there was no classified information in her emails. At another point she said she never sent anything classified. Then she said she none of the information was classified at the time it was sent. Then she said none of the information she sent or received was marked classified. The final story is that none of the classified information she sent or received was properly marked (missing overall classification markings). So now we know that she did send and receive classified information, and some of it was classified at the time it was sent, and some of it was even portion marked. So now she expects us to believe that someone who handled classified information all the time couldn't recognize a portion mark.

    And then there is the cover-up. Her email records are required to be archived and retained in the National Archives by the Federal Records Act. She fought through the courts to avoid turning them over and lost. She went through her email selectively and only turned over a portion of the emails, claiming the rest were private. She also had them printed and delivered in printed form rather than electronically, presumably to impede anyone who wanted to search them. She claimed that was required by the Federal Records Act, but that is not true. A subpoena was issued asking for her emails to be retained and the servers to be turned over, and while she was facing the subpoena, the computers were wiped with drive cleaner software by an unnamed Platte River Networks staffer. Of course she feigned ignorance about that, "What? Like with a cloth?", and also falsely claimed the emails were deleted before the subpoena.

    The FBI was able to recover a good portion of the deleted emails from an older online backup her staff was unaware of, and from email accounts of people at State she sent & received email with. In these recovered emails which Hillary had not turned over because they were claimed to be private, the FBI found plenty of work related emails and emails containing classified information.

    You don't need to read right-wing web sites to find out about this stuff. All of this can be confirmed by reading the FBI files on the case and other reputable sources.

    In my opinion, Hillary and her staff are guilty of not following her own department's email policy, mishandling classified information, demonstrating disregard for national security, breaking the Federal Records Act, breaking the Freedom of Information Act, obstructing justice by deleting evidence under subpoena, and lying to us about it at every opportunity.

    And then there is the Clinton Foundation and the quid pro quo foreign donations while she was head of State, all the scandals during the Clinton administration, and Whitewater where she also obstructed the investigation by stealing and hiding records.
    She is dirty, really dirty.

    Of course, most Democrats prefer to cover their ears and sing "la, la, la" and pretend there's nothing to see here. It's just a vast right-wing conspiracy, right?

  23. #1248
    Quote Originally Posted by heywood View Post
    That is completely irrelevant Jason. 12958 has been replaced by the updated 13526, but the definition of classification levels is exactly the same.
    None of you all have experience handling US Government. I do...albeit not at the level of classification Hillary did.

    Even with a basic "Secret" clearance doing exactly what Hillary did (emailing the contents of classified reports over the open internet) would land you in jail.

    You read that correctly. Let's say I set up a POP email server using a spare desktop in my apartment, and then used that instead of my official .mil email for conversations that included information quoted from reports with a Secret classification (well below the TS//SCI classification Hillary was sending) over that email server.

    I would be in PRISON for that. Nobody here has argued with me over that fact and your arguments basically amount to rationalizing that it's OK for rules to not apply to someone just because they're a high ranking Democrat.

    Colin Powell, her predecessor (and Republican), was giving her notes how to set up a private server.

    The selective rage is so manufactured it's hard for me to grok how it doesn't collapse under its own cognitive dissonace.
    Funny you talk about about cognitive dissonance.

    Some of Powell's emails were also leaked and it is NOT an equivalence in any way shape or form. Powell used his classified email system for all classified business, and a personal email on a private server (owned by a national service provider, NOT a personal server in a bathroom) for his personal business. What he did is in accordance with correct procedure. The correct procedure is that information that originates on classified networks stays on classified networks, unclassified files (not necessarily information) stays on unclassified systems, and personal data/files/information stays off work networks entirely.


    That said the emails themselves are trivial. What's far more important is the foundation investigation and the now strong evidence that it was a racketeering organization.
    Last edited by Tony_Tarantula; 31st Oct 2016 at 10:26.

  24. #1249
    Moderator
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: Wales
    That's also very nicely clear and understandable as usual, heywood. Is anyone really denying she's a dodgy geezer and glossing over it in the same way Trump is a moral bankrupt but that is also glossed over by the respective supporters. (That's a horrible sentence, sorry)

    Federal policy - is that law or best practice? I'm kind of stuck wondering what I think are reputable sources. I don't count 'the Law' as a reputable source but I know I have a slightly jaundiced view of our (UK) forces of law and order.

    I did just hear today that it is actually a Democrat conspiracy to get rid of Hillary and put someone else in to stand.

    Edit. I forgot that I meant to ask what all Clinton's shenanigans were in aid of. To hide what? Because as I think I understand correctly, she didn't break a law.

  25. #1250
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2000
    Location: Portreath Cornwall UK
    Thanks for the synopsis heywood. Did Hillary Clinton send, receive, hide and delete this electronic information herself or was is all done in her name by staff?

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