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View Poll Results: How long will Trump be President?

Voters
144. You may not vote on this poll
  • 1 Term (4 Years)

    26 18.06%
  • 2 Terms (8 Years)

    51 35.42%
  • 1st Term Impeachment/Assassination

    50 34.72%
  • 2nd Term Impeachment/Assassination

    4 2.78%
  • I don't know what's going on!

    13 9.03%
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Thread: ✮✮✮ !Trump Dump! ✮✮✮

  1. #1251
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Tarantula View Post
    None of you all have experience handling US Government. I do...albeit not at the level of classification Hillary did.

    Even with a basic "Secret" clearance doing exactly what Hillary did (emailing the contents of classified reports over the open internet) would land you in jail.

    You read that correctly. Let's say I set up a POP email server using a spare desktop in my apartment, and then used that instead of my official .mil email for conversations that included information quoted from reports with a Secret classification (well below the TS//SCI classification Hillary was sending) over that email server.

    I would be in PRISON for that. Nobody here has argued with me over that fact and your arguments basically amount to rationalizing that it's OK for rules to not apply to someone just because they're a high ranking Democrat.
    Yeah, and my uncle works for Nintendo... Suddenly everyone seems to be an expert on US law, even though Comey testified that nobody would be prosecuted for the things Clinton did, even if they were an employee of the FBI, and if they had left the FBI, they would face no other consequences than severely damaged prospects of being rehired. In that hearing Comey (who actually was a lawyer) also explained multiple times why this was different from cases like David Petraeus (pronounced betray-us).
    Last edited by Starker; 31st Oct 2016 at 12:04.

  2. #1252
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    George W Bush set the world on fire by starting his dumb war in Iraq. 911 happened under GW Bush's watch. Half the world had an economic meltdown in 2007/2008 because of GW Bush's policies. US Debt rose like crazy.

    And people are whining about a few emails ?

    Republicans are the sorest losers I've ever seen. Ever.

    Oh wait, Benghazi !

  3. #1253
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Quote Originally Posted by Starker View Post
    In that hearing Comey (who actually was a lawyer) also explained multiple times why this was different from cases like David Petraeus (pronounced betray-us).
    Yup, though it should be noted that even Petraeus, who knowingly leaked classified information, then lied to the FBI about it under oath, was able to easily net a relatively light plea deal, since they weren't entirely sure they could get a harsher sentence to stick.

    What Hillary engaged in wasn't quite so blatant and severe, but it could still be considered a mishandling of classified information.

  4. #1254
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2006
    Location: Washington DC
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Tarantula View Post
    None of you all have experience handling US Government.
    Hi, I do. Starker is correct in his quote of Comey. Contrary to your example, your unsecure email server would likely not result in your imprisonment. Immediate arrest, certainly. Interrogation, probably. Court process, formal charges, conviction? Nah. Unless the court could demonstrate that you exfiltrated classified information through either gross negligence or deliberate intent to harm the United States, you wouldn't be charged under espionage law and consequently the worst you would face would be getting the boot and a clearance revocation. And yes, that holds true for TS//SCI (and any specific compartments you care to mention).

    Comey pretty neatly laid out why Clinton's offenses didn't meet either of those two tests- it wasn't 'gross negligence' for an Original Classification Authority to be in possession of retroactively-marked information, since OCAs routinely receive information (eg, from foreign heads of state) that is classified after the fact, nor does having a handful of wrongly-marked information mostly sent by others constitute gross negligence. Her server had content it shouldn't have had, but it wasn't like she accidentally took home a TS//SCI server chock-full of defense data. And if they couldn't demonstrate intent to damage the United States, then it wouldn't satisfy that criterion for espionage either.

    I was initially anticipating some legal consequences for Clinton, but after reading Comey's explanation I have to say it's consistent with national security policy. She played fast and loose with the rules, lied about it, and tried to cover up her mistakes, and all of that is scummy as hell- but there's no evidence that she took home briefcases full of defense plans or that she sent classified info to China, so no felony was committed. That's not saying she did nothing wrong (again, Comey was very clear about this), just that what occurred wasn't treason. She mishandled classified information in a way that would normally result in a federal employee being reprimanded or fired, but obviously she doesn't work for State anymore- so what are they supposed to do?

  5. #1255
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Quote Originally Posted by nickie View Post
    Thanks for the explanations and elucidations, guys. It's a relief to know that what I understood to be trueish is, in fact, trueish: the US is barking.
    We haven't exactly been at our shining, stable best this year, no.

    Though the scandals keep on coming! Thanks to Wikileaks, we're now finding out that Donna Brazile fed Clinton debate questions in advance, allowing her to better prepare for her debate against Bernie Sanders! OMG!



    Government corrupt at its absolute worst. The horror. Lock Her Up!

  6. #1256
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Land of the crazy
    Quote Originally Posted by nickie View Post
    That's also very nicely clear and understandable as usual, heywood. Is anyone really denying she's a dodgy geezer and glossing over it in the same way Trump is a moral bankrupt but that is also glossed over by the respective supporters. (That's a horrible sentence, sorry)

    Federal policy - is that law or best practice? I'm kind of stuck wondering what I think are reputable sources. I don't count 'the Law' as a reputable source but I know I have a slightly jaundiced view of our (UK) forces of law and order.

    I did just hear today that it is actually a Democrat conspiracy to get rid of Hillary and put someone else in to stand.

    Edit. I forgot that I meant to ask what all Clinton's shenanigans were in aid of. To hide what? Because as I think I understand correctly, she didn't break a law.
    nickie,

    I'm no fan of Trump either. I voted for Bernie. I have heard Republicans making excuses for Trump, but he is also being called out by a lot of Republican party leaders. When he lies and says the women accusing him of harassment are part of a conspiracy, his party doesn't stand behind it the way the Democratic party stands behind Clinton's lies. And the press isn't cutting him any breaks any longer like they did in the primaries. I've been listening to the majority of Democrats make excuses and gloss over the Clintons' law breaking and misdeeds for 24 years now and I just don't get it. People don't want to hear it, and if they're forced to hear they don't want to believe it. That's why I liken it to climate change denial.

    Also, I'm pretty sure she did break the law. FBI chief Comey addressed mishandling of classified material and said there wasn't a winnable case because they couldn't show intent on her part, just carelessness. But she also failed to comply with the Federal Records Act and FOIA, and could have been prosecuted for that once it was discovered that she didn't turn over all the work related emails. She and/or her aides could also have been prosecuted for obstruction, for deleting emails and wiping servers that were under subpoena. Comey hasn't really addressed those points, but I'm sure you'll hear more because the Republicans aren't just going to let it drop. I suspect the poor sap at PRN who did the wipe may end up as the fall guy.

    Regarding your last question, you have to start with her motivation for keeping a private email server in the first place. The previous Clinton administration fought to exclude emails from the Federal Records Act and Freedom of Information Act. They were opposed to having day to day communication in the public record. And obviously she was worried about people using FOIA requests to dig up dirt on her when she ran for President again. She believed that because she personally owned the email account and equipment, that her emails were hers and not part of the public record. And because she had the servers in her possession, it also made it easy for her to doctor the public record (which is unproven but I suspect it likely happened) or withhold emails from the public record (which definitely did happen).

    She also has a history of hiding stuff. During the Whitewater investigation, she hid subpoenad Rose Law records and claimed they were lost (found years later in her private quarters by a White House worker). Also during the Whitewater investigation, she stole Vince Foster's Whitewater records from his apartment the day he committed suicide. I even read a report about ~5 years ago about a hard drive of related Clinton files suspiciously going missing from the National Archives. So the email server scandal is not out of character for the Clintons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Medlar View Post
    Thanks for the synopsis heywood. Did Hillary Clinton send, receive, hide and delete this electronic information herself or was is all done in her name by staff?
    Medlar,

    Hillary personally did the sending & receiving. Her aides deleted the emails that she didn't turn over. And an unnamed employee of Platte River Networks did the wipe job. It's unclear just how hands-on she was in the process of selecting which emails to turn over and which to withhold as "private".

    Quote Originally Posted by Gryzemuis View Post
    Oh wait, Benghazi !
    I don't get the Benghazi thing either. I can't stand Hillary, and I was against getting involved in the Libyan civil war, but as far as I was able to determine she did nothing wrong there beyond making a bad job decision. I don't understand what the Republicans think they have on her with Benghazi.
    Last edited by heywood; 31st Oct 2016 at 14:44.

  7. #1257
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Quote Originally Posted by heywood View Post
    But she also failed to comply with the Federal Records Act and FOIA, and could have been prosecuted for that once it was discovered that she didn't turn over all the work related emails.
    She could be slammed for the former, but not the latter. The FOIA only concerns documents that have been placed in official archives, and doesn't have any provisions for people who try to circumvent it by keeping it out of the archives altogether.

    That's one thing you can say about the Clintons. They may not ever outright break the law, but they know exactly where that line is, and how to put but a single toe over it to get what they want.

  8. #1258
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: The Land of Make Believe
    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
    So it includes thousands of emails that might have been sent from Hillary's server and that might be different from the ones the FBI have already checked and which might have classified information on them?
    Yes, I think you'll find that totally justifies electing a racist sex offending maniac instead.

  9. #1259
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: The Plateaux Of Mirror
    Quote Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
    That's one thing you can say about the Clintons. They may not ever outright break the law, but they know exactly where that line is, and how to put but a single toe over it to get what they want.
    So basically they're driving 62 in a 55 zone. Like any sensible person.

  10. #1260
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Land of the crazy
    It is possible to be critical of both candidates SD

  11. #1261
    Moderator
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: Wales
    I didn't assume you were a fan of Trump, heywood, I've always thought of you as a rational human being.

    So Clinton has a history of sailing very close to the wind which could be suspicious in itself. I can see a case "to exclude emails from the Federal Records Act and Freedom of Information Act. They were opposed to having day to day communication in the public record." It must be a nightmare to have to think before writing a single word just in case it jumps up and bites you in the arse. I can also see a case for the opposite in terms of satisfying public accountability. Traditional fence sitter.

    I can see why she might not be prosecuted. Our Crown Prosecution Service make decisions not to prosecute on a daily basis based on whether they think they can win. We might rant about it but we understand it - at least I do. I do understand better why people are upset about her behaviour.

    I don't consider Trump to be morally bankrupt because of the allegations against him from women. I don't know if there's any real evidence about that yet. I consider him morally corrupt because he (as far as I understand it) has admitted using whatever loopholes are available to declare various companies bankrupt, and bragged about it being sound business practice (which might well have been the case) and whatever loopholes are available to avoid paying taxes. These two things may well be legal, but IMO, corrupt.

    Having read one or two articles this afternoon by someone I used to admire, I also understand more about why Trump might be appealing - as long as you close your eyes and don't listen to anything he says.

    How the hell did your country ever get into this terrible situation. I really feel for those of you who are between the devil and the deep blue sea (apologies for cliche). You're all still crazy though.

  12. #1262
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Moyer View Post
    So basically they're driving 62 in a 55 zone. Like any sensible person.
    It's one thing when you and I do it it, another thing entirely when the people who write the laws do it.

    I won't say she's a terrible person, she needs to go to jail, and blah blah blah. She's not, and she doesn't. But Hillary has earned her reputation, and it's this reputation that's served to be her greatest detriment this election season.

    Really, if there's one thing all this controversy and drama has illustrated, it's that the people we've always assumed held themselves to a higher standard really aren't any better than the rest of us, and we're not responding to this revelation all too well.

  13. #1263
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Quote Originally Posted by nickie View Post
    You're all still crazy though.
    I think the worst part of it is that, when you get right down to it, we really don't have anyone else to blame for our craziness but ourselves.

    That old chestnut about peoples in democracies getting the government they deserve rings especially true this year.

  14. #1264
    verbose douchebag
    Registered: Apr 2002
    Location: Lyon, France
    I still can't get over the fact that Donald Trump is running for president. It's hilarious, terrifying and shameful all at once.
    I keep thinking it has to be a joke.

  15. #1265
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2009
    Location: The Spiraling Sea
    Quote Originally Posted by nickie View Post
    I'm perfectly willing to appreciate that Clinton is as corrupt as the rest of the establishment but I just don't understand what she's done, apart from the numbers, that others haven't done without a big hoohah about it.
    With this latest bombshell, FBI Director Comey has discovered new evidence which will almost certainly lead to the prosecution of Clinton, for either illegal misconduct regarding the handling of classified information, illegal operations concerning the Clinton Foundation, or both.

    Under these circumstances, Director Comey would have never re-opened the case if there wasn't a critical piece of damning evidence involved.

    Expect a public confirmation of this, either before or after the election.

  16. #1266
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by nickie View Post
    I don't consider Trump to be morally bankrupt because of the allegations against him from women. I don't know if there's any real evidence about that yet.
    There is no real evidence, but quite a lot of women, from different countries even, keep coming forward and said that he had harassed them at one point or another. I don't know how likely it is that they are all paid off or doing it for some hope of personal gain or publicity, especially as dear Donald has threatened to sue every single woman who accuses him of sexual misconduct.

  17. #1267
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2009
    Location: The Spiraling Sea
    Quote Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
    Though the scandals keep on coming! Thanks to Wikileaks, we're now finding out that Donna Brazile fed Clinton debate questions in advance, allowing her to better prepare for her debate against Bernie Sanders!

    Good work, Renz!...


    >>>>> BREAKING NEWS <<<<<

    ...Donna Brazile Fired at CNN for Leaking Debate Questions to Clinton...




    Oh Hillary, your unethical decision to accept those questions is very revealing!

  18. #1268
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    These scandals are pathetic. Did anybody think Flint wasn't going to end up in a debate somewhere? Republicans made systematic torture a U.S. policy, and Trump wants to bring that back. Utterly despicable on a scale completely different from things like "underling didn't report being told the sky is blue" or "didn't comport with department regulations".

  19. #1269
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2002
    Location: Pacific Northwest
    Kaine seems like a level-headed guy, so if Clinton does in fact get hauled to court I guess we'll be okay?

  20. #1270
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Location: Canuckistan GWN
    Quote Originally Posted by Slasher View Post
    Kaine seems like a level-headed guy, so if Clinton does in fact get hauled to court I guess we'll be okay?
    How would he stack up against Pence, commanding the Armies Of The New South?

  21. #1271
    verbose douchebag
    Registered: Apr 2002
    Location: Lyon, France
    Hilary may have accepted debate tips in advance huh? Seems pretty unethical.
    I guess we'll see if that makes her the most evil candidate after Trump is cleared of raping a 13 year old...

  22. #1272
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Land of the crazy
    Quote Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
    I think the worst part of it is that, when you get right down to it, we really don't have anyone else to blame for our craziness but ourselves.

    That old chestnut about peoples in democracies getting the government they deserve rings especially true this year.
    QFT indeed. The chickens are coming home to roost in both parties.

    This year I feel like there is a large group of people who normally don't vote, or don't bother to vote in primaries, who are wondering what the hell happened and how did we get these candidates. Hopefully they will remember next time.

  23. #1273
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2002
    Location: melon labneh
    So as a foreigner with limited knowledge of American politics, as a foreigner fed by biased media like everyone else, my impression is that while Trump is an all-round asshole, Clinton may have done two things that make her much worse in my eyes, and I would like to know what the consensus/state of affairs on these two topics is:

    • Declaring she wants a no-fly zone over Syria, therefore reinstating a cold-war framework with Russia (as I doubt she would actually go to war with them);
    • Stealing Bernie Sanders' place through media manipulation and maybe(?) rigging the Democratic National Committe.

    Care to enlighten me? Apologies about not following the whole thing really closely.
    And about that second point, please refrain from arguments such as: "they all do it" because whoever is involved in such activities should systematically be ineligible in my opinion.

  24. #1274
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2006
    Location: Washington DC
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrian View Post
    Did anybody think Flint wasn't going to end up in a debate somewhere?
    That's missing the forest for the trees. I don't know if Brazile was acting on her own or with the consent of her superiors, but either way one of the biggest mainstream media organizations was directly helping Clinton win the primary. It may not mean all that much in the grand scheme of things, but it's another piece of evidence on the pile indicating that Clinton was given a leg up in the primary. What's done is done, but many Democrats seem entirely unwilling to even acknowledge that there was bias in the primaries, let alone hold the DNC accountable for it and demand reform.

    And frankly, it's amusing in a very sad way that the person chosen as interim DNC chair- to replace a woman who resigned after it was revealed she had used her position to favor the Clinton campaign- is in turn someone who used her position to favor the Clinton campaign.

    Quote Originally Posted by faetal View Post
    Hilary may have accepted debate tips in advance huh? Seems pretty unethical.
    I guess we'll see if that makes her the most evil candidate after Trump is cleared of raping a 13 year old...
    I find it really disappointing that no matter what evidence is presented against Clinton, the response is 'still better than Trump'. I don't mean to pick on you specifically faetal since I hear it from a lot of people, it's just extremely frustrating to me to engage with Democrats who seamlessly transition from 'Hillary did nothing wrong' to 'Well, she's still better than Trump' to excuse any legitimate faults. Based on current predictions, unless something huge happens this is the person we're going to be stuck with as president for the next four years, and the character behind these scandals will remain long after the threat of a Trump presidency stops being a way to excuse her flaws.

  25. #1275
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: The Land of Make Believe
    Quote Originally Posted by catbarf View Post
    I find it really disappointing that no matter what evidence is presented against Clinton, the response is 'still better than Trump'.
    You're always going to get that when you're offered a binary choice.

    "Hey, this can of soda has 11 grams of sugar, that's bad for me"
    "Would sir prefer this bucket of tramp's piss?"
    "I think I'll stick with the soda."

    So you see, just because we prefer sugary drinks to vagrants' urine, does not mean we are blind to the fact that sugar can do us harm. But at the end of the day, the other option is a bucket of tramp's piss.

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