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View Poll Results: How long will Trump be President?

Voters
144. You may not vote on this poll
  • 1 Term (4 Years)

    26 18.06%
  • 2 Terms (8 Years)

    51 35.42%
  • 1st Term Impeachment/Assassination

    50 34.72%
  • 2nd Term Impeachment/Assassination

    4 2.78%
  • I don't know what's going on!

    13 9.03%

Thread: ✮✮✮ !Trump Dump! ✮✮✮

  1. #12851
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    Question: how many USD does a single person pay per month for a decent/basic health-care insurance ? Or if the employer pays for it, how much does the employer pay ? How much do you pay for a family of 4 (2 adults, 2 children under 18) ?

  2. #12852
    BANNED
    Registered: Nov 2016
    Location: Trollinus Maximus
    love how you guys just overlook the shit that suits you.

    again. if you are going to play the "they pay taxes too" then WHY isn't EVERYONE who pays damn taxes getting "free" HC?
    and yes I did mention stupid CA liberals..............

  3. #12853
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Quote Originally Posted by Gryzemuis View Post
    Question: how many USD does a single person pay per month for a decent/basic health-care insurance ? Or if the employer pays for it, how much does the employer pay ? How much do you pay for a family of 4 (2 adults, 2 children under 18) ?
    It can vary wildly, but I'd say it costs about $1,200 a month for a family of 4 out of pocket. Usually your employer pays X amount per month, you contribute Y amount, and then you have co-pays and premiums on top of that, depending on the plan. I vaguely recall reading that in 2018, the cost of insuring your average family would cost around $30,000 altogether per year.

    And then there's the fun of dealing with insurance companies when they fuck something up. Like the time my dad had to get a tooth pulled. His dentist accidentally marked the tooth as another one pulled previously, and the insurance provider refused to pay for it, stating they're not paying for the same tooth twice. He ended up being charged something like $2000 for the error.

    edit: and mom's constant battles with her insurance after her heart attack. Those people seem hellbent on finding ways to deny payments.

  4. #12854
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Quote Originally Posted by jkcerda View Post
    love how you guys just overlook the shit that suits you.

    again. if you are going to play the "they pay taxes too" then WHY isn't EVERYONE who pays damn taxes getting "free" HC?
    and yes I did mention stupid CA liberals..............
    I doubt CA liberals are saying that the illegals should have special privileges than your average citizen doesn't. They're probably talking more about something they may implement if a single payer system comes to pass, not something they're doing now.

  5. #12855
    BANNED
    Registered: Nov 2016
    Location: Trollinus Maximus
    Quote Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
    I doubt CA liberals are saying that the illegals should have special privileges than your average citizen doesn't. They're probably talking more about something they may implement if a single payer system comes to pass, not something they're doing now.
    did you miss the links I posted?

  6. #12856
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Apparently. Link again.

  7. #12857
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
    I doubt CA liberals are saying that the illegals should have special privileges than your average citizen doesn't.
    I guess the kerfuffle is about the proposal to extend Medi-Cal to undocumented senior citizens? Note that U.S. senior citizens already get Medicare (and other programs as applicable). So I don't see any obvious evidence that they're proposed to be getting something citizens don't.

    https://thehill.com/changing-america...mented-seniors

  8. #12858
    BANNED
    Registered: Nov 2016
    Location: Trollinus Maximus
    Quote Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
    Apparently. Link again.

    https://www.latimes.com/business/sto...ance-penalties
    Californians, be warned: A new state law could make you liable for a hefty tax penalty if you do not have health insurance next year and beyond.
    https://www.npr.org/2019/07/10/74014...ted-immigrants
    California has become the first state in the country to offer government-subsidized health benefits to young adults living in the U.S. illegally.

    The measure signed by Gov. Gavin Newsom on Tuesday extends coverage to low-income, undocumented adults ages 25 and younger for the state's Medicaid program.

  9. #12859
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    As long as it's not extra care provided specifically to them at the expense of native and naturalized citizens, then I'd say that's entirely on California. Per the article, it's only costing the state an extra $125 million, which is a drop in the bucket compared to the rest of California's budget. I could understand why some people would be peeved about it, since it could serve as an incentive to hop the border for an easier retirement, giving them the same benefits as someone who's worked and lived in the state all their life, but...eh.

    Overall, I see it less as a fiscal issue, more as an ideological one. Something that may warrant bitching about, but it isn't breaking the bank, or depriving anyone else of anything.

  10. #12860
    BANNED
    Registered: Nov 2016
    Location: Trollinus Maximus
    Quote Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
    As long as it's not extra care provided specifically to them at the expense of native and naturalized citizens, then I'd say that's entirely on California. Per the article, it's only costing the state an extra $125 million, which is a drop in the bucket compared to the rest of California's budget. I could understand why some people would be peeved about it, since it could serve as an incentive to hop the border for an easier retirement, giving them the same benefits as someone who's worked and lived in the state all their life, but...eh.

    Overall, I see it less as a fiscal issue, more as an ideological one. Something that may warrant bitching about, but it isn't breaking the bank, or depriving anyone else of anything.
    we pay the highest taxes in the nation...............
    why the fuck are illegals getting free shit while legal citizens are fined?
    and it IS "extra care" since many legal citizens in CA don't have the damn insurance.
    the level of stupid liberals in CA is too damn high

  11. #12861
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Quote Originally Posted by jkcerda View Post
    we pay the highest taxes in the nation...............
    why the fuck are illegals getting free shit while legal citizens are fined?
    and it IS "extra care" since many legal citizens in CA don't have the damn insurance.
    the level of stupid liberals in CA is too damn high
    For them to get healthcare, they have to be registered as tax payers by the state, right? Which means they can't just show up, and say they want free healthcare, correct?

    Given the low amount of money spent to cover these people, I'm assuming you can't just show up, and get free healthcare. There's probably some criteria that has to be met before you're allowed access.

    SO OFF TO THE INTERNET I GO!
    Last edited by Renzatic; 12th Feb 2020 at 18:43.

  12. #12862
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
    It can vary wildly, but I'd say it costs about $1,200 a month for a family of 4 out of pocket. Usually your employer pays X amount per month, you contribute Y amount, and then you have co-pays and premiums on top of that, depending on the plan. I vaguely recall reading that in 2018, the cost of insuring your average family would cost around $30,000 altogether per year.
    For comparison: in NL everybody is obliged to buy health-insurance from a private company. We've got 20-30 companies to chose from (my guess). If you don't do this, you can be fined (large fines, but I have never heard of any who had to pay one). Often the employer pays, or adds the money to your salary for you to pay. The insurance companies are obliged (by law) to offer a base-package for a certain price. (All insurance companies are within 10% of each other on price). You can get extra insurance if you want to (dentist, glasses, etc, for 20-50 euros max extra). I got a base insurance, it's good enough, I think. Of course we have problems with our health system (e.g. waiting-lists). But everyone gets coverage, everyone gets helped. I've never heard of disputes with insurance companies and their customers (again: they are obliged to cover almost everything, also pre-conditions).

    I pay a little under 100 euros per month for one person. I think 10 years ago the price was 80 euros per month.

    I just looked it up. A family of 4 (2 adults, 2 kids) pays 385 euros per month. That surprised me. Before we had this system (20 years now ?), we had a system where 1) everyone under average annual salary was insured in a semi-government-run single-payer system. And everyone above average salary had to get private insurance. I think in that system the "breadwinner" of a family could insure his/her significant other and kids for just a little extra money. In other words: families were heavily subsidized. In the current system, it seems families have to pay full price. Good, I like that. (In NL single people are relatively much heavier taxed than families or two-income households. Fuck Christians).
    Last edited by Gryzemuis; 12th Feb 2020 at 18:57.

  13. #12863
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    So basically the Netherlands are using a system not vastly dissimilar to the ACA, except it's managed better? Well, fuck us.

    And JK: It does seem they're charging a penalty to uninsured citizens specifically to cover the costs for this program, so yeah, that's incredibly unfair. It's a knee jerk reaction to counter Trump's knee jerk reactions on immigration. They're literally taking from people in need to cover other people in need simply so they can say they're covering illegal immigrants, and it ultimately won't accomplish anything except make people angry.

    So, you're right.

  14. #12864
    BANNED
    Registered: Nov 2016
    Location: Trollinus Maximus
    Quote Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
    So basically the Netherlands are using a system not vastly dissimilar to the ACA, except it's managed better? Well, fuck us.

    And JK: It does seem they're charging a penalty to uninsured citizens specifically to cover the costs for this program, so yeah, that's incredibly unfair. It's a knee jerk reaction to counter Trump's knee jerk reactions on immigration. They're literally taking from people in need to cover other people in need simply so they can say they're covering illegal immigrants, and it ultimately won't accomplish anything except make people angry.

    So, you're right.
    I’m always right .

  15. #12865
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    And here you are, already letting it go to your head. Way to ruin the fun, JK. Geez.

  16. #12866
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    So California is giving health care to young people who can't afford it, and it includes illegal immigrants? Good. That's the type of investment that pays a lot of dividends in the future.

  17. #12867
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    The problem is that it enforces a penalty for one group who doesn't have insurance, while allowing another access without any overhead. Providing healthcare to those who can't afford it is all well and good, but that does come across as a bit unfair.

    This is America, damnit! Everyone deserves to suffer!

  18. #12868
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Yes, I know. There's a famous experiment where a researcher gives one monkey a grape for a task and the other monkey a cucumber, and the monkey who gets the cucumber flips out at the other monkey, outraged about the perceived injustice. It doesn't bother him at all that the researcher has a whole bowl of those grapes. In our monkey brains too the bigger problem is always someone of equal or lower status getting something you don't think they deserve and the fear of losing out on something always looms bigger than the prospect of gaining something.

    But in this case it's not true, is it? Poor immigrants and poor citizens alike get the free health care. As for undocumented immigrants not having to pay the penalty, well, they also don't get the benefits that come with citizenship.

    It's funny. You exploit their labour for great gain, they pay 3 billion in taxes, but the moment their children get free health care for a fraction of a fraction of the amount they pay in, it's an outrage.

  19. #12869
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Land of the crazy
    Quote Originally Posted by Gryzemuis View Post
    Question: how many USD does a single person pay per month for a decent/basic health-care insurance ? Or if the employer pays for it, how much does the employer pay ? How much do you pay for a family of 4 (2 adults, 2 children under 18) ?
    According to my W-2 (tax form), my employer and I paid a total of $33630.48 for health care coverage in 2019. For 2020, the estimate is $34936.32, of which $27474.12 comes from my employer and $7462.20 comes from me via payroll deduction. Percentage-wise, that's the smallest year to year increase I can remember. And my contribution has actually gone down over the last two years because my employer has been desperate to hire, so they're picking up more of the cost. My contribution to the premium was over $10k at one point.

    This is for a family of four; two adults, two children. It's an HSA plan with a high deductible and high out-of-pocket cap. There are no out of pocket costs for generic prescription drugs and we get one annual physical exam for each family member at no cost. We also have basic dental coverage that pays for cleanings and minor work like fillings, but coverage is limited to $2k/year maximum. Overall, I would describe it as a good health plan, but not gold plated. I have high blood pressure, but my wife and kids have no notable conditions or risk factors. So the cost of our coverage is typical for this area, which is one of the most expensive in the country for health care.

    A bit of price history:
    $8k in 2006 with no kids and traditional plan
    $13k in 2009
    $20k in 2013
    $25k in 2014 with one kid
    $27k in 2017 with two kids, and change to a high deductible HSA plan
    $33.6k in 2019
    $35k in 2020

  20. #12870
    BANNED
    Registered: Nov 2016
    Location: Trollinus Maximus
    Quote Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
    The problem is that it enforces a penalty for one group who doesn't have insurance, while allowing another access without any overhead. Providing healthcare to those who can't afford it is all well and good, but that does come across as a bit unfair.

    This is America, damnit! Everyone deserves to suffer!
    LIKE I said, I would NOT have a problem IF we did NOT get a fine for NOT having insurance. it IS fucking unfair to FINE legal US citizens just to give it to ILLEGALS who should NOT be here in the first place.

  21. #12871
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Land of the crazy
    Quote Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
    Which leads to the next conundrum. Whoever wins the 2020 election will be blamed for what's inevitably coming as a consequence of our politics. The stock market is growing primarily on corporate profit margins exceeding expectations, not job growth or trade, which is pretty decent, but not spectacular at the moment. It's a bubble built around the strength of a top heavy economy, one excited over itself, and its own performance. It'll burst whenever we find out it hasn't touched every corner of the economy, and people are being a lot more frugal with their money than the forecasted estimates.

    When it happens, and we find that we've already cut taxes to near historic lows, and thus won't be able to cut them any lower to spur the economy back into a recovery with without risking a massive debt increase, then things will get even worse. No path to an immediate recovery leads to a bearish stock market. A bearish stock market leads to conservative hiring practices from big businesses trying to maintain their profit margins. Conservative hiring practices lead to tepid job markets. Tepid job markets lead to so on and so on. It's possible we'll be facing a decade long low level recession with flat growth. There are a lot of reasons to assume we're heading towards a stagnant economy.

    Maybe Trump does need to be a two term president. It's easy to claim he's awesome when he's working within an economy that was already booming when he took office. Let's see how he fares in one that isn't playing to his favor.
    I hate to be pessimistic, but... um, yeah, I think you're right.

    There are a couple things that could partially save our ass in the next recession, but not ones you'd want to count on.

    First, the rest of the world could sink into recession before us. Thus even though we're headed towards insolvency over the long term, our debt might still look relatively safe compared other alternatives. That might buy us enough time to get through another short recession.

    Second, there could be another technological revolution that spurs another boom, much like the internet saved us in the 1990s. Perhaps machine learning this time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
    The problem is that it enforces a penalty for one group who doesn't have insurance, while allowing another access without any overhead. Providing healthcare to those who can't afford it is all well and good, but that does come across as a bit unfair.

    This is America, damnit! Everyone deserves to suffer!
    Take Medicare as the model. Everyone who earns a legit wage pays the Medicare payroll tax, so everyone has skin in the game, and everyone gets the benefit. I've yet to know a retiree on Medicare who's upset they paid too much into it or upset that a lower class person paid less payroll tax over their working life. I even have a couple of family members who preached absurdist libertarian utopianism for as long as I can remember, who are now quite happy to be on Medicare.

    As far as I can tell, the thing that really rubs people's fairness bone the wrong way is when people can live their life on the dole, taking all the benefits and not contributing anything to economic production. There are people out there who make a career out of exploiting the welfare system and the charities around it, and it's hard to feel empathy for them. I'm not saying everyone who takes benefits is like that, but it is a real thing. And despite the welfare block grants allowing states freedom to explore different systems, I don't think any state has found a solution that's fair to those people and fair to the taxpayers. For those who can't (or won't) find work in the private sector, there has to be a way to contribute something in return for benefits, at least community service. If they're physically disabled and can't perform manual labor like picking up trash or gardening, there ought to be a way for them to perform useful work for the community or town/city/state online. I think the main reason why this hasn't happened is that public sector unions don't want benefit recipients taking work from their members.

  22. #12872
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    So a family of 4 in the US pays $30K+ per year. A family of 4 in NL pays 5K euros for the same thing. Six times as expensive. With the risk of stuff not being covered after all (because of the small letters).

    USA, bestest country in the world !!

    It's a miracle that people are actually opposing a decent health-care system (the "Obamacare is socialism" bullshit). I guess it is because the Republicans first destroyed the public education-system. And now that they are destroying the health-care system, there is nobody left who can do basic math. :/ Do you know what the next system is gonna be that the Republicans plan to destroy ? (It won't be the military system, that's for sure).

    PS. We also have a "your own risk factor", which means you have to pay the first few hunderds euros of costs per year (to discourage you to go to the doctor for every tiny little issue). That's 385 euros this year.
    PPS. I also think that our health-care system (in NL) is actually more expensive than the systems in most other European countries.

  23. #12873
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by heywood View Post
    Perhaps machine learning this time.
    Dream on.
    If you want a more skeptical view on Machine Learning (and A.I.) you should watch this keynote presentation by James Mickens (a professor at Harvard).
    And yes, I agree with Mickens.
    The keynote-presentation is almost an hour long. But it's very good. Very interesting, and also pretty funny. Worth spending an hour to view (some time when you have time to spend).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajGX7odA87k

  24. #12874
    BANNED
    Registered: Nov 2016
    Location: Trollinus Maximus
    Quote Originally Posted by Gryzemuis View Post
    So a family of 4 in the US pays $30K+ per year. A family of 4 in NL pays 5K euros for the same thing. Six times as expensive. With the risk of stuff not being covered after all (because of the small letters).

    USA, bestest country in the world !!

    It's a miracle that people are actually opposing a decent health-care system (the "Obamacare is socialism" bullshit). I guess it is because the Republicans first destroyed the public education-system. And now that they are destroying the health-care system, there is nobody left who can do basic math. :/ Do you know what the next system is gonna be that the Republicans plan to destroy ? (It won't be the military system, that's for sure).

    PS. We also have a "your own risk factor", which means you have to pay the first few hunderds euros of costs per year (to discourage you to go to the doctor for every tiny little issue). That's 385 euros this year.
    PPS. I also think that our health-care system (in NL) is actually more expensive than the systems in most other European countries.
    Oretard sold the population to the insurance industry, pay me or else. that is dictator like.

  25. #12875
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by jkcerda View Post
    Oretard sold the population to the insurance industry, pay me or else. that is dictator like.
    The way I understood it (I'm not in the US) is that Obama wanted a single-payer system, where everyone gets coverage. And via that way pressure the pharmaceuticals and the health-care industry to lower their prices. I think that is the correct approach.

    Republicans have undermined the system so much that the result is pretty messy and far from perfect. When you are going to slam-hammer cracks in the system, it will happen that some people will fall into those cracks. Who are you going to blame, Obama or the nihilists and arseholes of the Republican party ? (That's a rhetorical question. The answer is: the Republicans).

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