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View Poll Results: How long will Trump be President?

Voters
144. You may not vote on this poll
  • 1 Term (4 Years)

    26 18.06%
  • 2 Terms (8 Years)

    51 35.42%
  • 1st Term Impeachment/Assassination

    50 34.72%
  • 2nd Term Impeachment/Assassination

    4 2.78%
  • I don't know what's going on!

    13 9.03%

Thread: ✮✮✮ !Trump Dump! ✮✮✮

  1. #13551
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Also, to further complicate the picture, here's someone who's apparently a cop casually destroying property on his free time:

    https://twitter.com/LovesTheBern/sta...71136330444800

  2. #13552
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Looks like Lord Dampnut who was sending out threats to sic vicious dogs on protesters was himself hunkered down in a White House bunker with the lights turned out:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/31/u...rge-floyd.html

    [...]
    Thousands of protesters demonstrated peacefully near the White House during the day, but by nightfall, with hundreds still in the streets, the scene turned more volatile as crowds surged forward against lines of riot police with plastic shields as the two sides vied for control of Lafayette Square across from the White House. Protesters threw water bottles, set off fireworks and burned a pile of wood and at least one car.

    One of the fires on H Street NW a block from the White House may have spread because soon afterward flames erupted in the basement of St. John’s Episcopal Church, the iconic “church of presidents” attended at least once by every chief executive going back to James Madison, but were soon doused by firefighters. Businesses far away from the White House boarded up to guard against vandalism, and Mayor Muriel E. Bowser ordered an 11 p.m. curfew. The White House turned off at least some of its exterior lights.

    Mr. Trump remained cloistered inside, periodically sending out Twitter messages like “LAW & ORDER!” until the evening, when he went quiet. While some aides urged him to keep off Twitter, Mr. Trump could not resist blasting out a string of messages earlier in the day berating Democrats for not being tough enough and attributing the turmoil to radical leftists.

    [...]

    While Mr. Trump has been a focus of anger, particularly among the crowds in Washington, aides repeatedly have tried to explain to him that the protests were not only about him, but about broader, systemic issues related to race, according to several people familiar with the discussions. Privately, advisers complained about his tweets, acknowledging that they were pouring fuel on an already incendiary situation.

    “Those are not constructive tweets, without any question,” Senator Tim Scott of South Carolina, the only black Republican in the Senate, said in an interview on “Fox News Sunday.” “I’m thankful that we can have the conversation. We don’t always agree on any of his tweets beforehand, but we have the ability to sit down and dialogue on how we move this nation forward.”

    Dan Eberhart, a Republican donor and supporter of Mr. Trump, said the president, with election looming in five months, is focused on catering to his core supporters rather than the nation at large. “Trump is far more divisive than past presidents,” Mr. Eberhart said. “His strength is stirring up his base, not calming the waters.”

    Robert C. O’Brien, the president’s national security adviser, said the president would continue “to take a strong stand for law and order” even as he understood the anger over Mr. Floyd’s death.

    [...]

    Some in the president’s circle see the escalations as a political boon, much in the way Richard M. Nixon won the presidency on a law-and-order platform after the 1968 riots. One adviser to Mr. Trump, who insisted on anonymity to describe private conversations, said images of widespread destruction could be helpful to the law-and-order message that Mr. Trump has projected since his 2016 campaign.

    The adviser said that it could particularly appeal to older women at a time when Mr. Trump’s support among seniors has eroded amid the coronavirus pandemic, which has disproportionately affected them. The risk, this adviser added, is that people are worn out by the president’s behavior.

    The difference is that, unlike Mr. Nixon, Mr. Trump is the incumbent. And other advisers said most top aides were unhappy with Mr. Trump’s 1 a.m. tweet on Friday invoking a 1967 quote from a Miami police chief about “shooting” black people during civil unrest. Those advisers said it was far from certain that Mr. Trump could use the violent outbreaks in cities to improve his weak standing with suburban women and independent voters.

    [...]

    The president and his family were rattled by their experience on Friday night, according to several advisers.

    After his evening in the bunker, Mr. Trump emerged on Saturday morning to boast that he never felt unsafe and vow to sic “vicious dogs” and “ominous weapons” on intruders. Melania Trump opted not to travel to Florida for the rocket launch. One person briefed on the events said the first lady, anxious about the protests, made the decision at the last minute, but another person briefed on what took place disputed that.

    After Mr. Trump returned to the White House from Florida on Saturday, he found a White House again under siege. This time, security was ready. Washington police blocked off roads for blocks around the building, while hundreds of police officers and National Guard troops ringed the exterior perimeter wearing helmets and riot gear and holding up plastic shields.

    The scene was similar Sunday night as well. Protesters shouted “no justice, no peace,” and “black lives matter” as well as chanting expletives at Mr. Trump. Washington icons like the Hay-Adams Hotel and the Oval Room restaurant, damaged from the night before, were boarded up.

    Graffiti was spray-painted for blocks, including on the historic Decatur House a block from the White House: “Why do we have to keep telling you black lives matter?”

  3. #13553
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    History is going to mark this as a particularly pathetic moment for him.

    Everybody is always going to remember when Reagan consoled the nation after the Challenger disaster, George HW Bush's sympathy with the East European turmoil at the time, the time Clinton "felt our pain" in 1992 and when he consoled the nation after the Oklahoma City bombing, George W Bush consoling the nation after 9/11, Obama after the Fort Hood shooting, and if you went back far enough, Johnson after JFK's shooting, even effing Nixon knew when to console the nation after a tragedy and use the language of reconciliation and unity with the Vietnam turmoil.

    It's like the lowest hanging fruit for a president, and even more odd because it gives Trump that delicious "love of the people" supply he craves so transparently desperately for free. But there's one thing Trump fears more than not being beloved as the greatest president in US history, and that's to appear weak and vulnerable, with the eyes of his dead dad looking down on him like Skinner muttering "pathetic". On an emotional level he just can't do it.

    It's like when he "renounced" David Duke's endorsement when he was running for president (a KKK leader). At he first claimed he didn't even know who this group was, the KKK, so how could he renounce them, and finally he comes back with language like okay, fine, I renounce him, are you happy now? He just ... literally can't feel empathy, much less credibly express it. Sad!

    ......
    Edit:

    On these protests generally, they almost deserve to have their own thread. One of my friends posted this civil rights era classic that I think captures their spirit, that sense of epic frustration and impatience for real change already.



    That said, there's also news coming out that the protests are getting coopted by agitators on the left and right, and the looters and opportunists, which to me is unfortunate to see trying to wrest control of what should be an transformative moment for the Black community in the US and the country in facing up to pretty fundamental inequalities and injustice that George Floyd's tragic death represents. I think it's another mark of structural discrimination that even movements meant to empower a discriminated group can get exploited. On the positive side, it's raising discussion on social and racial justice in the US especially among whites like I don't think I've seen before, which is something.
    Last edited by demagogue; 1st Jun 2020 at 05:21.

  4. #13554
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    Quote Originally Posted by PigLick View Post
    All of capitalism is inherently racist
    No it's not.

    The idea of capitalism is entirely neutral. It just so happens that history is what it is.


    As to these protests - sure the majority are relatively peaceful, but there are enough idiots amongst the protestors that looting and violence is inevitable. This is people for you. A lot of videos of police being totally OTT though. A lot.

  5. #13555
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    The Lincoln Project pouring some oil:


  6. #13556
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Melbourne, Australia
    Quote Originally Posted by Starker View Post
    Also, you sure are quick to ascribe motivations, but what excuse does the police have, then? They just want to hurt peaceful people and shove them around for the sake of it?
    I'm speaking only of those looting, burning and assaulting business owners. Until that ends then hard measures are needed. Reacting to violence with violence and destruction is never the right way.

  7. #13557
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Hard measures like kneeling on a defenceless man's neck who's begging for mercy?

    If reacting to violence with violence is not the right way, what do you think will more police violence solve?

  8. #13558
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Melbourne, Australia
    Nice little avoidance there. Violence by protesters will solve nothing.

    Violence in response to violence, will bring nothing but further violence.

  9. #13559
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    And wanton violence by police will?

  10. #13560
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    The protesters are not the ones committing violence or damage because violence and damage isn't protesting anything. It's just pure cynical agitation or opportunistic looting. And you can't let the agitators dictate the agenda or there will never be necessary reforms. One needs to see the bigger picture on a historical scale if you want structural change than just reacting to what's happening in one moment in a flight of emotion to the exclusion of everything else.

  11. #13561
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Sure, and I'm sure there are plenty of bad outside actors who have rushed to exacerbate the situation, but icemann was saying that the brutal actions of the police against protesters and journalists and medics were entirely justified because there are people who loot and set things on fire.

  12. #13562
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Melbourne, Australia
    Loot, set things on fire and assaulted shop owners attempting to defend their stores. Get it right.

    Sure be angry against the police. Understandable. But why attack shop owners?

  13. #13563
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Again, which of the people in the examples I brought were doing anything remotely like that? The woman trampled by a police horse? The journalist who lost her eye when the police shot her in the face with a rubber bullet? The medic who was attacked by police while trying to stop the bleeding of a police victim?

  14. #13564
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Melbourne, Australia
    Just because you didn't use something as an example, does not set the area of discussion. This discussion is on all that is going on with protests.

  15. #13565
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Yet, these examples were precisely the ones where you said the police actions were entirely justified.

  16. #13566
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    You guys are going to go in circles forever because there's both types of people involved in the protests.

    What you should be focusing on is proper police behavior, and the answer to that is science-based deescalation training, which police going over the line even to address legitimate criminal activity evidentially have not been trained in. There's no debate they have a duty to prevent violence and looting, but the methods they use to do it is in question.

    And there's also a principle in US constitutional law, civil and political rights in all liberal democracies really, that says when you have large scale protests, especially if they are spontaneous, the police need to allow the legitimate exercise of the right to assembly to the extent possible, and only have the most minimal restrictions necessary (the LRA or least restrictive alternative) to address imminent violence and destruction of property, in any case, restrictions that allow the protests to still go on unfettered for those peacefully engaging in it.
    Last edited by demagogue; 1st Jun 2020 at 07:48.

  17. #13567
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    To be sure, I don't condone violence of any kind, not even property damage. But what I've seen from the US police these last few days has just been extraordinarily excessive. I'm not buying even for a moment that the police is going soft on the protesters and that harsher measures are therefore needed. But, unfortunately, it seems escalating this is fully in Lord Dampnut's interest and he's going the full "Law and Order!" route of Nixon.

  18. #13568
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Melbourne, Australia
    To give more clarity onto what I was referring to (and my bad for not going more in depth earlier):

    In the case of peaceful protest. Standing in solidarity over the brutality conducted by the police responsible for the death of George Floyd. The right to peaceful protest is paramount, in a democratic society. And I did not for a second mean that they should be acted against with heavy force (as I have seen on television). Secondly the media should not be arrested either. Thirdly all of the police responsible for that act (and not just the one who had his knee to Floyd's throat) should be arrested and charged with murder / accessory to murder (in the case of the police that stood nearby).

    In the case of aggressive hostile / violent actions towards police, the looting of stores and violence toward shop owners / staff, I believe that strong actions should be taken against them. And only them, as in the case of the looting, setting fire to buildings etc, those are people taking advantage of the situation, and should be arrested for doing so.

  19. #13569
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2006
    Location: Washington DC
    I think you can recognize that strong measures are needed to subdue violent rioters, while simultaneously criticizing the unnecessary use of those same measures against protestors and bystanders.

    Yeah, I get having riot cops with pepperballs when there are people setting fire to police cars and beating store owners. But having riot cops with pepperballs shooting at people sitting on their front porch, or targeting obvious news crews? Completely inexcusable. I keep seeing the rioters brought up in response to these clear examples of police misconduct, and it reeks of whataboutism.

    One thing's for sure, the heavy-handed response to protests combined with the ease of sharing these instances of abuse via social media has fanned the flames in a way that would have been impossible twenty or even ten years ago. We're seeing the natural results of a lack of accountability and us-vs-them mentality play out in real time for all the world to see.
    Last edited by catbarf; 1st Jun 2020 at 11:39.

  20. #13570
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    So we're still in the midst of a pandemic, and now we've seen two big protests erupt across the nation. One thing's for sure, left or right, we Americans don't have a GODDAMN bit of sense.

    Though I do think it's funny how the talking heads and Facebook posts have changed over the last couple of weeks. Before, you had all these people fretting over the quarantine as being a front for a government operation to implement martial law, and take away our freedoms. A few days, and some black people rioting later, these same people are now screaming for martial law to be implemented to show those people what for!

  21. #13571
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    Speaking of which, I guess this is a decent time to step back and take stock. So far this year we've had a near war with Iran in January, apocalyptic fires in February, a global pandemic and shutdowns, starting up in March, economic catastrophe in April so sudden we haven't even registered it for what it actually is (not to mention the armed prepper protests and 100K deaths the US has on its hands), and race riots in May.

    Anybody care to take bets on what June has to offer?

    I imagine, at least for the US context, this is all building up to the election in November when the real crazy may come to town if, e.g., Trump loses the election, claims fraud, decides not to step down and his dimwit cultists take his side and storm the capital or who knows what... If we even make it to November.

  22. #13572
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Considering the earthquakes being reported in Yellowstone, I'd say we're setting ourselves up for the supervolcano in June.

  23. #13573
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    And this may be our bon mot for the day. Trump's instructions to governors about the protests on a conference call, I guess from his bunker(?): “You have to dominate, if you don’t dominate, you’re wasting your time — they’re going to run over you, you’re going to look like a bunch of jerks.”

    I think he takes 'looking weak' more seriously than anything else, if you had to boil the whole Trump doctrine down to a single thing. Who knew one little kid being despised by his father growing up could wreak so much havoc in the world?

  24. #13574
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    And there's a good chance you'll have four more years of this fun, but now with a completely reshaped Supreme Court and Justice Department.

  25. #13575
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2006
    Location: Berghem Haven
    Quote Originally Posted by demagogue View Post
    Who knew one little kid being despised by his father growing up could wreak so much havoc in the world?
    You know the story of Adolf Schicklgruber son of Alois?

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