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View Poll Results: How long will Trump be President?

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  • 1 Term (4 Years)

    26 18.18%
  • 2 Terms (8 Years)

    50 34.97%
  • 1st Term Impeachment/Assassination

    50 34.97%
  • 2nd Term Impeachment/Assassination

    4 2.80%
  • I don't know what's going on!

    13 9.09%

Thread: ✮✮✮ !Trump Dump! ✮✮✮

  1. #13601
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    Yes, that's crowd control. When the police want to move people who haven't moved on request they will charge. We've seen this many, many times in London. I remember it in the 90s.

    We don't know what happened before this. We don't know if the police had repeatedly asked the crowd to move.

    You're doing the classic - "slugging the cameraman" is not demonstrated in this video. You know there is contact but it could be a push or just grabbing of the camera. I'd call it "contact" because without 3rd person video you cannot tell.

    I'm not saying this is all good, I'm saying we do not have real evidence of them doing anything wrong.

  2. #13602
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Lockdown... if only
    That wasn't crowd control at all. That was the police trying to clear a space for the President to come in and pose for a photo op with a Bible in front of a church.

    Whatever happened in the UK in the 90s is not relevant. We have a Constitutionally guaranteed right to assemble peacefully.

    As far as I've been able to tell from the multiple reports and footage around the event, the protesters that were over-run by police were not violent and not destroying any property. They were simply in the way of the President's media event. The President has no greater right to be there than any other citizen.

    Besides, another one of those Constitutionally guaranteed rights is freedom of the press. There are two different videos of this incident, one from the camera's POV and another from the side. In both videos, it's clear that the news crew was on the sidelines when the cameraman was targeted and slugged, and the reporter gets a baton to the back as she's running away. I presume they were targeted because of the TV camera. I can't say that for sure, but I can't think of any other explanation.

    Stopping looting and property destruction is one thing, but this has no excuse. It may as well have been shot in Hong Kong.

  3. #13603
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Lockdown... if only
    I'll also say this. In other cities, the police response has been commendably restrained. This is what went down in the city closest to me on Sunday:

    https://www.unionleader.com/news/cri...6c7a315b7.html

    In Flint, MI, when a protest march reached the police HQ, the sheriff came out and marched with the protesters. Similar things occurred in Norfolk, VA, Santa Cruz, CA, and other places I've already forgotten about.

    Police were shot in Las Vegas and St. Louis. In NYC, somebody tried to run down cops in a vehicle, and other people were throwing Molotov cocktails at the cops. But the NYC cops were also using their vehicles as weapons to plow through a crowd.

    It's complete mayhem in a lot of major cities, with cops and protesters both unleashing their pent-up rage for a lifetime's worth of perceived slights.

  4. #13604
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    In my hometown, Fort Worth, Dallas I think so too, the police also knelt down and prayed with the protesters.
    But North Texas isn't so much of a hotbed of radicalism, even if we have a good number of minorities.
    (We probably have a bigger problem with the white nationalist militias, but that's another story.)

    In this case there was really no ambiguity that a cop needlessly murdered a black man over an agonizing seven minutes suffocating him while he was pleading for his life. So I think a lot of police are very conscious that they have to distinguish themselves from that and don't want to look like they're defending that kind of police behavior. That makes this different from the Michael Brown case, where the shooting officer's narrative was that he was being attacked and he was absolved of charges. That was much more a clash of conflicting narratives that set in than is possible here. Here, you really have to focus on vandalism and looting and blind yourself to the cause of it pretty much altogether to push that kind of heavy-handed narrative.

    It's interesting. I just read Ellison's Invisible Man (great book!), which ends with riots in Black Harlem I think around the 1930s, and the unnamed protagonist was kind of reveling in the dual identity of the Rinehart character, who was both a gangster and a preacher, and when he was mistaken for the guy, he adopted the dual character for himself. And it was in the context of the Harlem riots happening all around at the time. Even though it was a century ago, it's interesting to see the parallels with today, this kind of paradox of uninhibited lawlessness and righteous purification being unleashed as part of the same movement.

  5. #13605
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Genuine attempts at de-escalation are sorely needed, but apparently the police has also used these moments for a photo op and were beating up the very same people not even an hour afterwards.

    Quote Originally Posted by heywood View Post
    That wasn't crowd control at all. That was the police trying to clear a space for the President to come in and pose for a photo op with a Bible in front of a church.
    If White House rumours are to believed, Lord Dampnut was reportedly angry that he was being called Bunker Bitch on social media and wanted to prove that he wasn't afraid of the protesters, so he had them beaten and gassed (among them a priest of the church) more to show that he could than anything else. And afterwards he bragged how he had "dominated" them.

    Both of the candidates are trying to make clear where they... er... stand, but the difference couldn't be more stark:




  6. #13606
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Apparently, the reason New York police has been covering up their badge numbers during the protests was actually to honour their colleagues who have died of the coronavirus:

    https://twitter.com/Popehat/status/1267937587043303424

    And this must then be how they show their respect for medical workers on the front lines:

    https://www.thedailybeast.com/even-m...tests?ref=home

    Twenty minutes after leaving his job at a Brooklyn hospital on Saturday night, 32-year-old Rayne Valentine was lying in the fetal position on the sidewalk.

    He’d been beaten and kicked by New York police officers, his hospital ID smeared with his own blood, he told The Daily Beast.

    Valentine, a Marine veteran who worked as a chef before the pandemic hit the restaurant industry, got a job in March at Kings County Hospital Center. He has spent the past several months moving medicine and patients around the facility, as well as piling hundreds of dead bodies—many of them COVID-19 victims—into refrigerated morgue trucks.

    Valentine told The Daily Beast on Tuesday that he needed a job, but, like many Americans, he also felt helpless and wanted to contribute on the front lines of the deadly pandemic. Unfortunately, his is just one of many horrifying stories of medical workers, firefighters, and paramedics who’ve been heralded as heroes—only to be tear gassed or beaten by police during the days of civil unrest following the Minneapolis police killing of George Floyd.

    “They needed people,” said Valentine. “The first day I was [at the hospital], we loaded up 45 bodies in a few hours. I saw a lot of the staff having breakdowns. It was scary for a lot of people.” But Valentine felt that his military background—serving four years overseas in the Marine Corps—meant he could handle seeing things that the average American may not be able to process.

    But even his time overseas did not prepare him for Saturday.

    When Valentine left work, around 11:45 p.m. that night, police were clashing with protesters nearby on Church Avenue, squad cars ablaze. He was trying to avoid the chaos and would have taken an Uber or another route “if I’d known” how close the skirmishes had traveled, he recalled.

    “It’s not a route I usually take. I had to take a double shift the next day, and they allow hospital workers to get hotel rooms,” said Valentine. “I was having a smoke and had my headphones in to try and decompress.”

    But around midnight, he came across a “swarm” of police officers near the entrance to the Church Avenue subway station, chasing a “kid in this yellow and black hoodie,” and Valentine had his phone out recording.

    “I stayed out of the way,” said Valentine. “I was up against one of the closed shops just recording. I didn’t say anything to antagonize them. I was walking backwards as they shouted ‘back up.’ And then this cop pushed me, and there were other cops hitting me on my legs and stuff too, but my head is the only thing that got seriously injured.”

    In the video, which was reviewed by The Daily Beast, officers shout at Valentine to “move back” and he responds “I am moving back!”

    During the beating, Valentine said, he kept getting kicked and his phone stopped recording. He said he told the officers, “I’m just trying to go home,” but that they responded: “Well, you picked the wrong time to do that.”
    [...]

  7. #13607
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2005
    Location: Not Kansas
    I don't get it; the protests are about illegal and unwarranted police brutality, so what do far too many cops in our country do? They respond with even more police brutality. I feel like I missed a memo or something.

  8. #13608
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Part of it is probably that the protests pose a direct threat to them -- the protestors are going after their authority and their immunity from law.

    Another part might be that a lot of them fully support the current president and the idea that the police have to be tough and instil fear first and foremost.

    Also, this is kind of how they normally operate. At least looking at it from the outside, the US police and the entire policing culture seems to be completely messed up. For several decades now violent crime in the US has been going down, but police brutality has only increased. And shows of force like the current one is what they are willing to show people publicly. Just imagine what they do when they don't think anyone's looking.

  9. #13609
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Or maybe the Onion is closer to the truth here:

    https://www.theonion.com/police-didn...-le-1843860163

  10. #13610
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Lockdown... if only
    The police profession tends to attract some people with personality disorders who really shouldn't be anywhere near law enforcement. Most cops are not like that, but you'll find at least some in any large department. Police are also extremely fraternal. It's up to the leadership of the department to recognize the problem individuals and keep them reigned in, and to establish a culture that doesn't tolerate misbehavior and cover up. Some large police departments have failed miserably at this, to the point where problem attitudes and behavior are so ingrained in the culture that whistleblowing becomes a career ending move. NYPD is a good example.

  11. #13611
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Location: Canuckistan GWN
    In Canada, the police act frames the police as, first and foremost, "Peace Officers". Their primary concern is to keep the peace and enforcing the law is only one part of that duty. It seems like a small detail but it is a significant difference between that and "law enforcement officers", who put enforcement above all else, even at the expense of peace.

    I'm not pretending that Canadian police, especially the RCMP, are free of prejudice and always act with unwavering professionalism, but the standard they are held to is very different and the result is, for the most part, very different as well.

  12. #13612
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Then it's probably also the police academies that are at fault here. After years of training and psychological exams and whatnot it should be pretty clear who the barrel spoiling apples are.
    Last edited by Starker; 3rd Jun 2020 at 16:52.

  13. #13613
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    We had a protest in London today. There clearly wasn't social distancing.

    And we've just had a report that shows "After accounting for the effect of sex, age, deprivation and region, it found that people of Bangladeshi ethnicity were at most risk, with around twice the risk of death than people of white British ethnicity. People of Chinese, Indian, Pakistani, other Asian, Caribbean and other black ethnicity had between 10% and 50% higher risk of death when compared to white British."

    This makes me think protesting right now is... well, let's change the slogan shall we? Perhaps it should be:

    Black Lives Matter*

    *unless they result from Covid contracted at a protest.

  14. #13614
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Lord Dampnut wants everyone to know that he was only inspecting the bunker and definitely not hiding there or anything:

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...floyd-protests

    Donald Trump has claimed to have spent only a “tiny” amount of time in a reinforced security bunker under the White House as protesters clashed with Secret Service agents outside and has insisted his time there was for an “inspection”, not his own safety.
    [...]

    Meanwhile, presumably because all this fascist pageantry has not been in-your-face enough, Republican Congressman Matt Gaetz has publicly called for antifascists to be hunted down.

    https://www.thenation.com/article/ac...ifa-trump-fbi/

    The FBI’s Washington Field Office “has no intelligence indicating Antifa involvement/presence” in the violence that occurred on May 31 during the D.C.-area protests over the murder of George Floyd, according to an internal FBI situation report obtained exclusively by The Nation. That same day, President Donald Trump announced on Twitter that he would designate “Antifa” a terrorist organization, even though the government has no existing authority to declare a domestic group a terrorist organization, and antifa is not an organized group. Following the president’s tweet, Attorney General William Barr said in a statement, “The violence instigated and carried out by Antifa and other similar groups in connection with the rioting is domestic terrorism and will be treated accordingly.”

    The FBI report, however, states that “based on CHS [Confidential Human Source] canvassing, open source/social media partner engagement, and liaison, FBI WFO has no intelligence indicating Antifa involvement/presence.” The statement followed a list of violent acts like throwing bricks at police and the discovery of a backpack containing explosive materials, which were flagged by the FBI under a “Key Updates” section of the report. The FBI has been issuing such reports daily since the weekend, according to a Bureau source, who added that none of these documents contained any evidence of antifa violence.

    Antifa, short for “anti-fascist,” is a type of militant anti-racist, anti-nationalist organizing that does not rely on the justice system to confront the far right. Groups associated with antifa have destroyed property and committed violence in the past, but the fact that the FBI’s situation reports cannot find any evidence of such involvement now suggests that fears about such groups may be exaggerated.

    The report did warn that individuals from a far-right social media group had “called for far-right provocateurs to attack federal agents, use automatic weapons against protesters.”
    [...]
    Last edited by Starker; 3rd Jun 2020 at 19:08.

  15. #13615
    Now we’ve got white militias forming

    https://apnews.com/8cb2b737f0af938659afc66535069ecd

  16. #13616
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Were you not expecting anyone to read your link, Tony? There's not a damn thing about white militias forming in that article. Just predominately white neighborhoods getting antsy due to the surrounding chaos.

    People forming armed neighborhood watches in dangerous times is a far cry from white militias.

  17. #13617
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Melbourne, Australia
    You just need to use water to expose the hidden ink. The reptilions are watching. Have to be careful.

  18. #13618
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Lord Dampnut's former defence secretary publicly disagrees with the administration's course of action:

    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...zation/612640/

    James Mattis, the esteemed Marine general who resigned as secretary of defense in December 2018 to protest Donald Trump’s Syria policy, has, ever since, kept studiously silent about Trump’s performance as president. But he has now broken his silence, writing an extraordinary broadside in which he denounces the president for dividing the nation, and accuses him of ordering the U.S. military to violate the constitutional rights of American citizens.

    “I have watched this week’s unfolding events, angry and appalled,” Mattis writes. “The words ‘Equal Justice Under Law’ are carved in the pediment of the United States Supreme Court. This is precisely what protesters are rightly demanding. It is a wholesome and unifying demand—one that all of us should be able to get behind. We must not be distracted by a small number of lawbreakers. The protests are defined by tens of thousands of people of conscience who are insisting that we live up to our values—our values as people and our values as a nation.” He goes on, “We must reject and hold accountable those in office who would make a mockery of our Constitution.”

    [...]

    “When I joined the military, some 50 years ago,” he writes, “I swore an oath to support and defend the Constitution. Never did I dream that troops taking that same oath would be ordered under any circumstance to violate the Constitutional rights of their fellow citizens—much less to provide a bizarre photo op for the elected commander-in-chief, with military leadership standing alongside.”

    He goes on to implicitly criticize the current secretary of defense, Mark Esper, and other senior officials as well. “We must reject any thinking of our cities as a ‘battlespace’ that our uniformed military is called upon to ‘dominate.’ At home, we should use our military only when requested to do so, on very rare occasions, by state governors. Militarizing our response, as we witnessed in Washington, D.C., sets up a conflict—a false conflict—between the military and civilian society. It erodes the moral ground that ensures a trusted bond between men and women in uniform and the society they are sworn to protect, and of which they themselves are a part. Keeping public order rests with civilian state and local leaders who best understand their communities and are answerable to them.
    [...]
    And The Lincoln Project can't make ads fast enough:


  19. #13619
    Level 10,000 achieved
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Finland
    Quote Originally Posted by SubJeff View Post
    This makes me think protesting right now is... well, let's change the slogan shall we? Perhaps it should be:

    Black Lives Matter*
    *unless they result from Covid contracted at a protest.
    A few posts ago you were making excuses for the cops and now you expect us to believe you're against protests out of concern for the health of the protesters? SubJeff, stop posting.

  20. #13620
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    I wasn't making excuses for the cops. Get out of town. You seem to suggesting I have some ulterior motive.

    I'm not "concerned" about the health of the protestors, I think it's ill advised to gather in such large numbers during a pandemic and that's especially true for black people who have a higher risk of death from Covid.

    If only one person dies or has a permanent health problem as a result of Covid contracted at a protest, I think the protest was not worth it. There are other ways to protest than what we saw in London yesterday.

  21. #13621
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2006
    Location: Washington DC
    Quote Originally Posted by Starker View Post
    Then it's probably also the police academies that are at fault here. After years of training and psychological exams and whatnot it should be pretty clear who the barrel spoiling apples are.
    Police unions seem to be a bigger part of this, or at least closer to a root cause. From checkthepolice.org:

    HOW POLICE UNION CONTRACTS BLOCK ACCOUNTABILITY

    1. Disqualifying misconduct complaints that are submitted too many days after an incident occurs or if an investigation takes too long to complete

    2. Preventing police officers from being interrogated immediately after being involved in an incident or otherwise restricting how, when, or where they can be interrogated

    3. Giving officers access to information that civilians do not get prior to being interrogated

    4. Requiring cities to pay costs related to police misconduct including by giving officers paid leave while under investigation, paying legal fees, and/or the cost of settlements

    5. Preventing information on past misconduct investigations from being recorded or retained in an officer's personnel file

    6. Limiting disciplinary consequences for officers or limiting the capacity of civilian oversight structures and/or the media to hold police accountable.
    Example: Many police union contracts, when renegotiated, include clauses to re-hire officers who were previously fired with cause. This means that even if a police officer is identified as problematic and terminated (difficult to do, thanks to the protections provided by the union), they can just come right back. If they can't, they can just get a job with a different precinct.

    You've got police officers covering each other, protected by union rules negotiated with the city and/or state, and lacking any external oversight. Not surprising to me that 'bad apples' are identified and then not only kept on the force, but actively defended.

  22. #13622
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    Quote Originally Posted by heywood View Post
    We have a Constitutionally guaranteed right to assemble peacefully.
    Does that include blocking whatever roads you like as long as it's peaceful? Are you allowed to peacefully gather in front of an emergency ambulance entrance to hospitals, blocking them from getting in so people die?

    The President has no greater right to be there than any other citizen.
    Really? So when he's travelling it's okay to just drive next to him, behind him, in amongst the security detail, whatever? No special rules for the president. At all?

    There are two different videos of this incident, one from the camera's POV and another from the side. In both videos, it's clear that the news crew was on the sidelines when the cameraman was targeted and slugged, and the reporter gets a baton to the back as she's running away.
    Yeah, I've never seen this other angle. When I do, maybe it'll change my mind. Until then it's very unclear what really happened. You have a link?

  23. #13623
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Location: Canuckistan GWN
    Meanwhile, Lindsay Graham is leading a GOP majority inquiry into the Russia thingy. This is Glen Kirschner's Top 10 take on Rod Rosenstein's testimony. As they promise in YouTube countdown videos, you won't believe #1!



    Does that include blocking whatever roads you like as long as it's peaceful?
    Yes. Protest marches have traditionally used main roads with high visibility. Disruption of normal traffic is a time honored tactic of protests all over the world and throughout history. Protests don't work well when held out of sight.

    Are you allowed to peacefully gather in front of an emergency ambulance entrance to hospitals, blocking them from getting in so people die?
    Are you allowed to conflate peaceful protest with property crime and murder without establishing a necessary connection between the two?

    The answer to both of these questions is, no.

  24. #13624
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    In most places you can't just decide to block main roads with your protests. There are rules.

    Now I dislike Trump as much as the next liberal, but this "we're all equal" bs is getting out of hand.

    Yes, the president has privileges you don't. Deal with it.

  25. #13625
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Lockdown... if only
    Quote Originally Posted by SubJeff View Post
    Does that include blocking whatever roads you like as long as it's peaceful?
    The road was closed.

    Are you allowed to peacefully gather in front of an emergency ambulance entrance to hospitals, blocking them from getting in so people die?
    Unrelated hypothetical.

    Really? So when he's travelling it's okay to just drive next to him, behind him, in amongst the security detail, whatever? No special rules for the president. At all?
    What I'm saying is that nobody in this country has any more right to access a public space than anyone else, and that includes the President. It's reasonable and necessary to accommodate the needs of the President when conducting official business. But this wasn't official business. The President wanted to stage a photo op to show his supporters that he wasn't hiding out under the White House. Surely you're not going to tell me that a stupid photo op is worth putting on the jack boots?

    Yeah, I've never seen this other angle. When I do, maybe it'll change my mind. Until then it's very unclear what really happened. You have a link?
    It's right there in the link. It was the top reply at the time Starker posted. Now you have to expand the thread to see it. I don't know why you need it. If you didn't see the punch to the cameraman in the first video, then you're letting your anti-protester bias override your eyes.

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