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View Poll Results: How long will Trump be President?

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  • 1 Term (4 Years)

    31 18.90%
  • 2 Terms (8 Years)

    56 34.15%
  • 1st Term Impeachment/Assassination

    51 31.10%
  • 2nd Term Impeachment/Assassination

    5 3.05%
  • I don't know what's going on!

    21 12.80%
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Thread: ✮✮✮ !Trump Dumped! ✮✮✮

  1. #16801
    This is actually true. The relevant cases include Armstrong v Bush, 721 F. Supp. 343 (D.D.C. 1989): https://law.justia.com/cases/federal...1/343/1420019/

    and Judicial Watch, Inc. v. Nat’l Archives & Records Admin., 845 F. Supp. 2d 288, 297 (D.D.C. 2012): https://casetext.com/case/judicial-w...-records-admin


    In Armstrong Judge Richey held:
    “During his term of office, the President may dispose of those of his Presidential records that no longer have administrative, historical, informational, or evidentiary value.” Id. § 2203(c). If the Archivist thinks it advisable, he may notify Congress of the President’s intent to dispose of the records; and if the Archivist notifies Congress, the President must submit the disposal schedules to the appropriate congressional committees and wait sixty days before destroying the records. Id. §§ 2203(c), 2203(d). The PRA gives neither the Archivist nor the Congress the authority to veto the President’s decision to destroy the records.”

    Judicial Watch quotes Armstrong and Judge Jackson adds:
    “Since the President is completely entrusted with the management and even the disposal of Presidential records during his time in office, it would be difficult for this Court to conclude that Congress intended that he would have less authority to do what he pleases with what he considers to be his personal records.”

    Judge Jackson ruled that a president’s discretion on what are personal rather than official records is far-reaching and solely his, as is his ability to declassify or destroy records at will.

    “Under the statutory scheme established by the Presidential Records Act, the decision to segregate personal materials from Presidential records is made by the President, during the President’s term and in his sole discretion.

    A decision to challenge a president’s destruction of Presidential records lies solely with the National Archives and is not subject to judicial review. The Presidential Records Act does not even allege that the National Archives may do so for records the President deems to be personal. Even if the National Archives were to challenge the president’s decision (in this case it seems that they are), and the attorney general were to initiate an enforcement act, it would be a civil procedure and carry no criminal penalty. No one goes to jail.

    The records Trump held at Mar-a-Lago were both declassified by him and deemed personal by him. Moreover, both declassification and deeming a record personal are solely and wholly within the president’s discretion: a document is declassified when he says so, as he says so, and no one gets a veto on that. It is not something he has to prove.

    So TL;DR: There's no way Trump can be prosecuted for any of this. It's solely a political play to smear his name before the midterms (and anyone associated with him).

  2. #16802
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Too bad the relevant laws in this case that were cited in the search warrant say nothing about the documents being classified or not, only that they contain defence information. Such as, y'know, nuclear secrets. These weren't just the some assorted souvenirs, there were apparently documents deemed sensitive enough to be only allowed to viewed in a specially built facility under special procedures. And he refused to give them back, deceived the authorities, and hid them, all the while he was no longer a president, but an ordinary citizen.

  3. #16803
    they contain defence information. Such as, y'know, nuclear secrets.
    No one actually believes that except the Rachel Maddow-level sensationalist grifters. And if they exist, let's see them, with a minimal sea of black redactions. I'm guessing that won't happen.

    all the while he was no longer a president, but an ordinary citizen.
    If he took documents and declassified them, he doesn't have to give them back because the clock hit midnight Jan 21st, 2021 and his coach turned into a pumpkin. If he declassified them as President, then he gets to keep them - aside from the archivists initiating PRA procedures as per the linked legal cases.

  4. #16804
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    You don't just get to keep secret documents because you declassify them. They are still the property of the United States.

    And you don't just have to take my word for it -- the recent 11th circuit court ruling said as much (bolding mine):

    https://int.nyt.com/data/documenttoo...35ca1/full.pdf

    For our part, we cannot discern why Plaintiff would have an individual interest in or need for any of the one-hundred documents with classification markings. Classified documents are marked to show they are classified, for instance, with their classification level. Classified National Security Information, Exec. Order No. 13,526, § 1.6, 3 C.F.R. 298, 301 (2009 Comp.), reprinted in 50 U.S.C. § 3161app. at 290–301. They are “owned by, produced by or for, or . . . under the control of the United States Government.” Id. § 1.1. And they include information the “unauthorized disclosure [of which] could reasonably be expected to cause identifiable or describable damage to the national security.” Id.§ 1.4. For this reason, a person may have access to classified information only if, among other requirements, he “has a need-to-know the information.” Id. § 4.1(a)(3). This requirement pertains equally to former Presidents, unless the current administration, in its discretion, chooses to waive that requirement. Id. § 4.4(3).

    Plaintiff has not even attempted to show that he has a need to know the information contained in the classified documents. Nor has he established that the current administration has waived that requirement for these documents. And even if he had, that, in and of itself, would not explain why Plaintiff has an individual interest in the classified documents.

    Plaintiff suggests that he may have declassified these documents when he was President. But the record contains no evidence that any of these records were declassified. And before the special master, Plaintiff resisted providing any evidence that he had declassified any of these documents. See Doc. No. 97 at 2–3., Sept. 19, 2022, letter from James M. Trusty, et al., to Special Master Raymond J. Dearie, at 2–3. In any event, at least for these purposes, the declassification argument is a red herring because declassifying an official document would not change its content or render it personal. So even if we assumed that Plaintiff did declassify some or all of the documents, that would not explain why he has a personal interest in them.
    Last edited by Starker; 22nd Sep 2022 at 18:28.

  5. #16805
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by RippedPhreak View Post
    No one actually believes that except the Rachel Maddow-level sensationalist grifters. And if they exist, let's see them, with a minimal sea of black redactions. I'm guessing that won't happen.
    According to the receipt for the property seized from the "Southern White House", there were documents marked as TS/SCI -- top secret sensitive compartmented information. This is only used for the most sensitive of information, something even people with top secret clearance don't have free access to, not for the president's meal plans or napkin scribblings.
    Last edited by Starker; 22nd Sep 2022 at 21:00.

  6. #16806
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Quote Originally Posted by RippedPhreak View Post
    If he took documents and declassified them, he doesn't have to give them back because the clock hit midnight Jan 21st, 2021 and his coach turned into a pumpkin. If he declassified them as President, then he gets to keep them - aside from the archivists initiating PRA procedures as per the linked legal cases.
    If he declassified information that originated from outside his office, then it becomes the property of We, The People, not Trump's personal keepsakes. It still has to be archived.

    Plus, your quoted laws above pertain to presidential records specifically, which, per the legal definition thereof...

    "The term “Presidential records” means documentary materials, or any reasonably seg*regable portion thereof, created or received by the President, the President’s immediate staff, or a unit or individual of the Executive Office of the President whose function is to advise or assist the President, in the course of conducting activities which relate to or have an effect upon the carrying out of the constitutional, statutory, or other official or ceremonial duties of the President. Such term— (A) includes any documentary materials relating to the political activities of the President or members of the President’s staff, but only if such activities relate to or have a direct effect upon the carrying out of constitutional, statutory, or other official or ceremonial duties of the President; but (B) does not include any documentary materials that are (i) official records of an agency (as defined in section 552(e) of title 5, United States Code); (ii) personal records; (iii) stocks of publications and stationery; or (iv) extra copies of documents produced only for convenience of reference, when such copies are clearly so identified."

    Very little of what Trump withheld could be considered such.

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/44/2201#2
    Last edited by Renzatic; 22nd Sep 2022 at 19:11.

  7. #16807
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by RippedPhreak View Post
    and Judicial Watch, Inc. v. Nat’l Archives & Records Admin., 845 F. Supp. 2d 288, 297 (D.D.C. 2012): https://casetext.com/case/judicial-w...-records-admin
    Nothing here but a cherry-picked misreading of the cited text, which goes on to say:

    [C]ourts are accorded the power to review guidelines outlining, what is, and what is not, a ‘presidential record’ under the terms of the PRA. The PRA does not bestow on the President the power to assert sweeping authority over whatever materials he chooses to designate as presidential records without any possibility of judicial review.
    Id. at 1290. The court stated that Armstrong I only barred judicial review of “creation, management, and disposal decisions” of the President and not “the initial classification of existing materials.” Id. at 1294.
    His ludicrous claim that nuclear secrets are his personal records are explicitly subject to judicial review in the very case you're citing, which renders all of that "management" argument utterly moot.

    I am reminded of the old saying that coming up with bullshit is far less time consuming than cleaning it up.

  8. #16808
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Land of the crazy
    I know a thing or two about how this works from my early career as a military officer in the '90s. The President, his cabinet level department heads, and anyone else he designates in the Federal Record have a statutory power called original classification authority, which means they can decide what information is classified and at what level. Everyone else follows security classification guides when marking documents they create. When a President decides to declassify something, they do it through an executive order. The responsible department then updates the applicable security classification guides and flows them out, usually with detailed instructions on how to remark and/or redact existing documents that were derived from the former classification guidance. At that point, all documents are still classified at the level they are marked at, until a subject matter expert has reviewed the document against the latest classification guidance and remarked it. Everything is always spelled out because people can lose their clearance and career for mishandling classified information, or end up in prison.

    In this case, none of this happened. Trump's team couldn't produce any evidence, or any information at all suggesting he declassified these documents while in office. Once he's out of office, he has no power to do anything retroactively. And he made no such claim in response to the National Archives' request to have the documents returned. The National Archives basically gave him a free pass to return these documents without explaining himself, and he blew them off. That's when it was referred to DoJ.

    At any point along the way, Trump could have said "Whoops, I don't remember how they got here. I didn't realize they were still here. Sorry about that! You can have them back. Are we good?" And it would have been dropped.

    Any claim that these were personal records is laughably absurd. No judge is going to go along with that. Trump became a private citizen on 2021-01-20 and that's when his need to know and right to access to the documents ended. Per US code, Title 19, Chapter 93, he could be fined or sentenced up to 5 years of jail time for mishandling of classified information. And that's if you assume negligence and not intent.

    The main focus of the investigation should be looking into motive. Was it just a matter of ignoring and disregarding the law, or did he take them for nefarious reasons? I never bought into the theory that Trump was groomed by Russian intelligence. I think he envied Putin's control over Russia, particularly with the media, and while in office he envied it badly. But I don't think he's a traitor. So I welcome the DoJ investigation to dig into why he retained these particular documents.

  9. #16809
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Personally betting on "we'll never know". The specifics of the classified documents won't be disclosed because classified, and while I would never accuse Trump of being particularly bright, covering his tracks is a habit for him; I'll be surprised if the DoJ can find proof that he sold info to, say, the Saudis (he totally sold something to the Saudis, they don't hand out $2b for nothin').

  10. #16810
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    I think his worldview is so transactional that I take it as a matter of course that he sold US intelligence & policy (within his meager capacity) to the highest bidder and went to extra lengths to ensure that there wasn't a paper trail because that's the Roy Cohn playbook.

    It's strange that someone would even think his interest wasn't in cashing in on his presidential power. Why else would he even become president? There's nothing else in it for him after the pomp and circumstance.

  11. #16811
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2020
    Apparently there's a thing called consequences:

    https://www.newsweek.com/special-mas...r-hour-1745581

    Raymond Dearie, the special master overseeing documents seized from Donald Trump's home, says he'll need help sifting through the more than 11,000 records—and it could come at a hefty financial cost to the former president.

    Dearie, a New York-based federal judge, laid out his plan for the review of the documents in a court filing Thursday. The plan signed by Dearie proposes that he'll require help from James Orenstein, a retired magistrate judge, who will bill Trump at a rate of $500 per hour. The potential added legal fees come after a series of recent court setbacks for Trump.
    I'm assuming the retired judge will put in something like 12 hours a week into this, so that's an extra $6000 a week Trump needs to cough up to keep that going. It certainly makes you feel a bit better about how things are going.

  12. #16812
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by demagogue View Post
    Why else would he even become president? There's nothing else in it for him after the pomp and circumstance.
    I think feeding his ego is even more important to him than his money. Indeed, his money seems to be important to him primarily for feeding his ego. Guy's in trouble now for inflating the value of his properties; Letitia claims it was for profit, but Cohen says it was so he'd score higher on Forbes.

  13. #16813
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    Yes, I didn't add that part, but I've heard that also (it's also textbook NPD) and it's what I was thinking too.
    It's built into what I was thinking a "transactional only" worldview is.

    He only cares about the dopamine hit and numbing his paper thin ego from the terror of its exposure as a fraud (cf. the network between the amygdala/limbic system & medial prefrontal cortex) that only a power grab can do for him, which one can get in a few ways familiar to pwNPD profiles ... (1) cruelty signaling to people he perceives as weak and (2) easy cash grabs that stoke his narrative that he's "savvy" & "virile", especially if it preys on, or is at the cost of, or is over the heads of, or is unstoppable by people he perceives as weak (see #1).

    Staying on the Forbes list and getting away with a cheap con that would drive communitarian types up the wall -- thus, all the better if they know about it but can't stop it (see #1 again); I don't think it works its intended effect if the public doesn't know about it, at least as rumor -- seem like they'd be right at the top of the list. It's a good point to keep in mind. The fact that selling US intelligence for a profit also includes the public perception of open treason that no one can stop seems like a feature he'd get off on than a bug or oversight, part of the reason why it's worth doing and why it getting reported on only adds to the effect, so not something he's gonna be too careful to hide.
    Last edited by demagogue; 23rd Sep 2022 at 12:22.

  14. #16814
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2005
    Location: Not Kansas
    Quote Originally Posted by heywood View Post
    The main focus of the investigation should be looking into motive. Was it just a matter of ignoring and disregarding the law, or did he take them for nefarious reasons? I never bought into the theory that Trump was groomed by Russian intelligence. I think he envied Putin's control over Russia, particularly with the media, and while in office he envied it badly. But I don't think he's a traitor. So I welcome the DoJ investigation to dig into why he retained these particular documents.
    Not a traitor, hmmmm? Then where are those 100 documents that are still missing from the empty folders marked 'Classified'; empty folders found in Trump's resort and resort office?? Those documents, according to the NARA, should have been in their folders, folders that were found to be empty. We all know by now that Trump only cared about two things: power and money, with emphasis on money. Any rocket scientist could tell you that a person stands to make billions of dollars by selling those documents or the intel contained therein. Why did President Biden revoke Trump's right to executive privilege after we fired that orange megalomaniac? Why did President Biden revoke Trump's entitlement as a former president to receive daily intelligence briefings, a first in our nation's history as all other former presidents still retain that privilege? President Biden justified both actions by saying that he considered Trump a threat to our national security, that's why. Consider also the opportunities Trump had to strike deals for the intel contained in those documents; it's a proven fact that Trump received all manor of 'guests' in his resort office and some of those guests are and have been long-suspected of being espionage agents for our country's adversaries. Then there's the fact that his staff have already testified that Trump always took a box or two of documents with him whenever he'd fly somewhere. I believe that where there's smoke, there's fire.

    It sure doesn't help that during the past six years, Trump has repeatedly sung the praises of Putin, Xi and Jong Un and while in office did his best to alienate the leaders of our allied countries. He's still spewing praise of Putin (regarding Putin's invasion of Ukraine this time). Yeah, I think you're in the minority here; the majority of citizens in this country believe that Trump really is a traitor. And while it's still only speculation, the proof seems to be mounting against #45.

  15. #16815
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2020
    Lauren Boebert mentions a bunch of real actual problems the Republicans could tackle if they win the House in November, such a inflation, border security, energy crisis etc.

    So what actual proposal does she come up with as an example of how this is gonna work?

    A law requiring Biblical citizenship classes in school.


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