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View Poll Results: How long will Trump be President?

Voters
144. You may not vote on this poll
  • 1 Term (4 Years)

    26 18.06%
  • 2 Terms (8 Years)

    51 35.42%
  • 1st Term Impeachment/Assassination

    50 34.72%
  • 2nd Term Impeachment/Assassination

    4 2.78%
  • I don't know what's going on!

    13 9.03%

Thread: ✮✮✮ !Trump Dump! ✮✮✮

  1. #1901
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2002
    Location: Pacific Northwest
    That's like four years and nine days.

  2. #1902
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    ...oh yeah, so it is. It's that last digit that gets ya.

  3. #1903
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Four years notwithstanding, I'm sure he'd be very quick to rediscover his disapproval of the electoral system if it worked against him.

  4. #1904
    Member
    Registered: Mar 1999
    Location: I can't find myself
    Quote Originally Posted by Tocky View Post
    My question is this- given that the CIA has stated that not only does the hack bear Russian foot prints but they now have eavesdropped recordings which confirm it was Russia what exactly does Julian hope to gain by kissing Republican and Russian butt?
    A well paid position with Russia Today, a presidential pardon from Trump, and maybe some Russian agents to smuggle him out of the Ecuadorian embassy?

  5. #1905
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    Former staff of wikileaks have said Assange's overriding MO is to shame whom he perceives as liberal powermakers above all else and see the establishment burn (for which it seems to me he wouldn't stop at only billionaires but also on to things like gas under $12/gl and electrical grids that don't have rolling blackouts like in the countries he admires), which is why he went after Hillary and Merkle with a vengence. He's practically a paleo-Marxist where resentment and shaming run the whole show ... which I could perceive from the start but it was disappointing news to those staff members & their reason for leaving. He doesn't really follow or care about the policy side of government, or even understands American politics, which is why he's so easy to ignore. (That said, some of the wikileak info has been insightful to me as a policy wonk, but I'm not a tempermental radical/terrorist that wants to use it to bring the system down, either.)

    This is in contrast to Snowden and Manning who were finding what they perceived as shocking data, and some of it was legit shocking and unacceptable, eg the NSA spying program, they thought the public needed to know about, and made an effort to release it legitimately. Their intention was to actually have a public debate on certain policies and they actually understand (somewhat) American politics and intend to improve the country, not just see it burn. I still think there's a certain mix of arrogance, self-importance, hysteria, and naivete in what they did, and they probably don't care enough about policy making to bother studying or understanding their own leaks--they hoped others would do it but still laud them as brave heroes--but compared to Assange, their heart was in the right place.

  6. #1906
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2009
    Location: The Spiraling Sea
    Quote Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
    There are a lot of people out there who do believe that there is no evidence of a Russian hack
    Belief, has nothing to do with it.

    As of right now there isn't any publicly available evidence to support the claim that Russia hacked the U.S. Presidential election between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrian View Post
    Four years notwithstanding, I'm sure he'd be very quick to rediscover his disapproval of the electoral system if it worked against him.
    What Trump thinks about the electoral system is irrelevant to its foundational potency. The Republic, with its electoral representatives, will continue with or without the approval of Trump...or the peanut gallery on the left.
    Last edited by Vae; 17th Dec 2016 at 05:08.

  7. #1907
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2002
    Location: London / London / London
    I'm now bracing myself for the first global conflict started on social media, I must admit. Why is the future so FUCKING LAME

  8. #1908
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2009
    Location: The Spiraling Sea
    The future will not be distributed equally.

  9. #1909
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2002
    Location: London / London / London
    Your mum isn't distributed equally

  10. #1910
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
    ...there is kind of a "we've always been at war with Eastasia" thing going on.
    What I don't understand is all the war-mongering talk against Russia.

    The winter Olympics in Sochi were less than 3 years ago. Everybody went there, big party. Our king drank a beer with Putin. Then suddenly the Russians are depicted like they are the commie Rusky scum of the fifties. It's unbelievable. Why ?

    The US (with support of the EU) kept stirring in the shit in the Ukraine. Until there was a violent revolution (people did die). And a democratically elected government was overthrown. The old government was a bunch of kleptocrats. The new government is also a bunch of kleptocrats. Except they harbor neo-nazis, are a lot more conservative, and are anti-Russian. Their dumb anti-Russian talk during the first months caused a civil war. You could argue that the West's mingling in the internal business of another country caused a civil war.

    Someone shot down a civilian plane full of Dutch passengers. Too bad. I guess it was some clueless cunt of the Ukrain rebels who did that. You can hardly blame Russia for that. And certainly not Putin. (Obama's "not a lot going on without the knowledge of Putin" is of course just more warmongering propaganda). The US army once shot down a plane full with Arab civilians by mistake. Nobody cared.

    The Krim ? There was a referendum. The inhabitants of the Krim just didn't want anything to do with the scum in Kiev. Good for them. No matter how you look at the number, nobody can deny that the large large large majority of the Krim rather was Russian. Personally I think they made the right choice. Russia is far from ideal. But always 100x better than the Ukraine.

    Syria ? The Saudis and the Gulf states financed and armed Jihadists to overthrow Assad. The US and EU backed them. Basically it was us (and our Wahhabi Arab friends) that caused a civil war in Syria. And we did everything to make sure that war doesn't end. It's actually the Russians who are making sure that war will end. In the mean time our media are spouting propaganda about how the Russians are causing the death of people.

    I really don't get it. Biden's son works for a company that wanted to get gas out of the Ukraine. Is that it ?

    I can understand why we started the civil war in Syria. I think the Clintons are big buddies with the Saudis. But I can't believe that is the reason why Obama started that war (or signed off on it). And so where the Bush family. (The 2nd Iraqi war was just a favor of the Bushes for their Saudi friends). There's also the issue of that oil pipeline.

    But why do western media keep pushing this image of "we've always been at war with Russia/EurAsia" ?

  11. #1911
    Member
    Registered: Jun 1999
    Location: Procrastination, Australia
    Crimea, Chechnya and Putin's not a big fan of NATO. Other than that, tradition as much as anything. Plus if you're not pleasantly pro-US the press turn on you pretty bad- left or right. Chavez caught a lot of that sort of thing even before he messed everything up. He was a 'corrupt communist dictator' just because he said mean things about the USA, first and foremost (sure he proved them right in the end. But it's a stopped clock sort of rightness)

  12. #1912
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2002
    Location: In the flesh.
    The main reason the Russians are depicted as they were in the fifties is because they have been acting like it. You can claim the US "stirred the shit" but unlike Russia we did not put our troops in disguise to attack nor did we arm anyone in the Ukraine as the Russian military did. They parked on the border and were observed sending arms and disguised troops across. There were recordings of them in contact with their operatives when the civilian plane was shot down with a weapon THEY supplied. My guess would be they were trying to get the very spy planes taking photos of them sending troops across.

    Let's forget that anyone who politically opposes Putin in Russia is jailed or killed. Let's overlook that any journalist who does is also. The fact is that Russia TOOK a part of another country and wants a land bridge to it (if not the whole country) and Trumps implied statement he will let that happen, that members of NATO who are not up on their dues will not be defended, has obviously spurred them to hack the DNC and influence a US election.

    I never knew the Netherlands were so anti US that they parred their news coverage to slant things in Russia's favor. Learn something new every day I guess.
    Last edited by Tocky; 17th Dec 2016 at 10:44.

  13. #1913
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2002
    Location: In the flesh.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gryzemuis View Post
    I really don't get it. Biden's son works for a company that wanted to get gas out of the Ukraine. Is that it ?
    Where in hell did you get that they want to get gas OUT of the Ukraine? Ukraine needs gas and oil desperately now that Russia has cut them off. Also we have an abundance of gas here in the US. Why in hell would we import it? You take some instance of Biden's son being on a board (which naturally the US is concerned about Ukraine's energy needs) and innuendo the holy hell out of it? Aren't you in the least concerned it makes no sense?

  14. #1914
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Location: Canuckistan GWN
    Quote Originally Posted by Vivian View Post
    I'm now bracing myself for the first global conflict started on social media, I must admit. Why is the future so FUCKING LAME
    To borrow from T.S. Elliot - This is how the world ends. Not with a bang but with a twitter.

  15. #1915
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2005
    Location: Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by Tocky View Post
    I never knew the Netherlands were so anti US that they parred their news coverage to slant things in Russia's favor. Learn something new every day I guess.
    It's not. The media here have presented wide coverage of the official investigations, which shows that the missile came from Russia. I agree it might've been a clueless rebel, but evidence points toward them being supplied the missiles directly from Russia. Russia in turn denies that, and says the missile has been fired from territory occupied by the Ukrainian government. That has also been presented in the Dutch news, because it's newsworthy. Dutch media are more anti Russia than anti US. Sometimes I wonder if it's always fair, even though I'm far from a Russia supporter.
    Last edited by Harvester; 17th Dec 2016 at 11:48.

  16. #1916
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2002
    Location: Pacific Northwest
    Quote Originally Posted by Gryzemuis View Post
    Someone shot down a civilian plane full of Dutch passengers. Too bad. I guess it was some clueless cunt of the Ukrain rebels who did that. You can hardly blame Russia for that. And certainly not Putin. (Obama's "not a lot going on without the knowledge of Putin" is of course just more warmongering propaganda). The US army once shot down a plane full with Arab civilians by mistake. Nobody cared.
    Nobody cared because it didn't happen maybe?


    I admit the bar for "shooting down civilian airliners and owning up to it" is precariously low, but it takes a psychopath to think we should let the people responsible off the hook when it happens.

  17. #1917
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by Tocky View Post
    The main reason the Russians are depicted as they were in the fifties is because they have been acting like it.
    Grossly exaggerated.

    You can claim the US "stirred the shit" but unlike Russia we did not put our troops in disguise to attack
    The US started the whole civil war in the Ukraine. They orchestrated the "revolution of the people".
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV9J6sxCs5k
    Listen to that. It is clear proof that the US was orchestrating what happened in the Ukraine.
    We are not the "good guys" in the Ukraine, that's for sure.
    "Fuck the EU".

    Let's forget that anyone who politically opposes Putin in Russia is jailed or killed.
    Grossly exaggerated. Yes, the political climate there is cold. And life for independent journalists is hard. But it's a lot worse in Saudi Arabia. And they are supposedly our friends ? Why don't we start a war against them. Or against Turkey ?

    The fact is that Russia TOOK a part of another country
    Nope. There was a democratic process. And the people of the Krim wanted to join Russia in stead of staying in Ukraine. But in the west, democracy is only democracy when the result is what the west wants. Note that we have UK leaving the EU. We almost had Scotland leave the UK. What's wrong when the Krim wanted to leave the Ukraine ? It's all propaganda by the western media. (And I'm not complaining about partisan media. I'm talking about all media following western propaganda).

    I never knew the Netherlands were so anti US that they parred their news coverage to slant things in Russia's favor.
    No. The Dutch media follow the narrative that the Russians are the new commies, and that Putin is the new devil. It's just that not all people believe what they hear on TV. I'm old enough to remember the situation three years ago (no tension with the US) and I'm old enough to remember what happened two years ago (nothing spectacular). I just don't see how we are suddenly "always been at war with EurAsia".

  18. #1918
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by Tocky View Post
    Where in hell did you get that they want to get gas OUT of the Ukraine?
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/company...kraine/5393403
    First hit in google. If you think that is partisan or colored news, I can google another dozen articles for you.

    Ukraine needs gas and oil desperately now that Russia has cut them off. Also we have an abundance of gas here in the US. Why in hell would we import it?
    Did I say anything about Ukraine selling gas to the US ? Nope. It's about Ukraine getting gas out of their own ground. For their own use. And to sell to Europe. With American technology. With American companies taking a piece of the pie from the profits.
    Note that 3 years ago, shale gas was a viable technology. Since then, oil prices went down, and shale gas is not profitable anymore.

    Aren't you in the least concerned it makes no sense?
    I'm not the one who laid that connection. Also note, in my posts I am wondering why the US suddenly targeted Russia. Ukrainian shale gas might be only one of the elements in play. Maybe it's as simple as selling more fighterjets and tanks to Poland and the other ex-Warsawpact countries. There is also the issue of Russia building two nuclear plants in Hungary (and more in other ex-Warsawpact countries, can't remember which ones, I though Belarus). American companies were trying to get the contracts, but Russia won. Stuff like this (energy) is considered "geo-politics'. And it seems you are allowed to start wars and kill people for "geo-political reasons".

  19. #1919
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2002
    Location: In the flesh.
    This is what Clinton is saying caused the Russian hack-http://www.npr.org/2016/12/16/505858...m_content=2044 but I don't believe it. Russia holding rigged elections is nothing new. She may have a persecution complex now which is blinding her to the machinations of Russia's power expansion. Of course it is possible Putin held a grudge but I figure it is more about what he is going to do than anything already said.

  20. #1920
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by Slasher View Post
    Nobody cared because it didn't happen maybe?
    Of course. The americans settled the problem out of court, without admitting guild. Paying $60M. Therefor it didn't happen. That's the American way.

    but it takes a psychopath to think we should let the people responsible off the hook when it happens.
    If they could catch who did it, and have even the tiniest amount of proof, I'm all for it. Unfortunately our Ukrainian friend destroyed all evidence they had (radar, logs, conversations) on the day it happened. My guess: someone was scared that it was actually the Ukrainian army (or one of their privantly funded "volunteer squads") who shot down the plane by mistake. Again, it's all speculation, because our friends destroyed all evidence they had.

    Note, I am not a "russian lover" or a commie. I'm just a concerned citizen that is wondering why we are heading for war.

  21. #1921
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2002
    Location: In the flesh.
    Look Gryzemius, I'm old enough to remember Brezhnev. I understand that we use our diplomats and spies to influence. All countries do. For some reason this latest generation doesn't seem to know their own countries do it as well. Perhaps I am overly cynical about Russia due to my age but I see the signs of renewed expansion. Watch and wait. I could of course be wrong.

    As for the other stuff... Jesus dude, Russia has been working on Krim as you call it for over a decade. There were articles in the National Geographic about it long ago. Their operatives seized that place and THEN held a vote. How fair do you think that was? Maybe part of the Netherlands would like to be Russia. Maybe they can work on that next.

    And holy hell man, of course Ukraine needs gas! They have been cut off by Russia and desperately need it! Of course we will help them with shale fracking or whatever we have to in order to keep them from freezing. But by all means put your "gotcha" on that and call it evil. Do we want Ukraine to stay friendly to the west? Of course! Do we want them not to freeze? Of course! And if Europe is depending on gas from Ukraine then I feel sorry for it. There is not going to be that amount. Nowhere near what Russia will hold over everyone's heads to get what they want.

    But you go ahead and believe it will. The Netherlands is going to need gas that they have denied themselves by not fracking. If they don't get it from Ukraine (and I will be surprised if they do for long if they do at all) then you will be under Russia's thumb. Like that do you? It would be nice if price could be held down so Europe can pull farther from recession but man I think you are overestimating the impact of Ukraine gas. After they have gained some funds from any sales to shore up their budget shortfalls and pay their overdue bills then I doubt you will see much from that region. They have a need greater than they can fill now on their own. Russia tried to control them with that very need. Is it any wonder they want their energy needs filled?

    What exactly are you going for here anyway? A teenage gotcha? A US is evil and Russia is innocent? What?

  22. #1922
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2002
    Location: Pacific Northwest
    Quote Originally Posted by Gryzemuis View Post
    Of course. The americans settled the problem out of court, without admitting guild. Paying $60M. Therefor it didn't happen. That's the American way.
    You said the army shot down an airliner full of Arabians. Where was the army involved? Where is the airliner full of Arabs?

    Why do you think we should listen to your arguments when you make sweeping generalizations that fail to get even the most basic facts correct?

  23. #1923
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by Tocky View Post
    I'm old enough to remember Brezhnev.
    When I said that I am old enough to remember what happened 3 years ago, that was a joke. I'm sorry I didn't make that more clear.

    And it is obvious you follow the hype that Russia is suddenly our big bad enemy. No point in discussing any further. We (US+EU) are the good guys. Russia bad. Putin bad. US brings only freedom and democracy to the world. Hurray.

    What exactly are you going for here anyway? A teenage gotcha? A US is evil and Russia is innocent? What?
    Renzatic wrote: '...there is kind of a "we've always been at war with Eastasia" thing going on.'
    All I did was point out that if you replace Eastasia with Russia, you get something that is very close to what is currently going regarding the way our politicians and media are portraying Russia during the last 3 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slasher View Post
    Where was the army involved? Where is the airliner full of Arabs?
    Is this a serious question ?
    You even linked a picture of the USS Vincennes ?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655
    Second sentence on that wiki-page: "On 3 July 1988, the aircraft operating on this route was shot down by the United States Navy guided missile cruiser USS Vincennes under the command of William C. Rogers III."
    "The aircraft, an Airbus A300 B2-203, was destroyed by SM-2MR surface-to-air missiles fired from Vincennes. All 290 people on board died."

  24. #1924
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2002
    Location: In the flesh.
    I think Slasher means the Army was not involved but the Navy and that Iranians are not Arabs.

    And no I don't think in simplistic terms. Russia bad US good ug. But I also don't fall for that rebellious teenager type crap that makes me feel if it is western it is bad and self hatred is cool. I don't follow hype but actions and I have seen Russia flexing her muscles and grabbing land. That is just a natural fact.

    Oh and don't worry about the US now that Trump is in office. He will let the Russians do whatever they want to pay them back for their *cough* contribution to his campaign. You should be happy about that right?
    Last edited by Tocky; 18th Dec 2016 at 00:44.

  25. #1925
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2002
    Location: Pacific Northwest
    The Vincennes was operated by the U.S. Navy at the time. That is not the army.

    For the last time, where was the airplane full of Arabs? Go on, your own link even gives a breakdown of the victims' nationalities.

    When we're flinging vitriolic accusations across the board, we should get our facts straight first.

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