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Thread: Ghost rules discussion

  1. #276
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2000
    Location: Land of enchantment
    Sorry I am late responding.

    The Supreme Ghosting rule with the current confusion regards the loadout store:
    "5. Inventory and Weapons: You can not purchase weapons and inventory items from the store at loadout. This thief doesn’t even go to the store to chance being seen and identified purchasing said items. Use nothing that would leave a trace or remnant of evidence. No Potions can be used at all. Rope Arrows and Scouting Orbs can be used but they must be retrieved. Holy water vials are not considered potions and are allowed."

    First, I should say that I did not write the Supreme rules. I had a hand in writing the rules of the original ghost mode and early interpretations. I would not have written Supreme rule 5 the way it is. That said, following is my interpretation of what is written.

    To me, the key sentence is "You can not purchase weapons and inventory items from the store at loadout." The key word is "purchase". That means to me that free items are OK to grab because free is not a purchase.

    I think that the sentence "This thief doesn’t even go to the store to chance being seen and identified purchasing said items." is pointless. The loadout screen is unavoidable when starting the game if the author incorporates it. I would delete this sentence if given the opportunity.

    I see no essential difference between a free item that contained in the loadout store and a free item that the author places in initial inventory. Examples might be lockpick, a map, or a clue. To me, is is just a mechanism the author uses to supply the item. The store does give the opportunity to avoid taking the item, but so what? There is no difference in game play with either approach if the player takes the item, which should be allowed, as it is free.

    One possible sticking point is that an item may change the objectives. To me, that is a separate issue from the loadout store and whether the items is in initial inventory or found in game. In any case, you can frob the item or not, thus changing the objectives or not. My personal preference is to take such items and deal with the changed objectives. That way, you get to play the complete mission. To me, the idea of saying that the changed objectives impedes or prevents ghosting and then going back (reloading) and refusing to take the item is a bit artificial. Still, I would regard that as a personal choice and not covered by any rule, unless I missed a rule somewhere.

    These are just my personal opinions. I would be happy to discuss them.
    Last edited by smithpd; 11th Feb 2021 at 17:20.

  2. #277
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2016
    Location: France
    If the key word is "purchase," then buying anything from in-game stores such as the one in Calendra's Cistern should not be allowed for Supreme. That's why to me the key word is "loadout screen" and everything available there.

  3. #278
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    Thank you for your reply, Peter. I agree with your reasoning, and largely agree with your conclusion. Marbleman summed it up nicely that 'purchase' and 'loadout screen' are key terms. I would also say like you Peter, that free items should be allowed for Supreme. In game stores to me are also ok then, because there you can control the alerts, and the rule specifies during loadout. Is that your take on it also marbleman? So far, I can only remember UV that felt even free items should be disallowed.

    Edit: As for Calendra's Cistern, you don't need to buy anything from the store for Supreme after all. You can bring Adrius' head there and he'll eat the dried frog for free. I show this in my segmented run.

  4. #279
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2000
    Location: Land of enchantment
    I agree, Klatremus, that in-game stores are OK to enter provided that the rules of Supreme are adhered to, that is, no alerts, etc. Apart from alerts, I see no difference conceptually between an in-game store and the loadout store. Again, I don't like the sentence "This thief doesn’t even go to the store..." because I think it is pointless no matter what form the store takes.

  5. #280
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2016
    Location: France
    That's not my take; if the key word is "purchase" then any purchses should be disallowed, including in in-game stores. If the key word is "loadout screen," then even free items should not be taken. It just seems like the rule is too easy to bend when it requires both "loadout screen" and "purchase." However, I seem to be the minority here so if you all think that it's fine, so shall it be.

  6. #281
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    But can't both of them be key terms, marbleman? They are both in the rule, so they are both contributing to the rule's intention. It is clear that the original makers intended for it only to be during the pre-game store, but not to include any other transaction-like events going on during the mission, whether it be an in-game store or otherwise. Secondly, it is focusing on purchases, those you would make by going to an actual store or interacting with a business man of sorts. That's why I think I agree with Galaer and Peter Smith now, that Supreme should allow free items, but the whole rule is only referring to the loadout screen, no other situations.

    @Peter: I agree that the sentence you are referring to is pointless, at least it doesn't provide any additional information that is helpful in discerning what is allowed or not. It does provide us with the principle behind the rule though, but other than that it's not very useful.

  7. #282
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2000
    Location: Land of enchantment
    @marbleman,
    I agree with klatremus' response, immediately above. I was referring to "purchase" as key because "purchase" (in the store) is the only action that is disallowed in that sentence.

  8. #283
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2013
    Are there any free loadout items in the OMs? If there is not, then I would interpret the use of the term "pirchase" as just being a product of the rules being written in a context where paying was all they knew. Rather than it having special significance and importance in and of itself.

    If the OMs had had optional free potions and water arrows, I have a feeling that a different term would have been used.

    Just an opinion obviously, but I can't think of a reason why whether the optional advantages cost money or not would matter. Whether you are creating the rule from the perspective of simply making gameplay harder. Or from the perspective of restricting player actions to be in accordance with how you think a ghost thief would behave.

  9. #284
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    So my understanding of smithpd comment is - you can buy request in order to have complete experience. No idea if it also touches requests for which you need to spend money. Also not long ago was discussion about floating golden skull and it was allowed taking it, because it is special mechanic implemented by author. Sure, for supreme skull can't be taken, because it emits light, but that's different story. The thing is that buying readables triggering new objectives in loadout store is also special mechanic created by author. He/she expects player to buy it to have complete experience with mission.

  10. #285
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    How about "You cannot acquire equipment that aids ghosting from either the loading screen or in-game shops."?

    Because that is what the original rule is meant to prevent, right? People buying extra rope arrows or scouting orbs or whatever could aid them. As for other items that don't help you, rule 13 should take care of that. That only leaves items that are needed for the mission, whether purchased or not.

  11. #286
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    @Galaer: No, Peter Smith did not say you could buy anything from the loadout screen, even if it gives you a more complete experience. He was talking about free items that do so.

    @Cigam & Starker: The Supreme rules were written and released in 2002. I'm not sure if there were free items available in fan missions up until that point, but someone else who have played all the fms and remember can feel free to chime in there. I do know however that there were fan missions (Calendra's Cistern from 2000 for example) that did use in-game stores, so that was definitely well known. Since Sneak and Clayman made sure to formulate the rule to include the words "store at loadout", to me it is pretty clear that they did not intend to include any other types of stores. If the rule meant to prevent in-game shops or free items, to me it's likely that the rule would already include wording of such.

    I suggest the following clarification to Supreme rule #5:
    Inventory and Weapons: You can not purchase weapons and inventory items from the store at loadout. This thief doesnít even go to the store to chance being seen and identified purchasing said items. Free items at loadout are allowed to be taken. Stores other than at loadout, such as in-game shops, are ok to use as long as you are not spotted and do not break any other rules. Use nothing that would leave a trace or remnant of evidence. No Potions can be used at all. Rope Arrows and Scouting Orbs can be used but they must be retrieved. Holy water vials are not considered potions and are allowed.

    This is not a change to the rule, but as stated above, a clarification. This is in order to avoid prior reports from being invalidated. Let me know your thoughts.

  12. #287
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    @klatremus: I'm talking about bolded sentence:

    Quote Originally Posted by smithpd View Post
    One possible sticking point is that an item may change the objectives. To me, that is a separate issue from the loadout store and whether the items is in initial inventory or found in game. In any case, you can frob the item or not, thus changing the objectives or not. My personal preference is to take such items and deal with the changed objectives. That way, you get to play the complete mission. To me, the idea of saying that the changed objectives impedes or prevents ghosting and then going back (reloading) and refusing to take the item is a bit artificial. Still, I would regard that as a personal choice and not covered by any rule, unless I missed a rule somewhere.
    Of course, smithpd is talking about free items. But it feels that this last comment is about all items giving new objectives. And simply, not buying objective for money just because spending money is a bust, feels like artificial barrier for supreme ghosters like you, klatremus. You will not manage to play these few FMs on absolutely the hardest difficulty, because it's a bust.

  13. #288
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    Oh so you think items that trigger objectives should be allowed even though they cost money? I understand your point, but that would clearly go against that rule's original intent. The makers clearly knew about such items as they are part of OMs. Yes it limits Supreme, but you can still choose to buy them and take the bust and try to finish the rest without more busts.

  14. #289
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    Quote Originally Posted by klatremus View Post
    The makers clearly knew about such items as they are part of OMs.
    No, they aren't. There is no single request in loadout store in any OM that gives new objective. Lost City Contract doesn't give you any objective. I doubt FM makers know perfectly well what are supreme ghost rules. And I'm saying that it limits Supreme Ghost in the very stupid and artificial way. So yes, I think it should be allowed to buy objectives in loadout store for money. By the way, there is no rule about spending money. You can do that in in-game stores, because you can avoid alert. But in loadout store there is also no visible alert from shopkeeper. I think I agree more with Starker about this matter to prevent buying equipment in no matter what shop: loadout or inside mission. Also buying request can't be used as a tool to make supreme ghosting easier.

  15. #290
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    I stand corrected on the objective changing items in OMs, I forgot it only changed loot amount. But there are FMs that trigger objectives that can be purchased, and I guarantee you Sneak and Clayman who wrote the rules knew about those gameplay mechanics.

    There are many artifical elements in both sets of ghost rules, so that is not what decides which rules stand or not. We are not changing the rule to suddenly now allow purchases, whether they change objectives or not. What we are looking to do is clarifying the rule, specifying whether the rule as it currently is includes free items and also if it includes in-game purchases. My arguments from post #286 thus stand.

  16. #291
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    Quote Originally Posted by klatremus View Post
    I stand corrected on the objective changing items in OMs, I forgot it only changed loot amount. But there are FMs that trigger objectives that can be purchased, and I guarantee you Sneak and Clayman who wrote the rules knew about those gameplay mechanics.

    There are many artifical elements in both sets of ghost rules, so that is not what decides which rules stand or not. We are not changing the rule to suddenly now allow purchases, whether they change objectives or not. What we are looking to do is clarifying the rule, specifying whether the rule as it currently is includes free items and also if it includes in-game purchases. My arguments from post #286 thus stand.
    From what I know there are only 3 FMs using this gimmick: Last Among Forsaken (2018), Feast of Pilgrims (2020) and Sabotage in Eastport (2021). So tell me, how in the world Sneak and Clayman could know that FM creators from almost 2 decades later could put requests triggering new objectives in loadout store? How could they know that? They couldn't.

    I'm not sure, but it feels like you are running away from the problem. It feels like you are sticking so much to the original rules that your explanation feels really far fetched. Finally finished watching Last Among Forsaken and like I think you did good job in supreme ghosting it, I was a bit disappointed that you avoided buying request. Would you replay it again with request knowing that it will fail your supreme ghost run even before mission will begin. Somehow I doubt that. I think scoring that early bust would be too discouraging for you to continue. That's why it feels like you are mentally blocking yourself.

  17. #292
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    From what you know indeed. But then you don't know about Calendras Legacy missions 2-3 from 2002 that both have objectives for sale that trigger objectives. Sneak (who wrote the original Supreme rules) have massive Supreme reports on both those missions where he chose not to buy those tips at loadout, so again yes, he definitely knew about it and wasn't predicting the future 20 years in advance.

    As for the last paragraph you wrote, what evidence do you have for making such accusations? What if I told you in my prep ghost run ahead of my recording I did buy the request and perfect Supreme ghosted the entire rest of the mission including taking all 8 relics? Or when I supreme ghosted the rest of Sabotage at Soulforge after busting even regular Ghost from the camera at the very beginning? Not only do I think your accusation of my mental state is baseless, but it is outright rude. If you think I take discouragement from busting early, then you know absolutely nothing about how I ghost missions. Please refrain from such comments in the future and stay on topic.

    And I'm sticking to the rules because this is a Ghost Rules Discussion thread. What explanation is it that feels far fetched exactly? Please explain yourself.
    Last edited by klatremus; 13th Feb 2021 at 13:14.

  18. #293
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    @klatremus: I'm apologize for being rude. I agree, I went a bit too far here. Awesome that you tried to do that. As for Sabotage at Soulforge - it's a bit different, because it's happening during mission, not shortly before it. It is annoying ghost bust, but it's happening after loading mission. For Sneak's reports - I missed that, but it's not like I ever read other people ghost reports and I played this missions ages ago. I guess I should congratulate you reading every report carefully. It's hidden somewhere in the middle. But from what I noticed he explained this rule as not buying anything at all in loadout store - in other words no matter if it's free or not. That's how you wanted to approach this rule earlier. Since you are proposing this revolution about free items being allowed, what's the difference between buying objective for free and for money in regards of supreme ghost rules. And there is no difference. You are being seen by neutral shopkeeper, who allows you to buy request or take it for free. And there is no real bust about it.

    As for far fetched explanation. This will be longer. So during my ghosting career I participated in many discussions about rules and many times I got surprised by final results. Not long ago I discussed about taking rope arrows just to grab more loot. Even though it's against the rules, you allowed that, because it's easier to get more loot. There was also this discussion about deactivating traps and your explanation was that rule doesn't mention that, so it should be allowed. I was super surprised that you allowed this leeway.

    At one point I asked community about silent statues AI. It was about situation that you are in front of statue, so it's definitely see you, but it doesn't speak and until you watch it, it doesn't move. So I can hide in shadow and look at it, so that it will eventually calm down. I was sure that other people response will be - "no, it's still a ghost bust". But few people said otherwise, smithpd mentioned this "To me, it seems pointless to interpret the ghost rules based on what might happen "normally" if you can create a situation in which the normal behavior does not happen." Not gonna lie, I was really surprised to hear that answer.

    Another thing I'm surprised is you are allowed to manipulate AI into fights if you do that without alerting it or doing any exploit. You can abuse save/loads, so enemies will kill each other in the most advantageous way for supreme ghoster. You can also leave rope arrows or door opened for AI to see, because usually it doesn't alert to it. Something that feels against spirit of supreme ghosting.

    Back to our discussion. I'm talking that sometimes you give leeway while ignoring rules, some other times you are strict with rule to give yourself leeway and some other times you are very strict with rule to not give yourself a leeway. It really isn't consistent. You and marbleman accused me overusing real world factor. But on the other hand you did these "I think the key factor should be "purchase", "No, I think the key factor should be "loadout store"". It felt for me that you are doing the same thing as I did with real world rules. In other words it felt like you are overanalizing this rule. That's why I said what I said.

    Again, I apologize for being rude. And sorry for late response - I was reading Sneak's reports to find where he speaks about not buying stuff in loadout stores.
    Last edited by Galaer; 13th Feb 2021 at 14:41.

  19. #294
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    It's ok Galaer, no worries. Apology accepted. I took a while too. Was out flying a kite with the kids, and also got my second round of COVID vaccine.

    I used Soulforge as example because this is the closest I've ever been to busting before the mission even started. I never buy anything ahead of time besides in my prep run before the recording.

    Sneak says it's not allowed to buy anything, and the rule uses the word purchase. You don't buy or purchase free items, instead you are given them or choose to take them. That's the difference. The whole point is that free items could be viewed as being given to you by someone you trust, and not by going to a public store.

    You talk about leeway, but in all those examples you give we are not doing that, we are instead seeing if those situations break a rule. If it doesn't, you are ok. Were not excusing a bust, we are arguing that they are not busts. Take the rope arrow in Shipping and Receiving for example. I needed the rope, so its allowed to take it. Sure there is a very tedious way to avoid it by making 3-4 big stacks, which I'm not even sure can be done for Supreme by the way, have you tried it? And you talk about consistency. If I could've avoided one of the other big stacks I've done, for example in black frog mission 2, by taking an extra rope arrow, I would have done so easily. So I am consistent, it's just different missions require different solutions.

    Then you mention deactivation of traps. Yes that is allowed bc it's not in the rules like you said. It's not leeway when it's not in the rules. Leeway is if it is in the rules but you allow it anyway.

    The silent statue was allowed bc it doesn't alert or become a real enemy until you take the book. At that point it will alert and you can bust. It's not leeway there either, the rule talks about alerts and you aren't alerted.

    Manipulation of AI is not allowed at all, not sure where you got that from. Its allowed to reload and have the scenario replay to get a better outcome yes but that's not manipulating the enemy. The rules say nothing about reloading. In fact, Supreme requires more reloading than any mode.

    I never leave doors or ropes behind unless I absolutely have to, for the exact reason you mention. But it is allowed bc the rule only talks about alerts. If you don't trigger alerts it's no bust. Again, not leeway just following the rule.

    And as for the loadout screen rule, if you read a few posts above I said to marbleman that we shouldn't focus only on 1 or 2 words in the rule, because all the words used are important. If you only take 1 word and apply that to your situation then you are indeed bending the rule to your advantage. That indeed is leeway and that's not what's being done here.
    Last edited by klatremus; 14th Feb 2021 at 02:21.

  20. #295
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    About AI manipulation: there was something you mentioned about I think it was Calendra Legacy or Calendra Cistern. Don't remember. You mentioned something about manipulating AI to kill everyone on it's path or something like that. But I think it's also allowed to open door, so 2 opposite forces may spot you and begin fight. That's what I mean about AI manipulation. But even though it's allowed saving and reloading just to have a positive result of the fight, feels a bit like exploiting mechanics.

    About silent statue AI: no, you have it all wrong. I'm not talking about statue from Alcazar, but rather about statues from Malazar's Inscrutable Tower or Darkness Walks With Us. These 2 FMs uses this AI and it only moves when it sees you and you aren't looking at it.

    About traps: I mentioned that I don't like explanation that it's allowed to deactivate them, because rule is talking only about security measures. You can't activate, but you can deactivate traps? It sounds a bit far fetched.

    About rope: You left it hanging in Last Among Forsaken when you were trying to get to thieves area, so zombie below could spot it and rope wasn't in shadow. About door: you left door to balcony opened in Mission X for quite a long time. Nearby patroller could see that many times. And you did that on purpose. Good thing nobody was programmed to 1st alert because of that in these missions.

  21. #296
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2016
    Location: France
    You know that when you're too far from AIs they deactivate (just freeze in place), right? Major AI manipulation there, dunno how anyone can claim Supreme success in any mission.

  22. #297
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    @Galaer: You're talking about Adrius in Calendra's Cistern. Assembling his body is required by objective, and then he goes on a killing spree afterwards, which is unavoidable. Leaving the door open to make Adrius and the zombie fight is the manipulation you're talking about yes. However, this doesn't lead to anyone getting killed because they are both immortal. And also more importantly, this was done because there is a glitch in the mission where the zombie doesn't disappear after its master dies. That was fixed in the NewDark update of the mission where you don't have to get Adrius down there at all since the zombie disappears along with its master.

    Yes I was confused about the statue. Haven't played those misssions.

    You can't compare triggering a trap with deactivating it. Springing a trap is clear evidence of a thief's passing. Deactivating the trap which prevents it from springing is not mentioned in the rule and is therefore ok. It would be like saying since you can't remove light sources for Supreme then you also shouldn't be able to turn on light sources. Well you can, since it doesn't say anything about that in the rules. Triggering a trap is a form of detection, deactivating it is not. Removing security systems is turning off cameras or alarm systems and has nothing to do with traps, that's an entirely different rules. Like comparing apples and oranges.

    I don't remember the door left open in Mission X, but I'm sure you're right. I don't like doing that, but since it's not against the rules unless there is an alert you are ok. Again, these are not examples of bending the rules to your advantage or making excuses, they are just following the rules. If the AI were programmed to give alerts to the doors or ropes, then it would be a bust and I would do whatever I can to avoid using that method.

    --------------------------------

    Another quite major thing that I just found out. I pulled out an old walkthrough/ghost report of Sneak's for Calendra's Legacy to see if it was the same as the report linked to in the Ghost Report thread, and it is not! In his write-up for Mission 3 from May 10th 2002 he writes: "Literally the no purchases rule applies only to weapons, ammunition and potions but I clicked right through it." See THIS page I made on my website. Click on the bottom link (mission 3 working papers). Scroll down to the headline that says Friday, May 10th, 2002, 07:00. The first paragraph there is where I took the quote from. It seems then that to Sneak that it was ok to buy anything that was not weapons, ammunition and potions, including keys or documents. I don't think that's how he applied it though given these write-ups. I wish we could get in contact with him still. I think this solidifies the fact that free items (at least if it is referring to documents and tips) should be allowed for Supreme.

    There might be more nuggets of advice on the ghost modes and rules from all those documents, but I haven't had time to read through them properly. Perhaps you'd like to see through them, Galaer? The working papers are mostly the same but a bit longer than the other ones, but there might be some differences. They are very interesting reads for sure.

  23. #298
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by klatremus View Post
    You can't compare triggering a trap with deactivating it. Springing a trap is clear evidence of a thief's passing. Deactivating the trap which prevents it from springing is not mentioned in the rule and is therefore ok. It would be like saying since you can't remove light sources for Supreme then you also shouldn't be able to turn on light sources. Well you can, since it doesn't say anything about that in the rules. Triggering a trap is a form of detection, deactivating it is not. Removing security systems is turning off cameras or alarm systems and has nothing to do with traps, that's an entirely different rules. Like comparing apples and oranges.
    If someone sets up traps and comes back next day to find them deactivated, would that not be extremely suspicious and clear evidence that someone had been there, though?

  24. #299
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    @marbleman: in original discussion about statue AI I was asking this question in terms of regular ghost run, but replies still surprised me.

    @klatremus: about your findings: it only means that even Sneak was a bit confused about this rule. No idea what to do about that.

    About deactivating traps: Sure, there is no rule about deactivating them, but shouldn't it be added? Also deactivating traps means easier approach for thief and also traps can damage Garrett. On the other hand turning on light makes harder job for Garrett to sneak through room and turning on/off light never directly damage Garrett. I don't see any point of putting deactivation of traps and turning on light on equal level.

    About rope arrow: Again, sorry if it annoys you. You mentioned that rope arrow is needed in this mission, but no, rope arrow isn't needed to complete any objective. You mention that using crates would be tedious, but you are doing even more tedious things in your runs. I would say setup for kidnapping Cavador is more tedious. I remember watching Travis Whitsitt trying for couple of hours to do this technique. In Cragscleft you are waiting 10+ hours for novice to move forward. In Angelwatch you are waiting another 10+ hours for golden child to move away. I would say these activities are more tedious than stacking crates. There is no shame in skipping optional tedious loot. Also you would only need crates to climb high places in Building B. Sure there is elevator secret in one of hangars, but it's allowed to shoot water arrow into switch. As for doing supreme ghost without rope arrows, I may at some point do that. Not now though, because these tedious activities scares me out of even regular ghosting OMs.

  25. #300
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2016
    Location: France
    @Starker: Well, if someone comes back and sees all the gold missing from their house, they would think the same.

    @Galaer: But a crate is an unnecessary pickup either. You don't need to make a crate stack just to get some loot either. In fact, a lot of loot is unnecesarry. You don't need to pick it up to complete the mission, so why do it then?

    I don't agree with all the rules and interpretations myself, guys, but if there's something I understood from all these discussions is that you shouldn't think of them in absolute terms. Otherwise, your options for what you actually can do for Supreme will be meager, and the point of all ghosting playstyles is still to have fun with the game, not the most hardcorest experience possible.

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