Ghost rules discussion

[downwinder]

i got a question if you pick up dewdrop on a mech mission and 3 mechs are are in range and dewdrop automatically triggers does that break ghost ,as since the ghost of dewdrop appears in air i feel its ghosting :P

of course its not supreme ghost,unless its a requirement of objectives to have dewdrop for objective to complete mission

[Galaer]

I understand, my problem with understanding mirror was that this is part of the story. Sure, it doesn't specifically says that you need to help ghost or destroy mirror. Through the whole mission you are guided by ghost and instructed what to do. So instruction of destroying mirror felt a bit like objective even though it doesn't appear in objective screen.

Good example would be your Supreme Ghost report for The Dark Mod - Training mission, klatremus. You excuse all actions that bust ghost even though you don't have any objective that says to do training. Objective only says that there is no formal objectives and you can quit to menu. But even then you excuse that, because you are specifically guided by readables. In Scarlet Cascabel I'm guided by ghost. What do you think?

[klatremus]

Your response is kind of proving what Peter Smith and I said. When excuses are made in one mission, then players want to apply that to other missions also. I don't think your example is comparable at all. This is a training mission. This is my logic given in the report's introduction:

"Since it’s a training mission, with no proper way to finish, I considered the instructions given throughout the various sections a replacement for a regular task list. Anything directed in the in-game notes or books would supersede busts towards the ghost mode, as if it was explicitly stated in a given objective. That would excuse for example knockouts or use of weapons if it was stated in a parchment for that section. If stated in a different section, it was not excused. This was the only way to keep it fair, yet challenging."

I think this description is a good enough explanation for why I made those readables count as objectives, since there are no objectives in the mission overall. Although I haven't played Scarlet Cascabel, the ghost's instructions do not sound like objectives.

[Galaer]

But there is objective in Training mission. It's just it has nothing to do without mission. But I don't think it's excusable to make readables to be objectives as a replacement just because there is no other objectives in objectives screen. I think back then you just made excuse from the rule you and Peter Smith mentioned before. Just like you said - this rule excuse ghost busts only when you have objective on objectives screen. Different situation just because it's training mission? I don't think so. Also rule doesn't mention anything about lack of objectives. So you should just avoid some instructions that can create ghost busts.

As for ghost she says directly: "Now, quickly destroy mirror and free me". By the way, it's the only way to progress the mission and never before in any mission I had situation when NPC asks me to destroy something without giving direct objective. That's what confused me.

[klatremus]

The mission's own objective list says: "There are no formal objectives nor difficulty levels in this trainer mission. Use Quit Mission on the main menu to finish." So no, there are no objectives. When the mission itself says so, I think it's pretty clear. An objective is a goal or a task that can be completed and checked off. There is nothing to complete here and no way to finish the mission. That is why I chose to treat each of the sections as small mini missions as part of a bigger hub, and treat the instructions you get in the readables and pop-up messages as objectives. They directly tell you what to do, so they basically replace any objectives you would get in a task list. There is even an optional objective to find all 10 healing potions hidden in one of the areas.

Also, the rule does not say "objectives on objective screen" like you said. It just refers to objectives. So if you get objectives from somewhere else instead of the objective screen, then the rules can still apply to those. And if you only go by what the information in the objective list in the training mission tells you, then all you need to do is start the mission and play for 1 second, then exit and say you ghosted it, Supreme ghosted it even. Nah, I don't think so Galaer. I think I was totally in the right to do what I did.

Since this mission is 1) deviating in structure from any other normal mission, and 2) not even for the regular Thief games but the Dark Mod, we can't take such a special case and extrapolate that to other regular missions. I made that decision since there were no normal objectives, not to excuse busts, but to give the mission a structure that made the playthrough fair and gave it something tangible to reference back to (as in the written instructions). No to mention the fact that the situation you're referring to is not even comparable. The Scarlet Cascabel has normal objectives, so you can easily apply the ghost rules normally.

If it's the only way to progress, then you're gonna have to treat it as a bust. There is no shame in that.

[Galaer]

I'm sorry, klatremus, but you just said "Unless it is explicitly stated in the objectives, it can't be excused". What did you mean if not objective screen? I think everyone (even you) think about it as objectives from objective screen. So why do you think differently for this one mission? I mean lack of objectives is nothing new. It appears in couple of missions. But is it really all right to create new objectives for your own convenience?

Also smithpd mentioned: "I think that it is not advisable to create an endless set of exceptions. I regret many of the exceptions that we allowed in the past because they are cause of much discussion and desire for even more exceptions". And to that you said: "if we start making exceptions, then other players will see that and start asking for other exceptions". You made 1 exception from this rule, so you shouldn't be surprised that other ghosters also asks for exceptions. And the only real difference is the scale of this exception. I asked for just 1 situation, you made much bigger exception based on every readable in the mission. And while doing most of instruction doesn't lead to any bust, there is couple of them that create ghost busts. And also your excuse is worse, because actions you make in this mission are absolutely optional. So you can avoid ghost busts, but still you decided to excuse them and violate this rule. While in my situation - I don't have any choice, it's forced ghost bust.

Also this:"Also, the rule does not say "objectives on objective screen" like you said. It just refers to objectives. So if you get objectives from somewhere else instead of the objective screen, then the rules can still apply to those". If that's what you mean, then I'm sorry, ghost's request that doesn't appear in objective screen is also an objective by this definition.

And this pretty much explains what you need to do: "And if you only go by what the information in the objective list in the training mission tells you, then all you need to do is start the mission and play for 1 second, then exit and say you ghosted it, Supreme ghosted it even". In this couple of missions without objectives I could do that, sometimes I actually did that when there is no loot. But usually I try to get as much loot as possible within ghosting rules, return to start and use cheat to skip mission (no idea if there is one in TDM). But that's literally what you needed to do. And there is really no shame in doing that.

[klatremus]

I appreciate your input Galaer, but I'm not gonna continue discussing this. I will just keep repeating my previous arguments. You can watch my video or read my report for my justifications. I don't think it's even comparable to any other "normal" mission. Look forward to your report on Scarlet Cascabel. It's one of the first missions on my list after T2 and T2X.

[Galaer]

I see, don't worry I will call my situation a ghost bust. But to be honest, I wonder what other ghosters say about your exception. Video about this Training mission can be found here.

[klatremus]

Thank you for the link. Yes I always encourage viewers, and especially other ghosters, to comment on my videos or reports. In this mission especially, I asked for feedback on ghosting since it was the first video I had done on the Dark Mod, and I was unsure on how to implement some of the rules. Nobody so far (7 years later) has commented on my choice in treating the readables and pop-ups as objectives.