Ghost rules discussion

[downwinder]

i got a question if you pick up dewdrop on a mech mission and 3 mechs are are in range and dewdrop automatically triggers does that break ghost ,as since the ghost of dewdrop appears in air i feel its ghosting :P

of course its not supreme ghost,unless its a requirement of objectives to have dewdrop for objective to complete mission

[Galaer]

I understand, my problem with understanding mirror was that this is part of the story. Sure, it doesn't specifically says that you need to help ghost or destroy mirror. Through the whole mission you are guided by ghost and instructed what to do. So instruction of destroying mirror felt a bit like objective even though it doesn't appear in objective screen.

Good example would be your Supreme Ghost report for The Dark Mod - Training mission, klatremus. You excuse all actions that bust ghost even though you don't have any objective that says to do training. Objective only says that there is no formal objectives and you can quit to menu. But even then you excuse that, because you are specifically guided by readables. In Scarlet Cascabel I'm guided by ghost. What do you think?

[klatremus]

Your response is kind of proving what Peter Smith and I said. When excuses are made in one mission, then players want to apply that to other missions also. I don't think your example is comparable at all. This is a training mission. This is my logic given in the report's introduction:

"Since it’s a training mission, with no proper way to finish, I considered the instructions given throughout the various sections a replacement for a regular task list. Anything directed in the in-game notes or books would supersede busts towards the ghost mode, as if it was explicitly stated in a given objective. That would excuse for example knockouts or use of weapons if it was stated in a parchment for that section. If stated in a different section, it was not excused. This was the only way to keep it fair, yet challenging."

I think this description is a good enough explanation for why I made those readables count as objectives, since there are no objectives in the mission overall. Although I haven't played Scarlet Cascabel, the ghost's instructions do not sound like objectives.

[Galaer]

But there is objective in Training mission. It's just it has nothing to do without mission. But I don't think it's excusable to make readables to be objectives as a replacement just because there is no other objectives in objectives screen. I think back then you just made excuse from the rule you and Peter Smith mentioned before. Just like you said - this rule excuse ghost busts only when you have objective on objectives screen. Different situation just because it's training mission? I don't think so. Also rule doesn't mention anything about lack of objectives. So you should just avoid some instructions that can create ghost busts.

As for ghost she says directly: "Now, quickly destroy mirror and free me". By the way, it's the only way to progress the mission and never before in any mission I had situation when NPC asks me to destroy something without giving direct objective. That's what confused me.

[klatremus]

The mission's own objective list says: "There are no formal objectives nor difficulty levels in this trainer mission. Use Quit Mission on the main menu to finish." So no, there are no objectives. When the mission itself says so, I think it's pretty clear. An objective is a goal or a task that can be completed and checked off. There is nothing to complete here and no way to finish the mission. That is why I chose to treat each of the sections as small mini missions as part of a bigger hub, and treat the instructions you get in the readables and pop-up messages as objectives. They directly tell you what to do, so they basically replace any objectives you would get in a task list. There is even an optional objective to find all 10 healing potions hidden in one of the areas.

Also, the rule does not say "objectives on objective screen" like you said. It just refers to objectives. So if you get objectives from somewhere else instead of the objective screen, then the rules can still apply to those. And if you only go by what the information in the objective list in the training mission tells you, then all you need to do is start the mission and play for 1 second, then exit and say you ghosted it, Supreme ghosted it even. Nah, I don't think so Galaer. I think I was totally in the right to do what I did.

Since this mission is 1) deviating in structure from any other normal mission, and 2) not even for the regular Thief games but the Dark Mod, we can't take such a special case and extrapolate that to other regular missions. I made that decision since there were no normal objectives, not to excuse busts, but to give the mission a structure that made the playthrough fair and gave it something tangible to reference back to (as in the written instructions). No to mention the fact that the situation you're referring to is not even comparable. The Scarlet Cascabel has normal objectives, so you can easily apply the ghost rules normally.

If it's the only way to progress, then you're gonna have to treat it as a bust. There is no shame in that.

[Galaer]

I'm sorry, klatremus, but you just said "Unless it is explicitly stated in the objectives, it can't be excused". What did you mean if not objective screen? I think everyone (even you) think about it as objectives from objective screen. So why do you think differently for this one mission? I mean lack of objectives is nothing new. It appears in couple of missions. But is it really all right to create new objectives for your own convenience?

Also smithpd mentioned: "I think that it is not advisable to create an endless set of exceptions. I regret many of the exceptions that we allowed in the past because they are cause of much discussion and desire for even more exceptions". And to that you said: "if we start making exceptions, then other players will see that and start asking for other exceptions". You made 1 exception from this rule, so you shouldn't be surprised that other ghosters also asks for exceptions. And the only real difference is the scale of this exception. I asked for just 1 situation, you made much bigger exception based on every readable in the mission. And while doing most of instruction doesn't lead to any bust, there is couple of them that create ghost busts. And also your excuse is worse, because actions you make in this mission are absolutely optional. So you can avoid ghost busts, but still you decided to excuse them and violate this rule. While in my situation - I don't have any choice, it's forced ghost bust.

Also this:"Also, the rule does not say "objectives on objective screen" like you said. It just refers to objectives. So if you get objectives from somewhere else instead of the objective screen, then the rules can still apply to those". If that's what you mean, then I'm sorry, ghost's request that doesn't appear in objective screen is also an objective by this definition.

And this pretty much explains what you need to do: "And if you only go by what the information in the objective list in the training mission tells you, then all you need to do is start the mission and play for 1 second, then exit and say you ghosted it, Supreme ghosted it even". In this couple of missions without objectives I could do that, sometimes I actually did that when there is no loot. But usually I try to get as much loot as possible within ghosting rules, return to start and use cheat to skip mission (no idea if there is one in TDM). But that's literally what you needed to do. And there is really no shame in doing that.

[klatremus]

I appreciate your input Galaer, but I'm not gonna continue discussing this. I will just keep repeating my previous arguments. You can watch my video or read my report for my justifications. I don't think it's even comparable to any other "normal" mission. Look forward to your report on Scarlet Cascabel. It's one of the first missions on my list after T2 and T2X.

[Galaer]

I see, don't worry I will call my situation a ghost bust. But to be honest, I wonder what other ghosters say about your exception. Video about this Training mission can be found here.

[klatremus]

Thank you for the link. Yes I always encourage viewers, and especially other ghosters, to comment on my videos or reports. In this mission especially, I asked for feedback on ghosting since it was the first video I had done on the Dark Mod, and I was unsure on how to implement some of the rules. Nobody so far (7 years later) has commented on my choice in treating the readables and pop-ups as objectives.

[klatremus]

Question: If an item that is a mandatory objective is also a light source, does it automatically bust Supreme taking it?

Supreme rule #14 says: As with normal Ghost, Explicit Objectives to break a rule (such as to kill someone) prevail over the rules, but it is not permitted to break a secondary rule that seems necessary to meet an objective.

To me the rule is talking about secondary rules broken before you obtain the objective, ones that might seem necessary in order to reach it, not those that inevitably occur as a result of taking it. I'd compare this to the alarm in Undercover, where it should be a bust in and of itself, but since it is directly linked to the taking of an objective, you are ok.

I know we have ruled that loot items that emit light are busts, but there you can skip them and still finish the mission (unless the loot objective requires 100%).

Thoughts?

[marbleman]

I don't remember if I encountered items like this in any of my Supreme runs, but I would have treated them as busts. I see the logic of excusing such busts similar to taking the Undercover talisman, but we have to think of all possible options: [the effects] that inevitably occur as a result of taking [the item], do they refer to removing lights/magical seals only or to anything? What if taking an objective item sets off an explosion, alerting/killing a few people? Would that be excused too?

[Cigam]

I think I'd have called the Undercover alarm a bust as there is no explicit directive to sound an alarm or put Hammers into alert mode.

If you excuse direct consequences, you get into the murky waters of what to do about avoidable direct consequences.

For example, the safe plans in LotP. The alarm is a direct consequence, but it is an avoidable one. So does it bust?

But anyway, if unavoidable direct consequences have already been accepted as excusable, then no reason why taking the mandatory glowing quest item should not be also.

[klatremus]

@marbleman: T2X Down Among Dead Men has an elemental crystal that emits lights. It's in a closed coffin in a locked tomb with no enemies, but it's a required objective.

@Cigam: I really like your expression unavoidable direct consequences. I have long hoped to be able to flesh out this rule both for ghost and Supreme. It seems very cumbersome to have to come to a community consensus for each and every case. There's obviously a reason the alarm in Undercover or silent alarm in Return to the Cathedral when taking the eye are excused.

There are actually several comparative situations in Down Among Deas Men that can be used here. There's another objective of burning Mausoleus' remains. When you do this, all the undead explode and that alerts 2 fire elementals. However, this would be a bust as its optional and can be avoided by not reading the book that triggers it. There are also several loot items in the mission that emits light, but those can easily be avoided. Furthermore, there is a scripted event that also causes explosion that alerts zombies. But that script can be avoided, so it would in my opinion be a bust to trigger it. Unavoidable scripts or direct consequences of taking or completing an objective should be excused, I think.

The reason this works is because it is tied to objectives, so it's easy to control. The word 'unavoidable' is good because it omits objectives that have alternate ways of being completed. I'm thinking especially of the Mystic Soul in Bonehoard. There you can place a skull on pedestal to avoid a trap, but then you can't return the skull and that busts Supreme. This would not be a direct consequence of taking the objective, so it's a bust. Plus the trap can't be excused because its avoidable. I like it.

[Cigam]

klatremus, I'm glad you liked my choice of words!

Just to clarify though, are you suggesting that triggering the Mystic Soul's associated trap ISN'T excused because it is avoidable? The fact that you can only avoid it by busting another rule is not taken into consideration?

If so then that is certainly clear, and would be in keeping with the notions that you can't just KO a guard because there is no other way to get to the objective behind him without him seeing you.

[klatremus]

That is exactly what I'm saying. The alternative way incurs another bust, but that is not excused because it doesn't result directly from an objective. That is the way the rule has to be treated if it is to be consistent.

[Cigam]

Just thought of a wrinkle (it never ends).

The wrinkle is in how you classify "avoidable" and "unavoidable", and whether engine exploit avoidances count. You mentioned the silent alarm in RttC. But you can I believe avoid tripping that if you use some rope-jumping technique to nab the Eye? You can also have theoretical possibilities of being able to avoid triggering scripts if you frob a quest item through a barrier. You can after all avoid triggering the alarm in LotP by illicitly frobbing the plans through the safe door without opening it.

So either you count "avoidable via engine exploits" as "avoidable", or there would need to be a further qualification. Something like "intentionly unavoidable direct consequences" or "direct consequences intended to be unavoidable" are excused"?

Or there again maybe we could just leave it. As I think most people would interpret the "unavoidable" sentiment as being about non-cheat methods of avoidance anyway

[klatremus]

I think you discussed yourself into a nice conclusion at the end there. Exploitations are exceptional circumstances and anomalies. I think the rules should focus on normal gameplay. A player should try what is within his means and ability to avoid the bust, but if it doesn't come intuitively from gameplay and you have to penetrate walls three floors away, then nobody would be expected to avoid the bust. Ghosters are normally familiar with well known exploits, like the plans in LotP. But even that one I'm not sure is a bust, as it's a painting isnt it? Paintings and banners aren't solid barriers like doors and walls. You could almost imagine Garrett getting his hands in there. But that's a different discussion.

[Cigam]

Fair enough! But another potential wrinkle. What do we do about the cases where a guard or guards are scripted to alert the moment you complete a mandatory objective? I believe Cavador's bodyguards are set to automatically do this the moment you KO him, even if far away. Plus of course there is the "silent alarm" in RttC.

So, are these alerts classified as 'unavoidable direct consequences of completing a mandatory objective', or are they avoidable because you could have KOed/dispatched such AI ahead of time. Like preventing the Mystic Soul trap?

[klatremus]

If its obvious that its scripted, then that would be excused. But if not, unless you can verify in dromed or from other players on the forum, they should be treated as busts. Cavadors guards are not scripted to alert, so that would be a bust. You have to get them separated somehow in order to avoid that. Same with taking the eye. The enemies are actually not scripted to alert, just to wake up/start patrolling. See here at 29:55. I managed to get it without anyone alerting. Even the zombies didn't start patrolling, they're just standing there.

[Cigam]

Ah forgot scripted events (such as AI changes) for mandatory goals already have their excused status, if you can't stop the script triggering in and of itself.

Between that and other kinds of direct consequences, such as mechanical traps springing, alarms sounding and glowy things going out, everything should be covered more or less.

[klatremus]

Over the last few weeks, Peter Smith and I have taken the topics discussed in this thread during recent months and formulated several clarifications to both the normal Ghost rules as well as the Supreme rules. Below is an outline of the rules that will be modified, with the additions/changes in red. Peter and myself are both in agreement with this wording. We wanted to let the community know before the changes are officially released. This is not meant to trigger controversial discussion, but rather give people a chance to take a look at the changes and let us know of major objections or mistakes. Like I mentioned, these are all topics that have been thoroughly discussed in this thread before. We'd also like to thank all those that posted comments regarding these rules. The ghosting community is a positive and constructive place to partake in wholesome discussion, and its participants are all to be commended for that.

So here goes...

Normal Ghost:

11. Any mission objective that explicitly requires that one of the above rules be broken, such as "Kill the Haunts," is OK to complete and does not bust the ghost so long as no AI are alerted in the process. Unavoidable consequences triggered at the same time as completing a required objective are also excused, but must be reported.

12. AI behaviors caused by programmed scripts and not caused by Garrett's being seen or heard, are allowed, but should be verified by the ghosting community before a success can be claimed. An example is the archer fight in Life of the Party.

B. Commentary and Interpretation of Ghost Rules

1. Mission Objectives

Any mission objective that explicitly demands that the player break one of the rules above is OK to complete and does not bust the ghost. Examples of such an objective are:

"Kill the bad guy."

"Kill all the Haunts" (in Return to the Cathedral)

"Kidnap Cavador" (he must be KO'ed to be picked up)

So long as you do this without alerting any AI, including (for example) the one who must be killed, and so long as you do not break any other rule, it is OK. It is not acceptable, however, to incur a ghost bust that the player thinks is "necessary" to meet another objective. For example, it is not allowed to KO an AI or slash a banner simply because they stand in the way of meeting another objective, such as stealing something.

Events that happen at exactly the same time as the objective being completed, but not resulting in Garrett being seen or heard, are ok. Such events are usually caused by programmed scripts connected to the objective (see #6), but not always. Examples could be a loud trap springing, an alarm sounding, or an object breaking as a direct result of completing the objective. If such events occur before or after the objective, and are caused by Garrett, they are not excused. If unsure, the player should always refer to the ghosting community for verification before claiming a success.

3. Property damage

"No property damage" means no visible damage. Visible damage is when the object is destroyed or appears to be in a different condition than before. For example, if you drop a crate, it makes a noise indicative of damage. This is allowed until the crate actually breaks. The bashing of a door causes visible damage only when the door opens (the lock is broken). Items that disappear from inventory or when used do not count as destroyed. “Property” is defined as something that is fabricated by humans or other intelligent creatures (boards, glass, doors, machines, banners, etc). Natural objects like foliage, boulders, icicles, cobwebs, etc. are not considered property and would not bust ghost.

Supreme Ghost:

5. Inventory and Weapons: You can not purchase weapons and inventory items from the store at loadout. Free items at loadout are allowed to be taken. Stores other than at loadout, such as in-game shops, are ok to use as long as you are not spotted and do not break any other rules. Use nothing that would leave a trace or remnant of evidence. No Potions can be used at all. Rope Arrows and Scouting Orbs can be used but they must be retrieved. Holy water vials are not considered potions and are allowed.

14. As with normal Ghost, Explicit Objectives to break a rule (such as to kill someone) prevail over the rules, but it is not permitted to break a secondary rule that seems necessary to meet an objective.
Unavoidable consequences triggered at the same time as completing a required objective, as long as it doesn't alert any enemies, are excused, but must be reported. For example: If there is an objective to take an item that emits light, when you take the item, the light is automatically extinguished. This is normally not allowed for Supreme, but since removing the light source is an instant and unavoidable consequence, it is excused.

15. Programmed scripts that incur a bust, like for normal Ghost, are also allowed for Supreme, but should be verified by the ghosting community before a success can be claimed. However, if such scripts can be avoided without any busts, they should.

[smithpd]

I agree with all the changes proposed above by klatremus.

We spent a lot of time discussing exceptions due to programmed scripts. Script exceptions have been in the ghosting rules for 20 years. We agree that there is a valid distinction between busts that are caused by actions of the player, i.e. being seen or heard, and unavoidable situations csused by programming.

[Galaer]

Question about unavoidable consequence: does that mean that every alert caused by completing objective will be excused? For example: I have objective to kill somebody, but in order to not be seen by him is by shooting him with broadhead arrow or using sword. It's loud and nearby enemies will hear that. But there is no other option. Another example: I have objective to shoot fire arrows into explosives, but it's very loud and again explosions will be heard by enemies. Is these alerts really excused?

[smithpd]

This clause in the interpretations section of the Normal Ghost rules should cover it:
''So long as you do this without alerting any AI, including (for example) the one who must be killed, and so long as you do not break any other rule, it is OK."

In other words, subsequent alerts caused by the exception, as you describe, are a bust. Do you read it that way?

[klatremus]

Precisely. The paragraph directly after the one you referenced, Peter, also says: "Events that happen at exactly the same time as the objective being completed, but not a result of Garrett being seen or heard, are ok."
Those events are referring to other busts that would not alert enemies, for example property damage or damage inflicted directly to Garrett. Getting seen or heard has always been at the core of the rules, so only explicit statements in the objectives to alert somebody or scripts that alert enemies (as in not caused by Garrett) are excused.

When I think about it, the "not a result of Garrett being seen or heard" part is not stated in the Supreme rules, only in the normal Ghost rules. Should it perhaps also be added there, Peter?