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Thread: Ghost rules discussion

  1. #351
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2000
    Location: Land of enchantment
    I think it would be good to add it to the Supreme rules as well. It may be redundant, but it would be clear.

  2. #352
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    Ok, edited.

  3. #353
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2010
    Location: Tafferville
    I had always treated the damage to the icicles as a bust. I guess trail of blood can be declared as a ghost success then as I can finish that level with nothing more than a few first alerts. Nice.

  4. #354
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    In olddark I was able to without first alerts even, so hopefully that can be Supreme ghosted now. Trail of Blood is coming up soon for me.

  5. #355
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2010
    Location: Tafferville
    Occassionaly when bashing icicles I thought I can dected first alearts from the tree beasts - dunno for sure as i might be confusing it with an FM i've played.

  6. #356
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    Really? I never noticed that, but I will for sure be on the lookout (or hearout).

  7. #357
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2013
    Just to check:

    Unavoidable consequences triggered at the same time as completing a required objective, as long as it doesn't alert any enemies, are excused...
    To me this sounds like an alarm that alerts enemies who are near enough to hear it, is not excused? UNLESS if it is a scripted alert, as opposed to being a real-time reaction to an alarm that sounded as soon as you completed an objective? Is that correct?

    in-game shops, are ok to use as long as you are not spotted and do not break any other rules.
    Presumably by "spotted" you meant by enemies? It's OK if the shopkeeper and any neutral customers see you? I am 99.9% sure this is what was meant I am just envisioning someon staying out of a shop if there are friendly customers in there

  8. #358
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    Quote Originally Posted by Cigam View Post
    Presumably by "spotted" you meant by enemies? It's OK if the shopkeeper and any neutral customers see you? I am 99.9% sure this is what was meant I am just envisioning someon staying out of a shop if there are friendly customers in there
    You are generally correct, but in some FMs if neutral AI will see you doing some shady activity, for example: pickpocketing somebody else or opening door you should not to open, it will result in their behavior changing from neutral to hostile. And then they start alerting to you despite starting as neutral AI, which can bust your ghost.

  9. #359
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    Cigam: You are correct on both points, though the script situation is tricky. That's why the rules say to always confirm with the ghosting community before excusing busts and claiming a success. Scripts are difficult to detect and customized for each mission, so a second opinion is often needed. Its safer to always call it a bust when enemies alert.

  10. #360
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2016
    Location: France
    Would taking the keeper book in Endless Rain be allowed for Supreme now?

  11. #361
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    No, because if I remember correctly, it's not unavoidable. Can't you skip the readable that triggers the objective?

  12. #362
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2016
    Location: France
    What about a similar objective that's mandatory?

  13. #363
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    Yes, as long as the trap doesn't alert any enemies, or can't be avoided in any way, it should now be accepted.

  14. #364
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2010
    Location: Tafferville
    Quote Originally Posted by klatremus View Post
    Really? I never noticed that, but I will for sure be on the lookout (or hearout).
    I loaded each of my VMs with the various Tfix's I to find out.

    olddark no aleart
    newdark 1.27b no alert
    newdark 1.27c no alert
    newdark 1.27d no alert

    So bashing the icicles in trail doesn't bust ghost - so it must have been a FM i've played - now to find what FM that was.

  15. #365
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2016
    Location: France
    A question about difficulty settings in the Dark Mod:

    Rule 1 states: Highest difficulty level available and playable, usually Expert, although it might be renamed by the author.

    In TDM, the way this applies is pretty straightforward as there is also a choice between three difficulty modes when starting each mission. However, there are also difficulty settings in the main menu, patricularly AI vision and hearing, that apply to all missions and can be set from nearly blind/deaf to hardcore. Should these be set to the latter for a Ghost/Supreme run or should one use default settings, namely, forgiving vision and challenging hearing?

  16. #366
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    I have really only ghosted 1 mission in TDM so far, but I think I set the AI alertness to hardcore to maximize difficulty. You can also set the lockpick toughness, but that I dont think should be required.

  17. #367
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2013
    Personally I would only consider author-created preset difficultie settings, rather than user-created custom ones.

    Else you go down the route of suggesting that people ought to tweak AI settings in INIs, if this would make things even harder than whatever the "Expert" preset would set things at.

    So if the three TDM difficulty modes also set the hearing and vision levels for AI, then my feeling is that you can leave them as that, even if there are ways to independently override the "Expert" preset to make them even harder.

    Bit trickier if the available presets do not set any hearing or vision levels themselves, and these are intended to be set entirely by the player. Then I would set them at their highest. Just my first thoughts on the matter.

  18. #368
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2016
    Location: France
    I've set them to Hardcore and noticed barely any difference, so I don't know how they work exactly. No, I don't think we need to play with the Ultimate Difficulty Mod or whatever its name was for Ghosting Thief 1 and 2. That'd just be silly.

  19. #369
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    To be honest I would like to see some reports from playing T1 and T2 with Ultimate Difficulty Mod. So far I only seen comments that regular ghost with Ultimate Difficulty Mod is much harder than supreme ghost without this mod. And I know that first 2 missions from City Conflict series used this mod as a base. Unfortunately Ultimate Difficulty Mod isn't compatible with Newdark, so I can't play it. But I really would like to see some reports or videos of this mod.

  20. #370
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    Using mods or editing .ini files that alter aspects of the game that would impact ghosting would certainly never be required, or expected. I've never used the Ultimate Difficulty mod so I can't comment on it. If it doesnt work in NewDark then I'd never even bother. Since TDM has a setting in the menu that affects ghosting, the rules would definitely have to specify what those settings would be, otherwise the reports wouldnt be comparable. And since the original rules mention highest difficulty, I dont see any other setting than hardcore being obvious.

  21. #371
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2016
    Location: France
    What about combat difficulty? Should that be cranked up as well? I left it as it was since I never really engage in combat, so I think it shouldn't matter.

  22. #372
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    Quote Originally Posted by marbleman View Post
    What about combat difficulty? Should that be cranked up as well? I left it as it was since I never really engage in combat, so I think it shouldn't matter.
    I think this one could be lowered to the minimum. As far as I know this setting doesn't increase enemies awareness and sensitivity. And if you get caught into fight, it will end as a ghost bust anyway. I don't see any sense in making fights harder when you get forced into one of these fights. It's really just a matter of how many times you want to reload game to win fight.

  23. #373
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    Yeah I agree, I don't see how combat difficulty would matter much. The only thing would be if you are forced to fight, but then you bust Ghost anyway if you are detected. If you have a kill objective, the proper way to do it for Ghost would be in one hit, where combat difficulty wouldn't be relevant anyway. Both lockpicking and combat difficulty I think would be up to the player, so I would turn them down to minimum myself.

    Edit: Based on the recent discussion here, it would probably be smart to get a small addendum to the rules going, just to clarify TDM differences.

  24. #374
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2016
    Location: France
    Another question. I've read that guards can react to missing loot, but I'm yet to see that happen. They do, however, react to being pickpocketed, every single time. They have special dialogue for this. Would these remarks bust Supreme?

    Also, TDM has lit treasure candlesticks that were a point of discussion for Thief some time ago. They behave a little differently, and it's possible to take them without removing the light source. It looks kinda weird though. I'd say it's probably not a bust, but I want to make sure.

    Last edited by marbleman; 15th Jun 2021 at 10:22.

  25. #375
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    When they react to being pickpocketed, is it the same remark as a first alert from seeing/hearing you? Or is it one unique only for this type of event? Do they have a settling remark from it? Come to think of it, I dont remember if the alert and settling remark combo is the same in TDM.

    The lit candlestick should be fine. I wish you could do that in T1/2 lol.

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