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Thread: Ghost rules discussion

  1. #476
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    Then how about making special ghost mode that would disallow this alert.

    Also just wanted to say that there is little flaw about your pickups. Because of supreme rules, most of equipment will be useless. You can only use arrows to solve puzzles or hit switches. You can only use potions in order to climb higher. You can't do a thing with mines, you can't use them, because it's noisy, you can't climb on them, because they explode. Supreme rules disallow going to shops, so you can't sell them either.

    In practice though, I wouldn't care too much if unnecessary pickup rule would vanish. At least my concern about you grabbing rope arrow to grab more loot easier in Shipping and Receiving would vanish.
    Last edited by Galaer; 31st Jul 2021 at 12:51.

  2. #477
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2013
    Galaer, the loot-alert thing might not have been an issue in T1 & T2 due to its rarity. Whereas in T3 where it was a common issue, some people did address it, and as mentioned previously, they did allow the search mode responses due to their ubiquity. So it is not a completely new issue, it has been around for years.

    I'd liken loot to objectives. Collecting loot and completing objectives are the two primary motivations. You could argue that a ghost wouldn't steal an object that triggers a full-scale alarm, but then ghosting doesn't override the primary motivation of completing objectives.

    I guess what I am saying here is, is that I don't think excusing loot-responses needs necessarily be against the spirit of being a ghost. A lot worse gets excused for the sake of completing an objective.

    After all, you are not there to spend a few hours sneaking about just for the satisfaction of having been undetected in someone else's mansion. You are there for the objectives and the gold.

    One last thing, even in the games where it is rare, that knowledge doesn't help you. You'd still have to worry about whether this piece of loot is such a loot. For every piece of loot you come across.

  3. #478
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    Quote Originally Posted by Cigam View Post
    After all, you are not there to spend a few hours sneaking about just for the satisfaction of having been undetected in someone else's mansion. You are there for the objectives and the gold.
    Well, you see, for me it's quite opposite. I felt great when I learned that i can fall into water quietly in TTGM series. I used this technique couple more times. Crazy jumps and mantling only to avoid being spotted. Figuring out nuances about nudging or different uses of crates was very interesting. I also love really tight situations and I got a lot of satisfaction from ghosting really hard mission like Rebellion of the Builder, Patriot or Elevator Mission. For this mode I remember all crazy situation that I managed to solve through ghosting rather than getting loot or completing objectives.

  4. #479
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2013
    Plus the point I was making about the breath potions was that we are all free to make our own judgments. I am free to judge that I don't care whether you drink, eat, chew or smoke an item, or whether it is one-use or infinitely usable. If a usable item in your inventory grants the same effect as a forbidden potion, then it should be forbidden also. I am free to judge that it is the buff that is the issue, not the specific delivery method of said buff.

    As long as people note such things then we can all say, "sorry, but IMO that was a bust". I know I disagree with several things others have accepted. Another example: grabbing loot through a banner is clearly an engine-exploit. It wasn't a designed, intended mechanic, no matter what real-life logic says about moving banners aside But then others disagree and just go ahead and take the loot. As long as people report such things its fine. The reader can just disagree if they want to.

  5. #480
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2013
    Galaer, but you, or at least Garrett, are doing all that with end goals in mind. Completing the prescribed tasks and nabbing loot. Otherwise you, or at least Garrett, would just go to any old house, sneak around randomly for an hour, then leave empty-handed but for a sense of satisfaction at not being caught.
    Last edited by Cigam; 31st Jul 2021 at 14:39.

  6. #481
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    Very interesting discussion this. Thanks for all your great input. Some good points in your last comments, Cigam.

  7. #482
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    Quote Originally Posted by klatremus View Post
    Very interesting discussion this. Thanks for all your great input. Some good points in your last comments, Cigam.
    I don't see where exactly he's making a good point in his last comment. He mentioned old, empty house and going in circles around him for an hour, which for me is indication that he didn't really read my comment at all. I like challenge. You can easily complete objectives and getting loot in normal mode. Even during ghosting these things are most of the time easy. It's usually about sneaking through really tight patrols, getting well guarded key or getting to control panel. A lot of the time it's about figuring out how to solve situation without breaking ghost rules. So it's not about sneaking randomly for an hour, but it's about solving tough situations. For example, klatremus, nudging golden child in Life of the Party. It has nothing to do with completing any objective or loot, you can easily use invisibility potion and get out. And yet he spend many hours to nudge him out of the way. Or your ghost challenges: they are about tricky situation where you want to get through certain optional for ghost areas, getting equipment or loot the hard way. I had a lot of fun figuring out how to get in and get out of West Side of Monastery in Patriot without breaking ghost rules. It has nothing to do with completing objectives or getting loot, because you can just explode wall of barrels and easily go through. That's also the intended by author path. To avoid that I needed to think outside the box and that was really fun.

    Also there is a lot of missions without any loot, so after ghosting them you leave empty handed anyway.
    Last edited by Galaer; 1st Aug 2021 at 04:12.

  8. #483
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    As per the rules commentary:

    2. No shame in failing

    In spite of exceptions that have been allowed, it is preferable to report doubtful results as a bust and to avoid attempts to dilute the rules with exceptions or new modes of play. There is no shame in failing to complete a mission in Ghost mode. It is intended to be a challenge that is not usually achievable.

  9. #484
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    @Galaer: Yes, I was referring to Cigam's points about interpreting some rules differently. You report your way of doing it and if the rules are not 100% clear then others have the right to disagree. I totally agree with your assessment on small challenges within missions. They can be as fun or even more fun that the main objectives and loot. We are on the same page. Thanks for referencing my ghost challenges.

    @Starker: That is from the normal Thief rules though. If you were referring to the missing loot alerts, we were discussing the Dark Mod. The games are different, so there could easily be differences in the rules' implementation.

  10. #485
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    In Accountant 2 there is situation where going through vent, floor suddenly fall down and myself with it. Impossible to avoid. Should I classify this as damage property or excuse that as something done by invisible trigger?

  11. #486
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2013
    Galaer, what I meant by 'sneaking randomly' was something like 'sneaking around just for the sake of it'. Generally speaking, Garrett doesn't break into a place because there is nothing on the Telly that night. So for entertainment he decides to break in just for the sake of setting himself his own challenges. He is there for objectives and gold.

    You as a player might not value these, and instead might prefer to set yourself your own challenges that have nothing to do with either, and that is of course absolutely fine.

    But in a general sense, these are the primary motivations. Which matter in regards to discussions of what breaks the spirit of ghosting. Speaking of which, here's the quote I remember Travis using to justify or partially justify excusing T3 loot-alerts: "principles of ghosting are: you are not seen or heard and you do no damage. The only evidence of your presence should be the items you have stolen."

  12. #487
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    Quote Originally Posted by Cigam View Post
    But in a general sense, these are the primary motivations. Which matter in regards to discussions of what breaks the spirit of ghosting. Speaking of which, here's the quote I remember Travis using to justify or partially justify excusing T3 loot-alerts: "principles of ghosting are: you are not seen or heard and you do no damage. The only evidence of your presence should be the items you have stolen."
    I watched his video too and he also mentioned that if official Thief 3 rules will be made and they will be different than his assessment, then maybe his gonna replay Thief 3 along new rules. So he's not saying that his principles he had back there are absolute, he's ready to adapt in case of changes.

  13. #488
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2016
    Location: France
    Okay, this should be it. I didn't add anything regarding the removal of light sources since the rules here are the same as in Thief.

    A. Ghost Mode

    1. Highest difficulty level available and playable, usually Expert, although it might be renamed by the author.
    * AI vision and AI hearing must be set to Hardcore in gameplay difficulty settings. Lockpicking and combat difficulty may be set per each ghoster's preferences but should be reported when they become relevant.

    4. No second level alerts, that is recognition or hunting alerts, of human or non-humans AI are allowed. This includes undead, fire elementals, spiders, bots etc. Rats are excluded.
    * No alerts of levels 2-5 are allowed. The player can take an unlimited amount of level 1 alerts so long as the stealth score remains at 0.
    ** Responses to noticing missing loot are allowed. These look like level 4 alerts but do not contribute to the stealth score. It is up to each individual ghoster to skip loot pieces that they know will cause these responses.
    *** Responses to being pickpocketed are allowed. These are different from regular alerts and do not contribute to the stealth score.
    **** Responses to finding open doors and player tools such as deployed rope arrows are allowed.


    8. The use of quirks of the Dark engine is allowed, but only as a last resort, and must be reported. Examples include techniques such as "banner transmigration" and "nudging," as explained in part B.
    * Similarly, the use of idTech 4 quirks is allowed, but only as a last resort, and must be reported.

    B. Commentary and Interpretation of Ghost Rules

    5. Examples of alerts

    [...]

    5.1. Alerts in the Dark Mod

    Alerts in the Dark Mod work slightly differently than in Thief. Instead of three alert leves, NPCs have five. Additionally, getting alerts, except those of level 1, contributes to the stealth score, a mechanic unique to TDM. This system is explained on the stat screen upon successfully completing any mission, so anyone intending to ghost TDM is highly encouraged to familiarize themselves with it first.

    It is also highly encouraged to use Dragofer's Stealth Statistics Tool to get a feel for how alerts work and to check the stealth score when playing missions for ghost reports.


    D. Supreme Ghost Mode

    1. Highest difficulty level available and playable, usually Expert, although it might be renamed by the author.
    * AI vision and AI hearing must be set to Hardcore in gameplay difficulty settings. Lockpicking and combat difficulty may be set per each ghoster's preferences but should be reported when they become relevant.

    4. No Alerts of any kind from any AI or Device: No first alerts, no comments at all from AI. A single chirp from a Watcher, “Musta Been Rats…”, zombies groaning, etc are a bust. All AI and devices must remain in their normal state and not react to anything you do or initiate in the game. AI walking around and muttering to themselves or having a conversation with another AI are fine.
    * No level 1 alerts are allowed.
    ** Responses to noticing missing loot are allowed. These look like level 4 alerts but do not contribute to the stealth score. It is up to each individual ghoster to skip loot pieces that they know will cause these responses.
    *** Responses to being pickpocketed are allowed. These are different from regular alerts and do not contribute to the stealth score.
    **** Responses to finding open doors and player tools such as deployed rope arrows, although they also do not contribute to the stealth score, are not allowed.
    ***** Sleeping NPC can give level 1 alerts but never give verbal cues when they do. These alerts are not a bust, but it is encouraged to avoid them. The only way to gauge these is to use Dragofer's Stealth Statistics Tool.


    5. Inventory and Weapons: You can not purchase weapons and inventory items from the store at loadout. Free items at loadout are allowed to be taken. Stores other than at loadout, such as in-game shops, are ok to use as long as you are not spotted and do not break any other rules. Use nothing that would leave a trace or remnant of evidence. No Potions can be used at all. Rope Arrows and Scouting Orbs can be used but they must be retrieved. Holy water vials are not considered potions and are allowed.
    * There is no need to discard any of the starting equimpent on the loadout screen.

    11. No exploitation of the Dark engine: No nudging, banner transmigration, hooking of AI with boxes, barrel polka dancing or anything that takes advantage of quirks in the Dark engine for game play advantage.
    * Similarly, no exploitation of idTech 4 quirks is allowed.

    Now, I have a question.
    5. A very strange trick I found that might not always work (but has worked several times for me) is if you are in a semi-lit room and can't find shade, go into a corner, lean into the room and then turn your mouse to view back towards the wall. If you look around after leaning, it's almost as if you lower your head to the ground, where the game thinks you are now at ground level. It then applies the ground's light properties to you and you turn even darker. In one case I did this and went from fairly lit up and detected by enemies to almost completely dark and no alerts. I'm not sure if my explanation made sense, but I'll do more experimentation on this.
    Is this a quirk of the engine that wouldn't be allowed for Supreme?
    Last edited by marbleman; 2nd Aug 2021 at 14:34.

  14. #489
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by Cigam View Post
    Galaer, what I meant by 'sneaking randomly' was something like 'sneaking around just for the sake of it'. Generally speaking, Garrett doesn't break into a place because there is nothing on the Telly that night. So for entertainment he decides to break in just for the sake of setting himself his own challenges. He is there for objectives and gold.

    You as a player might not value these, and instead might prefer to set yourself your own challenges that have nothing to do with either, and that is of course absolutely fine.

    But in a general sense, these are the primary motivations. Which matter in regards to discussions of what breaks the spirit of ghosting. Speaking of which, here's the quote I remember Travis using to justify or partially justify excusing T3 loot-alerts: "principles of ghosting are: you are not seen or heard and you do no damage. The only evidence of your presence should be the items you have stolen."
    Gold is not equal to the objectives, though. It's more like an additional constraint -- finish the mission while getting at least x amount of gold. And not in every mission, even. It can be one of the objectives, sure. Ghosting is a far more strict constraint in this regard. In the original mode, it didn't allow for any exceptions even for completing mission objectives.

    You can also easily picture a more cautious and prudent Garrett who doesn't pick up every fork and pair of scissors he comes across and doesn't go for riskier pieces of loot whose disappearance is liable to be noticed soon.
    Last edited by Starker; 1st Aug 2021 at 17:08.

  15. #490
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2013
    Quote Originally Posted by Starker View Post
    You can also easily picture a more cautious and prudent Garrett who doesn't pick up every fork and pair of scissors he comes across and doesn't go for riskier pieces of loot whose disappearance is liable to be noticed soon.
    This discussion started because in practise, you have no guarantees that the above applies to this specific piece of loot. Will some future guard come along and moan about this coin stack etc. So some people have suggested excusing such alerts for the sake of practicality and game flow. Otherwise the player might need to spend hours on the matter.

    Some think excusing loot-alerts would violate the spirit of being a ghost. Others think that due to looting being a big part of the game it is compatible, or at least no less compatible than allowing full-scale alerts and much worse, in order to complete that other big thief-motivation: finishing an objective. And then still calling yourself a ghost as you walk out with the alarm ringing and every AI in hunt mode.

    Yes, the strict mode you mention saves all this fuss, and is probably the purest ghost mode.
    Last edited by Cigam; 1st Aug 2021 at 14:00.

  16. #491
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Yes, I have been following the discussion. I don't talk much here, but I read every post.

    No, you don't have any guarantees a piece of loot won't be noticed missing, but for most pieces you can be fairly sure. When you play a mission, especially in ghost mode, you become reasonably aware of the patrol routes and what loot is near them. The only thing you need to verify it is to have a guard go past the spot. And if in doubt, you can always leave the loot be.

    It's a similar situation as with crates in supreme ghost -- you're only allowed to stack them at places that isn't a patrol path and even then you can't be completely sure there isn't some long-winded patrol that you unfreeze after you move on.

  17. #492
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2013
    I think klatremus explains it well here
    Quote Originally Posted by klatremus View Post
    The biggest reason I have for allowing loot is the fact that you cannot be sure what loot items trigger alerts and which ones don't. What if you have a table with 6 pieces of loot and one patroller with a route around the whole building but with random pathway. Should you take 1 piece at a time and wait for him in between each time? This would take much more than 3-4 minutes each time. And you'd have to do that for every single piece of loot in a mission, and you'd have to track all the patrol routes to know exactly where they could go.
    When can you have no doubt? It was many years and several playthroughs before I discovered that in Bafford if you wait long enough in the servants' quarters, then eventually a servant makes his way there. I had usually been long gone by then. He could theoretically have been a missing loot-hawk.

    As for the crates, well I have previously argued similar. If there is no AI during the time the crate is there its OK. And that people should not have to worry about theoretical future patrols walking through the spot the crate temporarily once was.

    In my Bafford case, I could easily have spent several playthroughs placing crates in the corridor I would eventually discover that that guy walks down. At what point could I have said that there was no doubt that that corridor is never patrolled?
    Last edited by Cigam; 1st Aug 2021 at 20:53.

  18. #493
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    @marbleman: I think that is a very good and comprehensive amendment for TDM. I'd say we play a few more missions each with those rules and see how they play out. Then if there are no major obstacles or changes needed, I can copy/paste those into the official ghost rules thread. I just think we need time for them to simmer a bit. I will make a few TDM videos in the next few weeks and I am sure you will too. But this looks great so far.

  19. #494
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2013
    Quote Originally Posted by marbleman View Post
    ** Responses to noticing missing loot are allowed. These look like level 4 alerts but do not contribute to the stealth score. It is up to each individual ghoster to skip loot pieces that cause these responses.
    Perhaps being a bit nit-picky, but I think I first misunderstood that second part to mean that there is still some sort of honour or an onus on players to skip such loot? If there is no such onus, then perhaps it could say something like: "It is up to each individual ghoster whether or not to skip loot pieces that cause these responses."

    If it was intended to convey such an onus, then maybe it could at least qualify this with the player needing to know that the loot is one that will cause such an alert? As in something like: "It is up to each individual ghoster to skip loot pieces that they know will cause these responses."

    Apologies for the nit-picking it is only because, as I say, my first reading made me think about which of these was meant?

    P.S. FWIW that thing about changing your light properties sounds like an exploitable bug to me? It doesn't sound like intentional design at least.
    Last edited by Cigam; 2nd Aug 2021 at 09:55.

  20. #495
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2013
    Quote Originally Posted by Galaer View Post
    In Accountant 2 there is situation where going through vent, floor suddenly fall down and myself with it. Impossible to avoid. Should I classify this as damage property or excuse that as something done by invisible trigger?
    For me I think it comes down to whether it is a normal floor that is scripted to collapse, or whether it is a floor physically designed to collapse under a weight of the player's magnitude? If the floor wouldn't have collapsed without a script telling it to, then wouldn't that come under scripts?

  21. #496
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    Quote Originally Posted by Cigam View Post
    For me I think it comes down to whether it is a normal floor that is scripted to collapse, or whether it is a floor physically designed to collapse under a weight of the player's magnitude? If the floor wouldn't have collapsed without a script telling it to, then wouldn't that come under scripts?
    After a while of thinking I would say that this situation is closer to pushing wall in Sound of a Burrick mission. There you shouldn't push wall by frobbing if it wasn't been destroyed damaged earlier. And it's a bit similar in Accountant 2. Normally floor doesn't fall if it wasn't damaged. Still I'm gonna try to activate vent floor's fall while I'm in air, because I learned that while in vent you can still jump. Something that's impossible in Thief games.

  22. #497
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2016
    Location: France
    @Cigam: Thanks, I adjusted the wording.

  23. #498
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    @marbleman & cigam: No that trick can't be classified as an exploit. First, all you're doing is leaning and moving the mouse. You're not penetrating anything or defying logic regarding gravity or object manipulation. Second, you would do it accidentally many times if leaning around a corner or crouching in between objects.

  24. #499
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    Quote Originally Posted by klatremus View Post
    @marbleman & cigam: No that trick can't be classified as an exploit. First, all you're doing is leaning and moving the mouse. You're not penetrating anything or defying logic regarding gravity or object manipulation. Second, you would do it accidentally many times if leaning around a corner or crouching in between objects.
    But leaning usually makes you more visible. Plus just based on your description I don't really understand how this trick looks. Could you show this trick in your next TDM video?

    Edit: after a bit of thinking I wonder if your trick has anything to do with clipping into wall. Because yeah, clipping into wall in TDM is actually possible. Also just like your trick it has something to do with corner. I achieved that in different why though. I was trying to enter Lounge in Accountant 2. Entrance is observed by sitting guard and sitting player. To avoid their alerts I decided to crouch and walk slowly along wall while looking at a wall. Just like I do in Thief games. When crossing doorway I turned and suddenly I got sucked into wall. I freaked out and escaped from it. Tried to sneak into Lounge again and again clipped into wal. Third time was the charm and I avoided clipping into corner of doorway again.

    I wonder if your trick isn't clipping your head into inside of wall. Inside of wall is full shadow. Light gem works as combination of position of your lower and upper half. So if you are leaning out of shadow, you will be more visible. But if you are leaning into shadow, you will be less visible. And I believe that's what happened. You are leaning into corner and somehow you are clipping upper half into inside of wall and that's how you gain more shadow. If that's how your trick works, I would call it an exploit.
    Last edited by Galaer; 3rd Aug 2021 at 09:19.

  25. #500
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    What I did was definitely not related to wall clipping. Once I did it from a corner, leaning into the room. The other was in an open marketplace next to a support pillar. It works any time you lean really, so think it's just a side effect of the engine's leaning mechanism.

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