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Thread: Ghost rules discussion

  1. #526
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2016
    Location: France
    Cavador is immune to gas, did you forget?

  2. #527
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2013
    marbleman, oh of course [a forehead-slap emoticon goes here].

    Still, even if Cavador can't be spared some subsequent bruising, I think there is the general question since other FMs also have kidnaps. Should the ghost kidnapper favour a gas arrow or mine KO (assuming they or the mission level has one) over a thwack.

    It might not come up very often, but there are definately other missions that have them, and where the target isn't gas-immune.

  3. #528
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2016
    Location: France
    Got a new TDM question: does picking up and moving lit candles to a different location bust Supreme? Technically, you're not removing any light sources this way.

  4. #529
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    Well, technically you are removing it from where it was first located. The rule doesn't specify what "removing" it really means, because you can't move lights around in Thief. The principle behind the rule for Supreme is someone can see the light go out, so if you move it from one room to the next, isn't that basically the same thing? I wouldn't say this follows the spirit of the Supreme rule. I'd say its ok if you take a candlestick that has a wax candle in it, then you put the wax part down where the candlestick was, but to move the light to a different spot doesn't feel right.

    Very good question though. This might be worth specifying in the Dark Mod amendment.

  5. #530
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    Quote Originally Posted by klatremus View Post
    because you can't move lights around in Thief.
    You are incorrect on this one. In FMs sometimes you can grab and move lanterns. Since game gives you possibility of moving light source, then I think it should be allowed. But later you must return it to the original spot. Plus it's not free. If light from candle is a problem of being spotted, then walking with source of light is even bigger problem of being spotted.

  6. #531
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2016
    Location: France
    @klatremus: Yeah I'm with you on this one. It immediately struck me as logical not to allow moving these lights. I then thought, "What if the candle is later placed back where it was?" but even in this case it doesn't seem to be in the spirit of Supreme. It also reminded me that using light switches is not allowed to turn off lights even if you turn them back on later, and this situation seems quite similar.

  7. #532
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    @Galaer: True, I forgot about lanterns, though i would never use them for Supreme for the reasons I stated above. I don't see how that would ever be necessary in Thief either. I do not understand your logic of saying "since the game gives you the possibility, it should be allowed". The game gives you the possibility to kill people also...

    @marbleman: Light switches is a good comparison yes, which further solidifies my opinion.

  8. #533
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    @klatremus: I guess you never played mission with eternal darkness (shadow is pitch black no matter of gamma settings and you don't even see where walls are). In this kind of missions you just need to take lantern with you as completing mission blindly is nearly impossible. Try supreme ghosting Heartcliff Islands without taking lantern with you. Though I didn't like this mission, it has really good atmosphere, it's creative and has some really creepy undead. Plus it creates a lot of new supreme ghost problems worth discussing. It's the must for you to play.

    Also I disagree that light switches comparison is good. When moving lanterns you don't remove light source. When using light switches you remove light source. It's not the same thing. Plus taking lantern with you makes you more visible.
    Last edited by Galaer; 4th Sep 2021 at 14:02.

  9. #534
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    I have not played that mission no, nor any other mission where I needed light source to continue or ghost.

    But when you move a light from one room to another, you are removing the light source from the room you are in though. Sure you're not putting out the light, but it's no longer a light source in the original room. If someone walks into the room, to them there's no difference if the light is put out or if it's still lit but on the other end of the mansion.

    The point of that rule is so that you cant walk through that room and be more concealed. If you move the light first, it has exactly the same effect as putting it out.

  10. #535
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    @klatremus: a lot of lanterns in Thief FMs is placed in rooms never visited by AI, so when taking this light source you aren't using it to your advantage of easier sneaking through rooms.

  11. #536
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    But we are not discussing only those lanterns, Galaer. We are talking about whether its allowed to move any light source to a different part of the map. The rule doesn't refer to only some lights, it's all or none.

    That's why for Supreme we decided not to allow taking any loot items that emit light. It doesn't matter if AI walk through the room or not.

  12. #537
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2016
    Location: France
    If there are movable light sources in Thief, it makes more sense to amend the main ruleset rather than the TDM addendum.

  13. #538
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    Quote Originally Posted by marbleman View Post
    If there are movable light sources in Thief, it makes more sense to amend the main ruleset rather than the TDM addendum.
    I agree

  14. #539
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2016
    Location: France
    One more question: since objects block lights in TDM, is blocking off lanterns with boxes a bust? Keep in mind, that doors block lights too, so if it is, you wouldn't be able to use most doors too.

  15. #540
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2013
    Marbleman, that doesn't sound like the removing or moving of a light source per se.

    If you wanted to forbid it you'd have to call it something like 'contriving a fabrricated barrier around a light source to achieve the same effect as removing it'.

  16. #541
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    I actually thought about that too. I dont think that is the same, because you aren't manipulating the light source, only the environment. However, you cant stack boxes on patrol paths or directly in view of enemies for Supreme, so that you still have to abide by. Due to that I'm not sure how useful this trick would be. Opening doors to block light sounds ok to me, bc even in Thief you can use doors to block the view of enemies.

  17. #542
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2013
    Klatremus, hope you don't mind me commenting here re your Thief 2X - Mission 8 video. In it you mention that once the secret door into the Hammer Temple closes behind you, you couldn't find anyway to open it back up again. It's been a while but I'm sure I used to be able to bash it back open with my sword. Not sure if that counts as property damage or not, as I am not sure if it is technically locked when it closes, and you can just frob it open from the other side without keys. So this might be more like pushing a door open with extra force rather than busting a lock?

    Well Nothing major here, and your method might be preferrable from a noise perspective. Just something that someone else might possibly find interesting if the door has already closed (and there isn't some bust I am forgetting here). There are also definately other such one-way openable doors, including in T2X, that can be bashed open from the other way.
    Last edited by Cigam; 5th Sep 2021 at 13:34.

  18. #543
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2010
    Location: Mississippi
    Quote Originally Posted by Galaer View Post
    @klatremus: I guess you never played mission with eternal darkness (shadow is pitch black no matter of gamma settings and you don't even see where walls are). In this kind of missions you just need to take lantern with you as completing mission blindly is nearly impossible. Try supreme ghosting Heartcliff Islands without taking lantern with you. Though I didn't like this mission, it has really good atmosphere, it's creative and has some really creepy undead. Plus it creates a lot of new supreme ghost problems worth discussing. It's the must for you to play.

    Also I disagree that light switches comparison is good. When moving lanterns you don't remove light source. When using light switches you remove light source. It's not the same thing. Plus taking lantern with you makes you more visible.
    " Try supreme ghosting Heartcliff Islands without taking lantern with you." ... Heartcliff is a masterpiece in my opinion and yes you can quite easily get through without the lantern if you know the path.... Klatremus, this is also one you need to play... it may result in a 40 hour video though... heh

  19. #544
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    I wanted to ask about perfect thief rule in regards of Whistling of Gears. In this mission you can complete max loot without any ghost bust, but there is a way to generate more loot, which increase max loot, by killing fire mage. Killing him is a ghost bust though, so it must be avoided. Why am I asking about this? Well, perfect thief rule isn't defined by max loot stat, but rather by all available loot in mission. Of course max loot is reliable in most of the missions, but sometimes due to oversight of FM creator, loot has been put outside of map or it becomes unfrobbable. In these situations these loot pieces don't count to perfect thief and the real max loot stat is lower. But what about generating new loot piece? This is also available loot in the mission and also it appears rarely, but it appears. This means that true max loot stat is actually bigger than max loot stat you are starting with. And despite getting max loot, but skipping these troublesome newly generated loot pieces, shouldn't it count to failing perfect thief?

  20. #545
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2013
    Galaer, perhaps loot for Perfect could be treated like objectives for Supreme? In the sense that if you either do not know about the fact that a new objective / loot piece can be triggered, or you do know about this but deliberately avoid triggering it, then it is not a bust?

    Only the obtainable objectives / loot pieces already there in the objectives list / world are mandatory?

    Otherwise you have the familiar problem of people having to spend hours combing over and studying missions, in order to check if they are complying with a rule.
    Last edited by Cigam; 11th Sep 2021 at 11:47.

  21. #546
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    Quote Originally Posted by Cigam View Post
    Galaer, perhaps loot for Perfect could be treated like objectives for Supreme? In the sense that if you either do not know about the fact that a new objective / loot piece can be triggered, or you do know about this but deliberately avoid triggering it, then it is not a bust?

    Only the obtainable objectives / loot pieces already there in the objectives list / world are mandatory?

    Otherwise you have the familiar problem of people having to spend hours combing over and studying missions, in order to check if they are complying with a rule.
    Not necessarily. You can always ask on forum if there is any loot that is generated. For Whistling of Gears I had no problem to find easter egg on my first casual run and I think if player is searching for loot, he will eventually find it. Or read about it on forum. In case of TTGM 4 there is one nugget that is generated. It doesn't bust any ghost mode. I noticed that when I compared starting max loot with my end max loot stat. So I asked on forum about it. In Working the Mines loot objective is 10 times bigger than max loot available at the start of mission, so you are forced to generate more loot in order to finish this mission. But you can generate way more loot than loot objective states. Since right now perfect thief rule states to get all available loot in the mission instead of getting max loot, I would say that skipping these pieces of loot especially if you know about them, should count as perfect thief failed.

  22. #547
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2016
    Location: France
    The player can always ask about hidden objectives too; you don't make a very convincing point there.

    Also, the changes you propose here are too major. The last few amendments were just that -- amendments, clarifications. Nobody ever changed any rules outright, and I don't think anyone will.

  23. #548
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    Quote Originally Posted by marbleman View Post
    The player can always ask about hidden objectives too; you don't make a very convincing point there.

    Also, the changes you propose here are too major. The last few amendments were just that -- amendments, clarifications. Nobody ever changed any rules outright, and I don't think anyone will.
    But I don't propose any change. This is about how you interpret this rule. Also have in mind that this is rare enough situation that it doesn't create huge problem with all missions. It's only about these 3 or 4 missions that generate new loot. And you are correct - there is no rule preventing asking on forum about any hidden objectives.

  24. #549
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2013
    But I would point out that Not all FMs are well known or well documented. So I don't think that a lack of people commenting on this or any other forum to say that they know about some specific FM's hidden objective or hidden loot trigger proves anything.

    If however the loot stat says there is more loot than what you have collected, that is a different story. That is I think the equivalent of having unticked objectives in Supreme.

    Unless if I have misread, that isn't the case with your specific FM? The max loot only changes IF you trigger an optional event? If so, then I would make the arguments above.

  25. #550
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    All available loot is what is available at the current time, not including what could get added from secrets, scripts, Easter eggs or contracts from loadout store. So extra loot is just that, extra, that can be triggered by choice, but not triggering it will not bust the Perfect status.

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