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Thread: Ghost rules discussion

  1. #576
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2016
    Location: France
    That does sound like a bug and a supreme bust. You are removing a light source, even if it gets relit right away.

  2. #577
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    I think I agree. Bugs don't excuse busts, but still annoying.

  3. #578
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    Sorry, klatremus, but I think it's fair to bring discussion about food, healing fruits not activating chemical ghost as they aren't potions to the rest of community. I always thought that eating those will make chemical ghost, but klatremus says differently. Here is his quote about this matter.

    "I get the point you're trying to make about the healing fruits. I would argue in my video as well that the only wording in the rules is that "potions" aren't allowed. After all, you can heal yourself by eating regular food also, not just healing fruits, so is it logical that the Supreme rules won't allow Garrett to eat food? Hardly. I think the potion rule was mostly implemented to prevent invisibility and speed potions since they can avoid detection, and breath and slow-fall potions because they can prevent loss of damage. Sure, healing potions would also be covered by the rule, but nothing is said about other types of healing. I would argue if there was a leaf you could eat that would give you more breath underwater, that would be fine also. It's not a potion.

    Not returning a fruit if you eat it to survive is not a bust to rule #7. The first sentence even says "that can be put back". If you eat it, obviously it can't be put back. Also the last sentence of #7 says "Some items stay permanently in inventory or disappear from inventory so they cannot be put back. These are excused." That is to me quite clear. If so, then using a key that disappears when used would also be a bust, because you can't put it back."

    What do you think?
    Last edited by Galaer; 29th Nov 2021 at 18:34.

  4. #579
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    I was thinking about bringing this up in this discussion also, so thank you Galaer. I stand by everything you quoted me on. I don't think anything edible is breaking the potion rule. That's basically what is comes down to.

    The case is in Hallucinations, where you lose health as a scripted gameplay event, so that's not a bust. You're not allowed to drink healing potions to avoid dying for Supreme, so I argue you can eat magic healing apples to replenish health and not bust Supreme, or render it a Chemical Success for regular Ghost.
    Last edited by klatremus; 30th Nov 2021 at 01:28.

  5. #580
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2016
    Location: France
    I agree with klatremus's interpretation.

  6. #581
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    The reason why I think eating food should also trigger chemical ghost is because of healing properties. You may argue that it doesn't help you avoiding AI, but it actually affects mental state of player. With healing allowed player don't need to be that careful like before. You can get hurt from falling or drowning or other thing and then just heal. Believe me, even if you excuse some damage, playing mission with low health is more tense. Every though you need to avoid getting hurt, perspective of dying immediately is more scary and it actually affects gameplay. Klatremus mentions poison in Hallucination, but I also supreme ghosted this mission and there was no need for me to get heal. It was tense, but possible to avoid healing, so I don't know why it's suddenly impossible for klatremus. That's why I think eating food, fruits and healing potions should trigger chemical run. This includes objects that heals you like healing fountains.

    Breath potions and slow fall potions may affect ghosting though. Sometimes there are enemies underwater or you must hide while underwater from enemy standing near surface. Tension that appears when your air ends and you must quickly swim to surface, but you know that you may get spotted by enemy, is huge. Slow fall potions are the same. Instead of just falling straight down, you must find a way to carefully drop down and this slow movement may lead to you being exposed. Plus there are ghosting techniques developed to help you. You may just jump down and save yourself by mantling on something, you can drop on enemy or you can use body as a cushion.

    Also about rule #7: food can be returned. If you are gonna eat it, then you can't return that. But unless objective states that, you don't need food for anything and you don't need food for anything as taking damage is forbidden for supreme ghost and really last resort for regular ghost. And since we are talking about food - what about Thief 1 food? Originally food had no chance to heal you. Newdark changed that. What about that?

    Plus making feast at the middle of mission isn't very professional.

  7. #582
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    I think the safest thing is sticking to the rules, and not add anything to it that isn't there. The rule mentions potions, in both the regular ghost and supreme rule sets. If it was meant to include just about anything you can put into your mouth, I think it would've said so. In regular ghost you are allowed to take damage; it's frowned upon, but it is allowed. If healing yourself in any way (food, healing fruits, etc) would also produce a chemical success and not just potions, then why doesn't it say so? The original ghosters that made the rules certainly knew about those things. The fact that it's not included to me means it wasn't healing that was the issue, instead they wanted to avoid or restrict the use of potions.

  8. #583
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    Quote Originally Posted by klatremus View Post
    The original ghosters that made the rules certainly knew about those things.
    They could just forget about that as most of the time you heal with healing potions. They are the most efficient. Also in Escape you start with low health and no ghosters, including you, decided to heal themselves. This indicates for me that healing would trigger chemical run in their mind. For me eating and drinking should trigger chemical run.

  9. #584
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2013
    klatremus, thanks for the clarification.

    Galaer, FWIW I can't think of any logical reason why healing that comes in a bottle should be forbidden / frowned upon, but not healing that comes in other forms.

    I have argued previously that I think it is the effect that matters, not the package it comes in. hence why I would consider eating a breath-extending leaf the same as drinking a breath potion.

    But then the rules explicitly refer only to potions.

    So I guess for me eating healing fruits would be like eating the breath-leaf. Not technically against the rules as they are written, but down to the individual ghosdt to avoid them if they feell they violate the spirit of wat a ghost ought to do.

    But IF there was to be some new clarification then my own personal preference would be to first go by the effects of the consumable. And THEN to not call ANY healing a chemical assist. As I think "chemical assist"s should only be about artificial stat buff increases. I appreciate what you say about low health making things tenser, but your own feelings of tension are a different kind of thing than having some sort of in-game artificially enhanced guard-avoiding ability.

  10. #585
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    My perspective on this might be a bit different, since I don't follow the so-called official rules and my playstyle has a completely different approach to this, but I've always considered the no potions rule to be unnecessarily arbitrary. I'd personally phrase it more like "no ability-enhancing effects from items and interactable objects are allowed / ability-enhancing effects from items and interactable objects are frowned upon" with examples being stat-enhancing effects (speed boost, jump height increase, weight decrease, longer breath) and stealth-enhancing effects (invisibility, sound dampening).

  11. #586
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    Quote Originally Posted by Cigam View Post
    Galaer, FWIW I can't think of any logical reason why healing that comes in a bottle should be forbidden / frowned upon, but not healing that comes in other forms.
    I'm gonna answer to you by Hallucinations example. In this FM you have poison damage. It forces you to move quickly through mission. But because of supreme ghost rules you also must be very careful to avoid any 1st alerts. This is very interesting challenge, completely different than what is present in other missions. That's why I feel bad when someone wants to allow healing and completely trivialize this problem.

  12. #587
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    I haven't played that mission, but wouldn't you fail supreme ghost anyway because of the no damage rule?

  13. #588
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    Quote Originally Posted by Starker View Post
    I haven't played that mission, but wouldn't you fail supreme ghost anyway because of the no damage rule?
    I actually asked this question 2 years ago when I was supreme ghosting this mission and result of discussion was allowing poison damage as this damage isn't caused by player. That's also when I stated that I'm gonna supreme ghost this mission without healing and there was absolutely no one mentioning that healing should be allowed.

  14. #589
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2013
    Galaer, I am not sure that The Rules should be concerning themselves with non-ghosting issues. Whether or not healing yourself buys you time and makes you feel less pressure as you go about avoiding alerts, is not for The Rules to worry about IMO.

    The only issue is whether healing yourself is ghost-like. Either it is or it isn't. Personally I think it is irrelevant to ghosting, whether you drink or eat it.

    But if you think it is something to be frowned upon, then it seems to me that you ought to frown upon both eating and drinking the healing, not just the drinking of it.

  15. #590
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2000
    Location: Austin, Texas
    The original Ghosters that made the rules certainly knew about those things.
    I have to pop in here as I am trying to swallow this discussion directly above. And in a smaller way it reminds me of things from way back where wording was trying to be an issue. Looks to me like this is being over thought.

    Let me ask it this way. What is the difference between a Health Potion, a Healing Fruit, a Piece of Food that Heals you, a Leaf of some kind that heals you, or anything else in these games that any can heal you? I will just give you the answer. The answer is Nothing ! There is no difference. There is no difference in what they do, they restore your health. I guess you can argue that some heal 1 point each and some heal more points with each dose. But if you throw that at me it is just going to bounce off. Way back everyone knew what it meant in the Rules. But that was a while ago. Can't imagine that anyone thought back then that the Potion wording would one day confuse things. But it looks like it has. When a Health Potion is mentioned in the Rules, suffice it to mean anything that restores or adds to your your health. That is the logic of it. I can remedy wording issues in The Ghost Rules to make it clear what was meant pretty easily with only a few words, especially Supreme Ghost.

    As far as Health Damage in Ghost Mode being allowed but Frowned upon, Ya know, once upon a time we were pretty green at this Ghost stuff. It was all new. Way back when, some people thought allowing some health damage was needed. But over time everyone who Ghosted; just like you guys now; got REAL good at it. And there was a pretty big crew at The Eidos Thief Forum back then. Knowing how good everyone ultimately got at Ghost I don't think Health Damage would have been even brought up. Best not to be Frowned upon and take any damage even though it's allowed! Kind of betting you don't anyway.

    Health Potions are NOT Chemistry. Chemistry enhances your abilities. (I can see it coming. Is Holy Water Chemistry. And is Holy Water a Potion?

    Have been trying to filter through this long thread to be up on things. Haven't gotten it all yet. Wonder if I can? But I can see there will be some things that should be squared away wording wise in the Rules so they are clear.
    Last edited by Sneak; 18th Dec 2021 at 23:00.
    Just Sneakin Through!

  16. #591
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2000
    Location: Austin, Texas
    Thought I would say something about the comments above about The Dark Mod and candles. I have been playing a bunch of Dark Mod lately like some of you. My experience has been that when I take a lit candle out of a gold candle holder and set it down still lit it stays lit. But when I take the candle holder, the candle goes out. Every time! Even if I move the candle across the room. Am sure we are playing different missions but I haven't yet had a candle go out when I remove it and re-light when I take the gold. If some one would post a mission this happens in I would like to check it out.

    If it matters I am playing Dark Mod version 2.09.

    As far as it being a bug, is possible. I can't remember who posted it above but you nailed it. There is a hard and fast Rule about lights in Supreme. So if the light goes out it is a Bust!
    Last edited by Sneak; 18th Dec 2021 at 21:07.
    Just Sneakin Through!

  17. #592
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2000
    Location: Austin, Texas
    Klatremus,
    You asked me a question about 2 months ago on the subject of Lock Picking and some maybe being unnecessary in Supreme Ghost. That went right by and I never replied to it. Actually it is not an easy quick answer either, though I do have an answer. Let me get my thoughts together and I will lay it out for you.
    Last edited by Sneak; 18th Dec 2021 at 21:09.
    Just Sneakin Through!

  18. #593
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    Quote Originally Posted by Sneak View Post
    Health Potions are NOT Chemistry. Chemistry enhances your abilities. (I can see it coming. Is Holy Water Chemistry. And is Holy Water a Potion?
    Your take on this is interesting, because I think ever ghoster active on the forums right now would definitely say health potions would break Supreme and render a regular Ghost run a chemical run. Simply because the rule is flat out mentioning potions and not limiting it to specific kinds of potions. Since we haven't had the original makers (as in you and Peter Smith) around at a reliable rate, we have basically worked with the principle: 'The rules are the rules are the rules.' Sometimes we have sought to clarify them, but never added or removed something that would possibly render old reports obsolete or, worse still, useless. Saying healing potions do not make it a chemical run would be changing the rule compared to what we have solidly interpreted it as for years.

    Also, holy water vials was in 2017 added to the rules as NOT being considered potions by the community, mainly because vials are not ingested but instead applied to your arrows, so there is no chemical alteration to Garrett at all. That's why they're called holy water vials and not holy water potions. Check out Supreme rule #5 for this wording.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sneak View Post
    Am sure we are playing different missions but I haven't yet had a candle go out when I remove it and re-light when I take the gold.
    The only mission I've experienced this in is The Heart of Lone Salvation (which is a fantastic must play mission btw), but with a small correction. The candle doesn't go out automatically when removing it, but if I pick up the candle part and then press use to put it out, then set it down somewhere, if I then take the holder the candle relights. It happened to 6 different candlesticks in that mission. I treated those all as Supreme busts and skipped them, even though I could limit the candle to being put out only for a second. But all other missions I've played the candle stays lit when I take the holder, which makes it ok for Supreme.

    By the way, did you see that we have added the "official" ghost rules for The Dark Mod? Check them out in the rules thread.

  19. #594
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    @Sneak: About potions I agree with most of what you said. Except healing is actually ability. That's why it should also trigger chemical state. Normally when you get hurt in mission, you will only get healed to full health at the beginning of next mission. Thanks to healing potions and healing food you can enhance this ability to heal yourself during current mission. Just like in real life, sometimes just resting will heal you from disease in 1 month, but if you take medicine it will take you only 1-2 weeks.

  20. #595
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2013
    Quote Originally Posted by Sneak View Post
    When a Health Potion is mentioned in the Rules, suffice it to mean anything that restores or adds to your your health. That is the logic of it.
    Happy to see that one of the authors agrees with the belief that it is the effects that matter, not the package it comes in. (So those breath-potion esque leafs should be treated the same as breath potions).

    Just wondering though, I don't think the rules mention either health potions or health restoration at all. So while I am happy for the clarification that any health-granting consumable comes under the umbrella of "health potion", I am a bit unsure as to whether the umbrella is allowed or disallowed for supreme? (or does or doesn't count as a chemical success for ghost?)

    On another note, isn't it always the way when writing a "constitution" that the authors just cannot future-proof them from debates over interpretations. Maybe 20 years from now, another group of fans will be arguing over the meanings of some of the current modern clarifications
    Last edited by Cigam; 19th Dec 2021 at 14:51.

  21. #596
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2000
    Location: Austin, Texas
    WOW! Love the Passion. I feel kinda Proud ! As I said somewhere in a post, am truly happy this is still on going.

    I have played The Heart of Lone Salvation many times. Even back when it came out. Just replayed it recently. No doubt it is a Great one ! The whole Thieves Den series is good. So I just reloaded it for another look at the candles. Klatremus I see what you are talking about. I never thought to remove a candle and put it out and then take the candle holder. But those two items do seem to be linked. I found two candles in gold holders in one room, one lit and the other one not. The candle that was not lit, when I took the holder away the candle fell off and lit up. If I took the unlit candle out and carried it over to the other candle and lit it from that candle and then took it back and set it down by the holder it came from, then took that holder, the candle would go out. If I did the same thing and took that candle back to its holder and snuffed it out myself, when I took the candle holder it would re-light.

    No doubt weird business with those candles

    On from Candles.

    It's a Game, only a Game! Any references to Real Life..............

    I have seen the Official Rules page and the clarifications for Dark Mod. I have had that Rules page up as a saved Tab in my browser for quite some time to make an easy reference while catching up on the thread. Lot of stuff here.

    I do have items on my mind. As I touched on above, it seems that some wording in the rules was not clearly detailed for future players even though at the time it was clear to us. But for now I am just going to post this again with a question added and see what comes back. Will see if I can glean anything.

    Health Potions are NOT Chemistry. Chemistry enhances your abilities.

    Why do you need to heal yourself?
    Just Sneakin Through!

  22. #597
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2013
    Sneak, it may be impossible to avoid damage in some circumstances. Then you might need to heal to prevent death if another impossible-to-avoid-damage situation was to later occur.

    People have, for example, mentioned a FM were you begin poisoned, and lose health throughout if I remember correctly.

  23. #598
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2015
    Location: Shawano County, Wisconsin
    A while back, I did a Supreme Ghost run of "Finals at the Academy." Partway through the mission, you lose a chunk of health as a scripted consequence of following one of the story objectives, which I figured was acceptable and not a bust (similar to the alarm in "Undercover").

    In that same mission, you can trigger an optional objective to find a medallion that passively heals you. At the time, I saw no problem with triggering and completing this objective because I didn't interpret the healing medallion to fall under the "no potion effects" rule. Should I have come to a different conclusion here?

  24. #599
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2000
    Location: Austin, Texas
    Quote Originally Posted by Grandmauden View Post
    A while back, I did a Supreme Ghost run of "Finals at the Academy." Partway through the mission, you lose a chunk of health as a scripted consequence of following one of the story objectives, which I figured was acceptable and not a bust (similar to the alarm in "Undercover").

    In that same mission, you can trigger an optional objective to find a medallion that passively heals you. At the time, I saw no problem with triggering and completing this objective because I didn't interpret the healing medallion to fall under the "no potion effects" rule. Should I have come to a different conclusion here?
    If the loss of health was for sure a script there is no Bust. And if you have an Objective (even optional) to get that item that heals you that is also not a Bust. You have to complete all Objectives and the Objectives outweigh the Rules.

  25. #600
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2015
    Location: Shawano County, Wisconsin
    Yeah, but it's also possible to avoid the trigger that makes the optional objective appear in the first place. So I'm mainly curious as to whether it would've been more in the spirit of the rules to avoid making the objective appear and thus avoid unnecessary healing, if the rules were intended to discourage healing from any source.

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