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Thread: Ghost rules discussion

  1. #626
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    @klatremus: So for you frobbing items through solid windows is completely different than frobbing them through solid doors and walls? How so? Wait, let me guess. It's because item behind window is visible, right? That would mean that frobbing items through glass is allowed. And glass doesn't appear only in windows. There are also glass doors and glass display cases. They are probably allowed too. Naive nobles locks behind them valuable items, but it's useless. Everyone knows that glass isn't any obstacle for Garrett. Hell, I'm surprised that you decided to break glass in Mines of Margoth. You should just let Garrett walk through it.

    Jokes aside, so do you allow frobbing through every window? There is many kinds of windows. There is square hole in wall that acts as window, there is glass windows (some of them are opened and some aren't), there are windows with wooden shutters. What about wooden shutters? You can't see through them, but you can still pick items through them. And they are part of windows? Are they allowed too? There is also many kinds of windows: solid metal/wooden doors, glass doors or metal doors with glass window in it or even metal doors with bars (which means they also have gap in them). Are they all forbidden for you just because they are doors?

    I don't think you understand this problem very well. It's not because of items extended frob range, it's rather because solid barriers by default don't block this frob range and they should. Check this thread. In post #3 is mentioned glass cabinet, so the problem is similar for glass windows. But if you want there is thread exactly about frobbing through windows. Like you see FM creators must go into extra length to block frobbing through solid barriers. In post #22 this bug is mentioned as Dromed bug. Since Dromed works on Dark Engine, this bug is also engine bug and FM creators must do extra tricks to prevent it.

    Exploit = using unintended bug to your advantage. And you used unintended bug to your advantage, which means you used exploit. I have no idea why do you associate exploits with complicated techniques. If bug is simple, it doesn't require any special maneuver to exploit it. If bug is complicated to do, then you need complicated technique.

    As for stacking items, I will also add strafe jumping and bunny hopping as they were never intended. You say it's the same case with frobbing through solid barriers. But you are wrong. FM creators want to prevent player from frobbing through solid barriers. They want player to play the intended by them way and open first this barrier.

    On the other hand, other mentioned previously techniques are actually used as intended stats to beat some FMs. In one of FMs you get infinite crate and you need to do super high stack to the top of the tower. In Up into the Bonehoard you also get infinite crate to help you to progress as the whole Bonehoard is upside down. In Heist at Hilbert's Highrise Hotel you need strafe jumping to get to certain gallery to complete optional objective. In Les Paolis you need strafe jumping to get to certain window to complete one of objectives (not many people figured out this intended by Cardia's strat, so author put speed potion to help players). In Tomb of St Tennor bunny hopping is used to get to easter egg.

    In other words, there are more believable techniques that may be used as intended ways to beat missions. And frobbing through solid objects has negative opinion. It will never become intended strat.

    As for Sneak's report, it was beginning of supreme ghosting. No idea how big was knowledge about exploits just 2 years after release of Thief 2. I have no idea if back then there was any rule preventing exploits or was it add later. Also supreme ghost community was small, so I don't think there was anyone to discuss this problem. So I'm guessing Sneak just overlooked it.

  2. #627
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    Quote Originally Posted by Galaer View Post
    Exploit = using unintended bug to your advantage. And you used unintended bug to your advantage, which means you used exploit. I have no idea why do you associate exploits with complicated techniques. If bug is simple, it doesn't require any special maneuver to exploit it. If bug is complicated to do, then you need complicated technique.
    Where do you get this definition from? Not in the rules. The rules use the word "quirk" and does not say unintended anywhere. I associate it with complicated techniques because the only examples listed in the rules on this topic are complicated techniques; banner transmigration, nudging guards, blocking enemies with barrels...these are very complicated techniques. And Galaer, if banner transmigration is mentioned in the rules as an example (as in Garrett physically moving through banners in order to end up on the other side), why aren't taking objects through banners, windows or doors also mentioned? These certainly are much more common occurrences than being able to penetrate the banner.

    This isn't about trying to find every single instance in missions that are unintended and disallowing them. If so, then mantling up to the top of rooftops in areas that the author didn't want you to go would also qualify. This is about stopping the player bending the engine in exploitative ways using techniques developed during the early years of ghosting. That's why the rule was made in the first place. If those techniques hadn't been developed or possible, I doubt the rule would even have existed. It seems like you are trying to accuse me of just excusing busts here. What I am doing is trying to figure out what the rule is covering, and I'm basing that on the examples laid out in the rules.

    If I am mistaken and this is supposed to be covered by the rule, then I will adhere to that interpretation, but I will also say I think the original rules then were written sloppily.

  3. #628
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    @klatremus: Gentle clip also isn't mentioned in the rules. Does that mean it's not an exploit? But true, it's complicated technique. So let's try something simple. Using dead body as a cushion to not get fall damage isn't listed either. So that's not exploit either. Or falling on other AI from very high spot. This also doesn't require any complicated technique and it's possible to do it without AI 1st alerting. So I guess that's also allowed for supreme. Look, klatremus, it's not rules purpose to cover every possible exploit and every possible situation for every rule. If this would be done, rules would grow 10 times and they would be hard to read.

    Mantling is hard. I will use example of Les Paolis. I mantled on roof in Mission 1 and I was sure that this place is unintended to go, but soon I found loot there. So looks like this roof was actually intended. So it's hard to judge sometimes what's intended and what's not. Usually it is indicated by seeing the end of the world and lack of sound. Also new mantle can break really easily olddark missions and you can climb into unintended places. But what if these unintended places has sound and you don't see boundaries of the map. If you never played this mission in olddark, how can you know if mantling somewhere was intended or not? You can't, you would need to play these FMs in olddark, but it's not always possible, because olddark game can crash on modern computers. As for your way, I remember that you said that you know about shortcut avoiding fight in Keeper's Training, but you avoid that, because you want to play mission as intended as possible. But you had no problem with using unintended route to ghost 1st mission of T2X. So I never knew if you allow using new mantle to get into unintended places or not.

    My problem with this situation is that you first mentioned that Garrett can reach places on the other side of barriers if there is a gap in this barrier. And i would say this is healthy limitation of this exploit. That's why you can grab stuff behind banner, because Garrett's hand goes behind banner. That's believable. But then you completely change the story and grab staff through solid glass window without any gaps. And then you say that frobbing stuff through every window is allowed, but not through doors and walls. First of all, I don't think every window is equal, I think your previous explanation would work on opened or broken windows, but not on closed windows. And why exactly closed windows are better than closed doors. I mean this bug works in absolutely the same way. Nothing changes. I find your exception as weird and illogical.

  4. #629
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    Quote Originally Posted by Galaer View Post
    Gentle clip also isn't mentioned in the rules.
    I don't know what gentle clip is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galaer View Post
    Using dead body as a cushion to not get fall damage isn't listed either. Or falling on other AI from very high spot.
    These would be up to each player. Cushioning a fall could be seen as similar to landing on a ladder or landing in a mantle from high up, which is ok for ghost. Others might think falling on another AI is nudging it a bit, so that might be looked at as an exploit. I have never needed to use either of those methods in any ghost report as far as I can remember.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galaer View Post
    As for your way, I remember that you said that you know about shortcut avoiding fight in Keeper's Training, but you avoid that, because you want to play mission as intended as possible. But you had no problem with using unintended route to ghost 1st mission of T2X. So I never knew if you allow using new mantle to get into unintended places or not.
    I would allow it always, I simply chose not to mantle the roof in Training Mission because it wasn't necessary to avoid a ghost bust. In T2X it was, so I climbed the roof to get the ghost success. I clearly stated that in the video and wrote in the report also that it could only be done in NewDark. I did the same thing in Return to the Cathedral to mantle over the gate without having to leave a crate behind, something that is only possible in newdark. It's certainly not an exploit either way. I never said reaching unintended roof was an exploit, I simply said if using your definition of "unintended" then a lot of things count as exploits, for example finding unintended areas to climb roofs. I have no problem with climbing roofs even heading to areas without sound or seeing outside the border of the map.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galaer View Post
    That's why you can grab stuff behind banner, because Garrett's hand goes behind banner. That's believable. But then you completely change the story and grab staff through solid glass window without any gaps.
    I think I originally felt getting the key behind the window was ok because the window was unlocked and openable, so just like slipping hand behind banner I imagined Garrett slightly opening the window and getting the key. Sometimes banners too are flush with the wall and you'd have to pull it out almost open it in order to get the items behind. But even taking items through doors I'm not sure if the rule covers. Hopefully Sneak chimes in on this. I'd be glad to hear the original intention of the rule.

    The exploit rule has always been the vaguest of all the rules. Only extreme examples are listed, so I always felt you'd have to do something quite extreme in order to break this rule. Some rules are simply up for interpretation, so then any player can report the method used and explain what he did, and rule it as success or not success. If done in good faith and open to the community, that is usually accepted.
    Last edited by klatremus; 11th Jan 2022 at 20:19.

  5. #630
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    @klatremus: Gentle clip is technique to clip through solid barriers like doors or glass. Speedrunners use that technique a lot. You can also clip through walls that aren't part of any secret passage (it's used to beat faster Bafford's Manor). To do that you need to block with weapon, lean to the side and mantle into wall. Something like that. You mentioned that you managed to clip through glass in Thief 2 Demo to get to abandoned building, so I thought you are familiar with this technique.

    About exploits: are you fine with making doors vanish in older missions. You need to use this door at least once and after some time if you use it again it will vanish if fully opened. This way you don't need to open and close doors all the time, especially useful when door automatically closes after couple of seconds. Or when door will start flying away, which is also possible. These also requires just frobbing and isn't listed in rules. So is that also not exploit for you?

    As for Training Mission: by skipping fight you don't deal any damage, which looks better in the stats. Plus thanks to the skip you don't need to grab sword and bow, which means they become unnecessary pickups.

    About window: if you open it even slightly, then wind is gonna extinguish candle. So what will happen if Garrett will slip his hand inside? Do you think that gap will only be where Garrett's hand is? No, because window isn't made from gum. This will obviously crate gap above and below Garrett's hand, so wind can extinguish candle again.

  6. #631
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    Yes then I know what gentle clip is, I just wasn't familiar with the term. I used it to get ghost success in Haunted Cathedral in my segmented run. That is transmigration of a barrier, so that would follow the rule and be an exploit.

    Vanishing doors are just annoying. I try to prevent it if I can, but if it happens it's certainly no bust. Not an exploit no.

    Well since I used the bow and sword to proceed, then they weren't unnecessary for me. True the stats would look cleaner. Good point.

    I assumed this was one of a kind rubber window that can mold around your hand and seal shut so no air is let through.

  7. #632
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    @klatremus: You asked about definition of exploit. It's here. Using vanishing doors as example, bug itself isn't an exploit just yet. But if for example you need to enter somewhere and opening door doesn't alert anyone, but closing it leads to 1st alert, then vanishing door would help you and it would lead you to exploiting this game.

    Also there is no rubber windows in Thief games.

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