Ghost rules discussion

[Galaer]

@klatremus: So for you frobbing items through solid windows is completely different than frobbing them through solid doors and walls? How so? Wait, let me guess. It's because item behind window is visible, right? That would mean that frobbing items through glass is allowed. And glass doesn't appear only in windows. There are also glass doors and glass display cases. They are probably allowed too. Naive nobles locks behind them valuable items, but it's useless. Everyone knows that glass isn't any obstacle for Garrett. Hell, I'm surprised that you decided to break glass in Mines of Margoth. You should just let Garrett walk through it.

Jokes aside, so do you allow frobbing through every window? There is many kinds of windows. There is square hole in wall that acts as window, there is glass windows (some of them are opened and some aren't), there are windows with wooden shutters. What about wooden shutters? You can't see through them, but you can still pick items through them. And they are part of windows? Are they allowed too? There is also many kinds of windows: solid metal/wooden doors, glass doors or metal doors with glass window in it or even metal doors with bars (which means they also have gap in them). Are they all forbidden for you just because they are doors?

I don't think you understand this problem very well. It's not because of items extended frob range, it's rather because solid barriers by default don't block this frob range and they should. Check this thread. In post #3 is mentioned glass cabinet, so the problem is similar for glass windows. But if you want there is thread exactly about frobbing through windows. Like you see FM creators must go into extra length to block frobbing through solid barriers. In post #22 this bug is mentioned as Dromed bug. Since Dromed works on Dark Engine, this bug is also engine bug and FM creators must do extra tricks to prevent it.

Exploit = using unintended bug to your advantage. And you used unintended bug to your advantage, which means you used exploit. I have no idea why do you associate exploits with complicated techniques. If bug is simple, it doesn't require any special maneuver to exploit it. If bug is complicated to do, then you need complicated technique.

As for stacking items, I will also add strafe jumping and bunny hopping as they were never intended. You say it's the same case with frobbing through solid barriers. But you are wrong. FM creators want to prevent player from frobbing through solid barriers. They want player to play the intended by them way and open first this barrier.

On the other hand, other mentioned previously techniques are actually used as intended stats to beat some FMs. In one of FMs you get infinite crate and you need to do super high stack to the top of the tower. In Up into the Bonehoard you also get infinite crate to help you to progress as the whole Bonehoard is upside down. In Heist at Hilbert's Highrise Hotel you need strafe jumping to get to certain gallery to complete optional objective. In Les Paolis you need strafe jumping to get to certain window to complete one of objectives (not many people figured out this intended by Cardia's strat, so author put speed potion to help players). In Tomb of St Tennor bunny hopping is used to get to easter egg.

In other words, there are more believable techniques that may be used as intended ways to beat missions. And frobbing through solid objects has negative opinion. It will never become intended strat.

As for Sneak's report, it was beginning of supreme ghosting. No idea how big was knowledge about exploits just 2 years after release of Thief 2. I have no idea if back then there was any rule preventing exploits or was it add later. Also supreme ghost community was small, so I don't think there was anyone to discuss this problem. So I'm guessing Sneak just overlooked it.

[klatremus]

Exploit = using unintended bug to your advantage. And you used unintended bug to your advantage, which means you used exploit. I have no idea why do you associate exploits with complicated techniques. If bug is simple, it doesn't require any special maneuver to exploit it. If bug is complicated to do, then you need complicated technique.

Where do you get this definition from? Not in the rules. The rules use the word "quirk" and does not say unintended anywhere. I associate it with complicated techniques because the only examples listed in the rules on this topic are complicated techniques; banner transmigration, nudging guards, blocking enemies with barrels...these are very complicated techniques. And Galaer, if banner transmigration is mentioned in the rules as an example (as in Garrett physically moving through banners in order to end up on the other side), why aren't taking objects through banners, windows or doors also mentioned? These certainly are much more common occurrences than being able to penetrate the banner.

This isn't about trying to find every single instance in missions that are unintended and disallowing them. If so, then mantling up to the top of rooftops in areas that the author didn't want you to go would also qualify. This is about stopping the player bending the engine in exploitative ways using techniques developed during the early years of ghosting. That's why the rule was made in the first place. If those techniques hadn't been developed or possible, I doubt the rule would even have existed. It seems like you are trying to accuse me of just excusing busts here. What I am doing is trying to figure out what the rule is covering, and I'm basing that on the examples laid out in the rules.

If I am mistaken and this is supposed to be covered by the rule, then I will adhere to that interpretation, but I will also say I think the original rules then were written sloppily.

[Galaer]

@klatremus: Gentle clip also isn't mentioned in the rules. Does that mean it's not an exploit? But true, it's complicated technique. So let's try something simple. Using dead body as a cushion to not get fall damage isn't listed either. So that's not exploit either. Or falling on other AI from very high spot. This also doesn't require any complicated technique and it's possible to do it without AI 1st alerting. So I guess that's also allowed for supreme. Look, klatremus, it's not rules purpose to cover every possible exploit and every possible situation for every rule. If this would be done, rules would grow 10 times and they would be hard to read.

Mantling is hard. I will use example of Les Paolis. I mantled on roof in Mission 1 and I was sure that this place is unintended to go, but soon I found loot there. So looks like this roof was actually intended. So it's hard to judge sometimes what's intended and what's not. Usually it is indicated by seeing the end of the world and lack of sound. Also new mantle can break really easily olddark missions and you can climb into unintended places. But what if these unintended places has sound and you don't see boundaries of the map. If you never played this mission in olddark, how can you know if mantling somewhere was intended or not? You can't, you would need to play these FMs in olddark, but it's not always possible, because olddark game can crash on modern computers. As for your way, I remember that you said that you know about shortcut avoiding fight in Keeper's Training, but you avoid that, because you want to play mission as intended as possible. But you had no problem with using unintended route to ghost 1st mission of T2X. So I never knew if you allow using new mantle to get into unintended places or not.

My problem with this situation is that you first mentioned that Garrett can reach places on the other side of barriers if there is a gap in this barrier. And i would say this is healthy limitation of this exploit. That's why you can grab stuff behind banner, because Garrett's hand goes behind banner. That's believable. But then you completely change the story and grab staff through solid glass window without any gaps. And then you say that frobbing stuff through every window is allowed, but not through doors and walls. First of all, I don't think every window is equal, I think your previous explanation would work on opened or broken windows, but not on closed windows. And why exactly closed windows are better than closed doors. I mean this bug works in absolutely the same way. Nothing changes. I find your exception as weird and illogical.

[klatremus]

Gentle clip also isn't mentioned in the rules.

I don't know what gentle clip is.

Using dead body as a cushion to not get fall damage isn't listed either. Or falling on other AI from very high spot.

These would be up to each player. Cushioning a fall could be seen as similar to landing on a ladder or landing in a mantle from high up, which is ok for ghost. Others might think falling on another AI is nudging it a bit, so that might be looked at as an exploit. I have never needed to use either of those methods in any ghost report as far as I can remember.

As for your way, I remember that you said that you know about shortcut avoiding fight in Keeper's Training, but you avoid that, because you want to play mission as intended as possible. But you had no problem with using unintended route to ghost 1st mission of T2X. So I never knew if you allow using new mantle to get into unintended places or not.

I would allow it always, I simply chose not to mantle the roof in Training Mission because it wasn't necessary to avoid a ghost bust. In T2X it was, so I climbed the roof to get the ghost success. I clearly stated that in the video and wrote in the report also that it could only be done in NewDark. I did the same thing in Return to the Cathedral to mantle over the gate without having to leave a crate behind, something that is only possible in newdark. It's certainly not an exploit either way. I never said reaching unintended roof was an exploit, I simply said if using your definition of "unintended" then a lot of things count as exploits, for example finding unintended areas to climb roofs. I have no problem with climbing roofs even heading to areas without sound or seeing outside the border of the map.

That's why you can grab stuff behind banner, because Garrett's hand goes behind banner. That's believable. But then you completely change the story and grab staff through solid glass window without any gaps.

I think I originally felt getting the key behind the window was ok because the window was unlocked and openable, so just like slipping hand behind banner I imagined Garrett slightly opening the window and getting the key. Sometimes banners too are flush with the wall and you'd have to pull it out almost open it in order to get the items behind. But even taking items through doors I'm not sure if the rule covers. Hopefully Sneak chimes in on this. I'd be glad to hear the original intention of the rule.

The exploit rule has always been the vaguest of all the rules. Only extreme examples are listed, so I always felt you'd have to do something quite extreme in order to break this rule. Some rules are simply up for interpretation, so then any player can report the method used and explain what he did, and rule it as success or not success. If done in good faith and open to the community, that is usually accepted.

[Galaer]

@klatremus: Gentle clip is technique to clip through solid barriers like doors or glass. Speedrunners use that technique a lot. You can also clip through walls that aren't part of any secret passage (it's used to beat faster Bafford's Manor). To do that you need to block with weapon, lean to the side and mantle into wall. Something like that. You mentioned that you managed to clip through glass in Thief 2 Demo to get to abandoned building, so I thought you are familiar with this technique.

About exploits: are you fine with making doors vanish in older missions. You need to use this door at least once and after some time if you use it again it will vanish if fully opened. This way you don't need to open and close doors all the time, especially useful when door automatically closes after couple of seconds. Or when door will start flying away, which is also possible. These also requires just frobbing and isn't listed in rules. So is that also not exploit for you?

As for Training Mission: by skipping fight you don't deal any damage, which looks better in the stats. Plus thanks to the skip you don't need to grab sword and bow, which means they become unnecessary pickups.

About window: if you open it even slightly, then wind is gonna extinguish candle. So what will happen if Garrett will slip his hand inside? Do you think that gap will only be where Garrett's hand is? No, because window isn't made from gum. This will obviously crate gap above and below Garrett's hand, so wind can extinguish candle again.

[klatremus]

Yes then I know what gentle clip is, I just wasn't familiar with the term. I used it to get ghost success in Haunted Cathedral in my segmented run. That is transmigration of a barrier, so that would follow the rule and be an exploit.

Vanishing doors are just annoying. I try to prevent it if I can, but if it happens it's certainly no bust. Not an exploit no.

Well since I used the bow and sword to proceed, then they weren't unnecessary for me. True the stats would look cleaner. Good point.

I assumed this was one of a kind rubber window that can mold around your hand and seal shut so no air is let through.

[Galaer]

@klatremus: You asked about definition of exploit. It's here. Using vanishing doors as example, bug itself isn't an exploit just yet. But if for example you need to enter somewhere and opening door doesn't alert anyone, but closing it leads to 1st alert, then vanishing door would help you and it would lead you to exploiting this game.

Also there is no rubber windows in Thief games.

[klatremus]

I am turning this situation over to the community to see if anyone can help. I am trying to ghost The Turning of the Leaves, and due to the whole bolt-cutter situation, this mission is stumping my progress. Cutting the lock is a ghost bust, so we need to get into the thief's hideout by somehow climbing this gate:



I legitimately thought it would be possible, as there are several areas where it seems like you can get over the wall. Problem is there are so few stackable items in the mission, and it seems like Nicked lowered the ceiling height in those areas to prevent climbing over anyway. I also tried the "gentle clip" as Galaer called it, in order to clip through the gate, but I didn't get that to work either. If I could get through, then I was hoping the lock would be pickable in order to get back out, as the lockpicks are inside the hideout.

We haven't had one of these community strats developed for a while, so it would be cool if we could sort this pickle out.

To arms, brothers!

[Galaer]

I play Broken Hammers now. At the beginning of this mission is fight between haunts and Hammerites, then Garrett lose health and teleports to real part of mission. At first I thought damage is scripted, but looks like there is haunt appearing behind Garrett. Around Garrett there is invisible wall preventing him to leave this place. That's why I thought this is a cutscene, but looks like you can move couple of steps and even jump. With jumping you can mantle over invisible wall and explore this area. Only this one haunt is enemy, other haunts are neutral to you. And only damage dealt by this one haunt teleports you to next area. So my question is: should I count this situation as a ghost bust or excuse that as part of cutscene?

2nd question: at the end of mission I get objective to defeat undead army, then there is battle between haunts and Hammerites. Hammerites will die, so I assist them with flashbomb. Thanks to that Hammerites kill haunts and I complete objective of defeating undead army. Is this assist will be considered ghost bust or not?

@klatremus: when I casually ghosted this mission I only managed to climb to roof in one of places, but due to low ceiling it was impossible to get on the other side of wall. As for gentle clip - I don't use it, because it's extremely powerful exploit that can destroy the whole ghosting challenge. You can clip through every door, gate portcullis, even in some circumstances through some walls. That's why even though exploits are allowed for regular ghost, I think this technique should be banned even for regular ghost.

[Cigam]

Galaer, on the first point, sounds to me like it is scripted so that the Haunt inevitably appears and is meant to damage you, as an unavoidable part of the story? For me, that a player can find a cheat way to avoid a scripted intended event, doesn't override the script aspect. Well unless if the author intended you to be able to escape. But from your description that seems unlikely?

On the second point, I think it's OK? You are tasked with defeating the army. You'd just have to manually attack them yourself if you didn't assist the Hammers. Though I suppose some might disagree if the precise wording was "kill the undead army". Because they might say only literal killing is excused, not stunning. But if the word is literally "defeat" well that doesn't say "direct killing only". Are you absolutely sure though, that the Hammers can never win on their own? If it was a question of reloading until they do, then no issue.

[klatremus]

Both of those situations seem borderline, Galaer. The first is tricky because yes it is a script, but so is the appearance of any enemy. Is the haunt spotting you, as in giving an alert? If so definitely a bust, but if it isnt and just dealing forced damage without getting alerted then id say no. Then it's the same as the poison in KotP, since you are stuck in a tiny place and the mission is designed to give you damage. Do you always take the same amount of damage?

As for the second situation yes the objective is saying kill the undead but if you use flash bombs you will alert them, which is a bust. Here I would reload and see if the Hammerites can kill them. Or maybe hope for only 1 haunt to survive, wait for it to settle, then kill it in one swipe.

Yes the gentle clip I dont like either. I wish they would release a newdark update and remove it. Just way too broken and immersion breaking. I think I'll call it a bust and just move on. Cant find a way past that gate.

[Galaer]

In Sun Within and Sun Without there are banners that count as loot, but in order to collect them you must first cut them. Does that still count as damage property?

[Cigam]

Galaer, perhaps you could argue that Garrett is allowed to damage his own property? If the entire banner disappears and gets transferred into your loot stash, then it's your loot that has been damaged? This is different than leaving behind a damaged banner that remains the property of the original owner?

But then no doubt it is simpler, as always, to just consider the game mechanics. At the point you slash the banner you are causing property damage to property. That it will in the future become a piece of loot you can pick up doesn't affect what is happening in the present? Other things haven't been excused because of future events and changes.

[klatremus]

Yeah I agree with Cigam's last paragraph. Future events dont impact the ruling. It's the same when alerting an enemy before you kill him, even if the objective excused the kill itself. Getting seen first is a bust, just the same as slashing the banner first is a bust.

[klatremus]

I would like to propose an amendment to rule #8 of the main ghost rules, basically to disallow the use of the "gentle clip" method. For those that don't know, it's where you block with your sword, then crouch-lean-jump in order to clip through solid structures. There are 3 main reasons why I think this should be disallowed:

1) It requires NewDark and newmantle must be set to ON.
2) It was never considered in the original rule set, simply because it didn't exist.
3) It potentially breaks every single mission, all you have to do it go around and try it on every wall and most likely you'll find an area that takes you past the problem. This makes it different from other engine exploits in that it doesn't require a specific circumstance, like enemies for nudging, or a thin layer to lean through a banner.

I feel it also invalidates so many of the old ghost reports that never had this method at the player's disposal. Personally, I would never use it, but it also leaves a bad taste in my mouth knowing that someone could just find a place to gentle clip past a problem that a ghoster has deemed unghostable.

Thoughts?

[marbleman]

I don't think it's necessary. It's an exploit like any other and is, in my opinion, not any worse than flare elevatoring, which has never been outright banned. If someone goes back to those older missions and finds ways of bypassing ghost busts with it, well, all power to them. I don't think it invalidates a report made without the exploit.

[Galaer]

@klatremus:
1) I believe that gentle clip is actually easier to do in Olddark without new mantle and in Newdark it's just harder to perform it.
2) I disagree with that statement. During my ghost runs I noticed some interactions, which led me to learn new ghosting techniques. For example other way than using rope or ladder to quietly descend into water. I use for that mantling. If ledge is slightly above water or on the same level as water and ledge is mantleable, you can try to mantle slightly above water and then immediately cancel it. This way you can quietly drop into water. It may be an exploit, though it works similarly to descending via ladders - you slow down your falling speed. Should I count using this technique as a ghost bust just because previous ghosters never found out about this technique? I don't think so.
3) With this statement I agree. Other exploits have some limitations that makes them useful only in certain places. This one can be used to clip through every door, every gate and even certain solid walls of certain width (I believe it's 1 unit). Thanks to that you bypass every challenge. I believe that ghosting wasn't create just to score as many successes as possible, but rather for players to have fun. But can you really say that you have fun if you skip the whole challenge?

[klatremus]

@Galaer:
1) Excuse me!? I have never heard of anyone doing that move in Olddark, or seen it on video. Have you actually done it? Could you provide a link to a video of someone doing that in Olddark? The first time I heard about the move was from Phych0sis who is a speedrunner. In their community they use that clip all the time, but he told me it was only possible in NewDark with newmantle on.
2) That move has actually been known for a long time. Clayman did that move to get the ring from the spiders in Baffords without using crates. He took the loot by doing a half-mantle from the water and sliding back down without making noise. My point wasn't to disallow all unknown exploits, Galaer. It was to disallow the gentle clip, which at least I thought was only a NewDark feature. And it was in conjunction with the other 2 points also, not just based on 2) alone.

[Galaer]

@klatremus:
1) This is Psychosis video. He plays in Olddark and performs gentle clip without weapons.
2) The way you mentioned that was like only exploits mentioned in the rules can be used and unknown for previous ghosters exploits or techniques are violation to the rules. But it's not like these exploits were find all at once, so there are definitely still some unknown techniques to discover. As for clayman's report - I couldn't find it. But from what you are saying the purpose was to elevate yourself from water to reach loot and quickly drop it into water without making noise. I don't think it was known to fall into water quietly from ground.
3) Since we are talking about clipping how about banning clipping into walls in TDM too. I suspect this glitch is connected to low framerate, so if you have fast computer you will never experience that. I was playing complex mission and I have weak for this game laptop plus I left opened all doors, which made lag even bigger. And this glitch happened. Even though it happened to me only in one spot in this mission, I suspect it could be possible to use it often with even weaker hardware and potentially break other missions. Though I never checked what is the real advantage of clipping into walls in TDM as I was quickly reloading game.

[klatremus]

Wow, I never knew that! I stand corrected then. I wonder why I was told it could only be done in ND. In that case, there is no discussion, as it falls into the general engine exploit category. I don't think I will ever use this to claim success. I considered it before Turning of the Leaves, but it just seems like outright cheating. I've only ever used it once, in Haunted Cathedral to avoid using the fire arrow, but that was more to showcase the method, and that I know is only possible in NewDark.

[Galaer]

Since I don't see the point of making special thread for ghosting techniques I discovered I will put them here. No idea if some of these were also discovered before.

1) First thing isn't really a ghosting technique, but it was a useful trick for me. When you are equipped with weapon and move some objects constantly and you are annoyed by Garrett equipping weapon after putting object down, but you forget to put weapon down after you put the object, you can put down your weapon even when you carry objects. You can't change your weapons though.

2) Mantle cancel technique to drop quietly into water. This is the technique that I used 10+ times. There are 2 ways to use it based on where the surface of water is located. If water surface is a bit below ground and it's mantleable you can try to drop into water towards ground, mantle on it and immediately cancel it. If you were low enough above water when you mantle canceled, you should fall quietly into water. However if water surface is on the same level as ground and ground is mantleable, you need to drop on edge of ground and slowly go backwards towards water. When you notice that you start dropping, immediately mantle and cancel it to fall into water quietly.

3) I noticed 2 optimizations with nudging. First of all leaning can be useful when you try nudging someone. When for example you nudged guard on some chair or table you can try to stand and lean towards him to nudge him. Once I had situation where guard was in front of doorway that much that I couldn't nudge him from the side. Then leaning forward helped me. I opened door, leaned forward towards doorway and turned to the side towards guard. This allowed me to nudge him forward, so I could then switch to normal nudging from the side.

Small spiders can be really annoying to nudge with crate. They turn twice: first they do short turn and afterwards long 180 degrees turn and return to their original position. From what I know other ghosters put crate on these spiders and wait for their long turn, then quickly grab crate before it will hit ground. What I noticed is that crate can nudge spiders during their short turn as well. It's very small nudge, so it's easy to miss that. It's much slower nudge, but also much safer as you don't need to worry about crate hitting ground. This could potentially be useful during ironman ghost run or when you are getting crazy from crate hitting ground for 20th time.

4) Normally if you drop or throw crate into water it will stay non solid. But there is a way for it to be solid in water. You simply need to put crate on ground and bump into it, so it will fall on water. This technique could be useful if you need to get out of water, but ledge is a bit too high. Other use is if you need to drop into shallow water. This kind of water is shallow enough, so it will not nullify fall damage, but still deep enough, so every object dropped will non solid. I actually used crate in that way once to avoid fall damage.

5) Extended mantle. You do it in corners. You need to mantle on ledge or object and then turn to the side towards higher ledge. Your mantle will continue and you will manage to mantle on higher ledge even though it would be impossible for you to mantle there normally. Used this technique only once to get out of water. I placed crate in water near high ledge, then I mantled on it while having higher ledge on the side. It's possible that you can mantle on crate only thanks to the new mantle. You can't stay on crate as it's non solid, so during your mantle turn towards higher ledge and if you are close enough to it you will continue your mantle.

6) Returning arrows in form of lying on ground arrows is possible. You need area with high ceiling and also higher place than where you want to return arrows (2nd or 3rd floor in regards to the spot where you want to place arrows). From this higher place you need to shoot arrow upward, so it will fall on lower spot where you want to place arrow. After a long flight, it will deactivate and arrow will fall on ground in form of lying on ground arrow ready to pick up. Possibly useful in supreme ghost to return arrows, but due to the requirements of size of room it can be rarely used. I used it only once.

7) Falling from high place without getting hurt. This is the technique that I don't really understand how it works. Sometimes when you fall on edge of even middle of flat ground you will not receive any damage. I also know that if you find once the perfect angle you can repeat, but this technique is very precise. It requires jumping forward and through the whole fall you must hold forward and jump, otherwise you will get hurt. Also this no damage fall only happens when you jump into diagonal positions on your compass (it worked for me with NW and SW directions). It's really rare technique - in almost 3 years of ghosting it happened to me only couple of times. And it's possible to happen on both Thief Gold and Thief 2.

[marbleman]

Is destroying plants (such as pitcher plants and eyeball plants) against any rules?

[Galaer]

No idea about pitcher plant, but eyeball plant is an AI, so killing it is forbidden unless you have objective to kill it. Same goes with rats. No matter how neutral aI is you aren't allowed to kill it. Pitcher plant isn't AI and maybe could be classified as natural obstacle.

[klatremus]

Any creature that can react to your presence (hence an AI) would bust ghost if killed. Rats run away, eyeball plant turns towards you, regular plants dont. If the pitcher plant is just a decorative obstacle, then it's ok, unless its someone's property and would bust that rule instead.

[marbleman]

Pitcher plants hurt you when you get close, so I guess you could call that a reaction.