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Thread: Ghost rules discussion

  1. #101
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    Dml fixes are ok. They are made by the community to fix major problems, missions that cant be finished, objectives that cant be completed, loot that are out of bounds and cant be reached, those kind of things. What im saying is if there's a discrepancy between starting and in game objectives, then youd go with the latter. If there is only 5000 available and it requires 6000, then youll get what you can and explain that no more can be found, then shift ctrl alt del to end the mission. Whatever you do, as long as youre honest about it and explain your reasoning in the report, then you are fine.

  2. #102
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2013
    Quote Originally Posted by klatremus View Post
    Cigam: Losing health is only frowned upon in the plain Ghost rules, not disallowed completely. For Supreme it isn't allowed under any circumstance.
    Even so it's the principle. IMO no action that doesn't affect the environment or the disposition of AI, should be a bust of any Ghost. Disapproved of maybe, but not a bust.

  3. #103
    New Member
    Registered: Nov 2019
    Location: Sweden
    Hi, I'm thinking of doing some supreme ghost in The Dark Mod. Being that the rules were developed for Thief there will be some differences to consider. I've successfully supremed two of my own missions so far (in my mind), but I wonder if I can pose the following quandaries:

    1.
    In the Dark Mod you often run in to passive NPC's that will quip when they see you. They also react much more easily to you than would an enemy. How should this be treated while ghosting, is them reacting to you a bust or does it not count since they are allied/neutral? I know some missions in Thief require you to meet somebody etc and that wouldn't count as a bust, but is that because it's required to progress / is mandated by objectives?

    2.
    Sometimes guards will react to stolen loot, and the game does not count these types of alerts as "caused by player" as in it is not reflected in your post-game stealth report. My assumption has been to treat it as a bust, but I'm not sure what to make of it. The same principle would presumably go for AI noticing open doors (which also doesn't count as a hit on stealth score)?

    3.
    A clarification on "pinch lights" and switch lights, is it not permissible to turn these out even if they are relit after? I've been working under the assumption that it's a bust, but I also feel like maybe it's not a bust unless an AI comments on the lights being out? For example; "Those damned candles always going out", "They don't pay me to relight those..." etc.

    4.
    Is moving an object and not putting it back in it's place after considered a bust to Supreme? If the item becomes unfrobable after moving it is it still a bust? Maybe only if it's mandated by an objective? In my specific example a discoverable side mission requires you to take an item and place it in a specific spot, it then becomes unfrobable and the player is able to gain extra loot. In my run I skipped it since it was optional and I figured better to skip loot than bust supreme.

    Thanks!

  4. #104
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    Great questions!

    1. Neutral guards or the likes (servants, civilians, etc) usually do not count as busts, unless they see you use a weapon and clearly turn hostile. Allies that you are meeting certainly would not be a bust.

    2. Guards alerting to loot normally would bust supreme. However, this is fairly illogical as the loot being gone would necessarily be noticed sooner or later anyhow. If most of the loot in dark mod would be noticed as gone then it would all have to be skipped for supreme, which wouldnt make sense either. Tough one this.

    3. Putting out lights is not allowed for supreme, period. Ok for regular ghost though.

    4. If the item cant be put back, you are not busting supreme. If it turns unfrobable for example. It would be ok to take loot even if it means moving something that cant be reset.

    Perhaps someone else who has played more dark mod than me could chime in as well. :-)

  5. #105
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    I would like to talk about rule #7 of supreme ghost:

    7. Put Everything back that can be put back: doors closed and re-locked if they are re-lockable, chests and gates closed if closable; keys returned, books/scrolls/letters returned to their original place. If items are picked off a patrolling AI, drop them back on the original patrol route or at their feet if they are a stationary AI. If the item was acquired from a niche or other similar place you canít get it back into, drop the item on the floor below it or the nearest logical place. You cannot stack boxes to gain access to an area when your stack is on the patrol path of an AI. If it can be done in a shadowed area off a patrol path or even in direct light where no one is patrolling, that is fine. But all boxes used must be put back in their original location.

    Specifically about bolded part. From this I understand that I can't leave crates in the place visible by the enemy. But it doesn't really make sense. First - enemy never alert to it. Second - there is no problem with leaving rope arrow and open doors in visible for enemies areas. You just need to grab rope arrow and close doors in the end. So my question is: Why crates are exception?

  6. #106
    New Member
    Registered: Nov 2019
    Location: Sweden
    Quote Originally Posted by klatremus View Post
    Great questions!

    1. Neutral guards or the likes (servants, civilians, etc) usually do not count as busts, unless they see you use a weapon and clearly turn hostile. Allies that you are meeting certainly would not be a bust.

    2. Guards alerting to loot normally would bust supreme. However, this is fairly illogical as the loot being gone would necessarily be noticed sooner or later anyhow. If most of the loot in dark mod would be noticed as gone then it would all have to be skipped for supreme, which wouldnt make sense either. Tough one this.

    3. Putting out lights is not allowed for supreme, period. Ok for regular ghost though.

    4. If the item cant be put back, you are not busting supreme. If it turns unfrobable for example. It would be ok to take loot even if it means moving something that cant be reset.

    Perhaps someone else who has played more dark mod than me could chime in as well. :-)
    Thanks! Seeing as your YouTube channel is my inspiration for starting with supreme in the first place, I will gladly defer to your judgement.

    1. OK, good to know. Sometimes neutral AI will react to the player's weapon with a "Hey, watch out with that thing" or "Put that away before you hurt someone" or similar. I will treat that as a bust, but a regular courtesy greeting is not.

    2. As far as guards noticing missing loot in the Dark Mod, I can tell you as a mission author that it is an active choice that the mapper has to make on a per loot item basis. It's normally a percent chance to notice while it is within their field of view. They do not react more easily if the item is stolen while they are seeing the item either. Your case for it not being a bust is strong, logically they would notice at some point anyway. You don't just have all the valuables taken from your house etc and carry on like nothing happened.
    Doors have a binary argument "should be closed" which means the AI will always notice if the door is open when they walk by, and go into hunt mode. If the door is picked open but not left ajar they will not react. I feel like that could be a bust, or at least breaking with the spirit of supreme. I.E. The guards know someone is skulking around.
    Another difference to Thief is that AI always react to getting pick-pocketed in TDM. They will stop their patrol for a few seconds, reach for their belt and utter a phrase (for example "Oh, where did it go?" or "Did I drop it?"). This one I also feel is not a bust since the AI don't really get suspicious, they just notice it's gone.

    3. Upon reading the rules about lights again, it is quite clear. I think it's fair to call it a bust as it's supposed to add a significant challenge over regular ghost mode.

    4. Ok, that makes sense. I guess it's the same principle as with items that go in to your inventory but can't be dropped again (which is quite common in TDM). I too feel like loot is higher priority than returning every item to it's original spot.

    Awesome, well I think I am almost ready to start doing some supreme ghost reports now. I was planning on recording them with commentary on YouTube as well. I will be adding a little script that gives a pop-up message if an AI was alerted, because you sometimes get alerts from far away that you can't hear, and then you get a nasty surprise in your stealth score after the mission ends as your first and only indication. Hopefully this is allowed, looking back at what Psych0sis was suggesting on the previous page of this thread.

  7. #107
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    I have a question about grabbing plans through painting in Thief 2 Demo and Life of the Party. Is grabbing this plans through painting in Karras Office shouldn't be considered a supreme bust? My problem with this painting is it doesn't behave as a normal painting, but more like safe door. In other words frobbing painting gives sound of something being locked. And painting is operated by the switch nearby pretty much like for example safe with diamonds in Bank in the same mission. Or every other secret stash in the game. That's why I think this painting should be considered as a door rather than decorative object hanging on wall.

    And that means grabbing scroll though painting should be considered engine exploit. Because let's be honest - you aren't grabbing scroll through painting, but through wall very close to the painting. That's why it should be a supreme bust.

    What do you think?

  8. #108
    Master Builder 2018
    Registered: Jul 2008
    Yes, I would say that breaks the rules for Supreme which does not allow any engine exploits. Even if you think of it as a painting, if it's on hinges then it's not as if you could just move it aside.

  9. #109
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    Another point of discussion has recently surfaced, so I'm opening up this beloved thread again...

    It regards Supreme rule #8: No turning off of watchers, or other security systems.

    Simply put: Does this rule also refer to the disabling of traps, especially traps that are protecting objects of value (loot/objectives). Galaer just ghosted The Varyx Obelisk, which I haven't played, and apparently had to disable 2 traps there, and counted them as busts. This naturally refers to the "other security systems" part of the rule, which is the vague part. What is meant by these three words? I have always thought of them as referring to other mechanical/electrical systems (aka watchers) that trigger an alarm of sorts, in order to alert people to your presence. If it was supposed to include traps, then why doesn't the rule simply say so? Traps are after all a very common part of Thief. Also, traps are already mentioned in other rules, why not here, if it applies? Secondly, to me it seems very unfair to have one rule (#9) which flat out disallows triggering traps, but then also have another rule that flat out disallows disabling them! Then there are many missions that at the outset wouldn't be possible to Supreme simply due to a combination of rules. I know this is a situation the player will find himself in at other times also, but here it seems like the rules themselves are trying to trap you (no pun intended).

    One might on the other hand argue, "Well, isn't it the same with alarms systems? You aren't allowed to disable them, yet setting them off also busts you?" Well, hang on a second. Disabling the alarm is disallowed yes, but tripping the alarm is not by itself a bust. If tripping a watcher (which counts as an AI), it usually sets off a bomb shooter, so that would be considered a trap and bust you, even for regular ghost. If you trip an alarm however, then it is second alerting the guards in the building that ultimately busts you, not the sound of the alarm itself.

    An example that backs up my line of reasoning is the "seals" that sometimes protect objects of value, such as the Talisman in Undercover. When you read the Prayer of the Wallbuilder, the seal disappears and the "trap" of taking damage when you try to frob it is removed. That would also be removing a security system, but it has always been accepted for Supreme, and never even mentioned in the ghosting discussion for that mission. A similar example arose in Rose Garden where there is a similar seal around the cursed gemstone at Haskell's that has to be removed with a holy water arrow. Practically identical to Undercover.

    I think a discussion is here warranted, and a clarification of Supreme Rule #8. I'm not looking for an amendment, simply a specification of a fairly vague term that has been overlooked for a long time. Quite frankly, this is the only rule I have been unsure of for the past 4-5 years. All the other ones are pretty clear to me. Not this one.

    I would appreciate players' input and interpretation of this. Naturally, ghosters are welcome to join in (Galaer, Tannar, marbleman, etc), but anyone's input is here valuable. I'm more looking to discuss the spirit of that rule, rather than the literal interpretation of the words. What was the rule originally meant to cover? Was it only watchers and alarm systems? Or was it anything that could imaginably be called a protective device for something else? I imagine the answer lies somewhere in between.
    Klatremus' Supreme Thief Site - Walkthroughs, Loot Lists & Ghost Reports
    Let's Supreme Ghost Thief - YouTube Channel with Thief Let's Plays

  10. #110
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2004
    Location: Heidelberg
    Well, when taking the rule too literally, a lock is also a security mechanism, so any lockpicking should be a bust!!

    My humbe opinion: "Was it only watchers and alarm systems?" -> Yes. It's about the technological means to alert others to Garrett's presence.

  11. #111
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2016
    Just to clarify: is disabling traps allowed for Supreme? I just checked the rules, and it seems to be the case. Never crossed my mind though.

  12. #112
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    Quote Originally Posted by klatremus View Post
    Does this rule also refer to the disabling of traps, especially traps that are protecting objects of value (loot/objectives). Galaer just ghosted The Varyx Obelisk, which I haven't played, and apparently had to disable 2 traps there, and counted them as busts.
    First of all I didn't really supreme ghosted this mission, I just did regular ghost. But I always thought that disabling traps counts the same as disabling watchers and turrets. Also have in mind that usually you can only avoid activating traps, very rarely author gives player ability to disable them.

    Quote Originally Posted by klatremus View Post
    If you trip an alarm however, then it is second alerting the guards in the building that ultimately busts you, not the sound of the alarm itself.
    It varies between mission, because sometimes there is objective to not trigger any alarms. But if there is none of that, then enemy AI alerts not to the trigger of alarm, but to alarm sound. For example recall my Mystic Estate report. Entering Library trigger alarm (it's alarm based on in what area you are). This alarm appear only in 1st half of Library, so guard on the other side of Library may not hear it immediately. By doing failed mantle on door I can turn off alarm (not permanently though, reentering Library will trigger alarm again). But alarm is for small enough time that it doesn't alert any guard.

    Quote Originally Posted by klatremus View Post
    An example that backs up my line of reasoning is the "seals" that sometimes protect objects of value, such as the Talisman in Undercover. When you read the Prayer of the Wallbuilder, the seal disappears and the "trap" of taking damage when you try to frob it is removed. That would also be removing a security system, but it has always been accepted for Supreme, and never even mentioned in the ghosting discussion for that mission.
    To be honest I always thought about removing this seal as solving a puzzle. And solving puzzles is excused in Supreme Ghost. In Undercover you remove this barrier by... reading. I don't recall any security measure that can be disabled in that way. That's why it never occurred to me it's disabling security. If I would classify this seal as other than a puzzle, it would be opening door that can't be closed later. Also it triggers alarm, which 2nd alert everyone and is ghost bust anyway. Also I believe in older version of Olddark it's possible to get protected Talismans through the seal, so there is no need to remove it and trigger the alarm. I think I saw that on speedruns.

  13. #113
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    3 questions not related to previous discussion:

    1) I just read supreme ghost rules and there is something that confused me. Long time ago I watched Travis Whitsitt supreme ghost run of Shipping and Receiving. And I think he mentioned that grabbing rope arrow in this mission is a supreme bust, because rope arrow is unnecessary to finish mission and can't be returned, because it's the arrow. But rules don't forbid grabbing equipment during the mission, they only mention not buying anything in shops. And there is also this rule about returning what can be returned. Rope arrows can't be returned, so it's excused? So is grabbing equipment that can't be returned, but can be used to get optional loot is a supreme bust or not?

    2) And speaking about shopping, what about shops inside missions? In some missions they appear and we can buy or we are even forced to buy some equipment like rope arrow. And sometimes we use our loot for that? Is this shopping a supreme bust?

    3) Also what about flares? They aren't consumables and they can be returned. But some missions use eternal darkness gimmick. Increasing gamma is useless and the only way to see anything is by using some source of light like flares. Otherwise I would be completely blind in these missions. Also can I relight torches. Sure there is rule about not dousing torches, but isn't lighten torch, which wasn't lighten, a visible change? So is using flares that can be returned to see anything in mission, a supreme bust?

  14. #114
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    Quote Originally Posted by marbleman View Post
    Just to clarify: is disabling traps allowed for Supreme? I just checked the rules, and it seems to be the case. Never crossed my mind though.
    There is no rule that says anything about the illegality of disabling traps. The rule in question (#8) is the only one that could disallow it, although my opinion is it doesn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galaer View Post
    1) I just read supreme ghost rules and there is something that confused me. Long time ago I watched Travis Whitsitt supreme ghost run of Shipping and Receiving. And I think he mentioned that grabbing rope arrow in this mission is a supreme bust, because rope arrow is unnecessary to finish mission and can't be returned, because it's the arrow. But rules don't forbid grabbing equipment during the mission, they only mention not buying anything in shops. And there is also this rule about returning what can be returned. Rope arrows can't be returned, so it's excused? So is grabbing equipment that can't be returned, but can be used to get optional loot is a supreme bust or not?
    Supreme rule #13 says: "Keep a clean inventory: don’t pick up what you don’t need and return what is not usable." That means picking up what you know is not needed, or not returning what you don't need is a bust. That's probably what Travis was referring to. The only exception would be if you open a chest not knowing what's in it, if you get arrow you can't return them. Then it wouldn't be required to reload far back just to avoid the pickup. However, I always quicksave before opening a chest, so that I can reload if it is not loot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galaer View Post
    2) And speaking about shopping, what about shops inside missions? In some missions they appear and we can buy or we are even forced to buy some equipment like rope arrow. And sometimes we use our loot for that? Is this shopping a supreme bust?
    No, only the shop at the loadout screen is disallowed. In-game shops you can use, and make sure you are not caught. But of course, if others get alerted as you visit the shop, that is a bust.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galaer View Post
    3) Also what about flares? They aren't consumables and they can be returned. But some missions use eternal darkness gimmick. Increasing gamma is useless and the only way to see anything is by using some source of light like flares. Otherwise I would be completely blind in these missions. Also can I relight torches. Sure there is rule about not dousing torches, but isn't lighten torch, which wasn't lighten, a visible change? So is using flares that can be returned to see anything in mission, a supreme bust?
    The rules don't say anything about creating light sources, only removing them. But if you light a torch, there should be a very good reason for it, plus you should remove the light later due to rule #7. Flare I guess are ok to use, again if it is really necessary. If they are returned, can they be picked up and reused? I wouldn't think so. In that case, I would almost just carry them with you. Not sure about that one, as I have never used flares for Supreme.

  15. #115
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    I am right now ghosting Eternal Candle and I have 2 questions:

    1. After freeing a Athropos from Prison, she's running back to her house. If she gets there safe, then I will get bonus objective completed. But I don't think it's possible during ghosting. She's alerting every guard and gets killed. It makes friendly haunt to spawn, but he dies very soon too. Should I consider her alerting everyone a ghost bust?

    2. After dousing eternal candle, earthquake happens and 2nd alert guards. Should I consider this a ghost bust?

  16. #116
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2016
    Well, if it is in the spirit of Supreme to leave everything the way it is, I would disallow disarming traps.

  17. #117
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    Quote Originally Posted by marbleman View Post
    Well, if it is in the spirit of Supreme to leave everything the way it is, I would disallow disarming traps.
    I somewhat agree with you. However, I'd rather say the spirit of Supreme is reversing everything to the way it was. Otherwise, you are not allowed to do anything at all without busting. For example, you are allowed to take equipment if you need it, as long as you return what is returnable. You are allowed to unlock doors as long as you relock them. However, gates that are opened that can't be reclosed are allowed, items that stick to your inventory are allowed, items that can't be returned to the exact location can be dropped in the nearest logical place. So why then shouldn't disarming traps be allowed if it means not springing the trap which is a bust? If you can rearm the trap, that would naturally be required for Supreme, but if it can't, well then isn't it the same as not reclosing a gate because the lever can't be operated again?

    Also, to me the question here isn't whether or not Supreme should allow disarming traps, it is rather whether the original rule #8 meant to include the disarming of traps. To me it didn't.

    I am not looking to amend or add any rules, rather clarify one that is already there.

    I would really like your thought on this line of reasoning, marbleman.

  18. #118
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2016
    Okay, for that particular question I would say no. Traps and security systems are not the same thing even if they have the same purpose, to stop intruders. However, it is then important to differentiate the two. The way I'd do it is by two criteria. Firstly, the player cannot usually see traps beforehand, unlike security systems which have a clear manifestation in watchers, alarm lights, etc. Yes, there are sometimes visible emitters but they are not prominent in most cases, and even spiked walls that the player can see beforehand usually have no clear indication as to what sets them off. Secondly, their purpose is achieved in different ways. Security systems are set up to alert AIs to your presence (alerting guards, activating turrets, etc.) while traps are set up to outright kill you. While a trap, such as a falling boulder, can alert AIs, it is not the real intent behind it.

    All that said, why do we treat security systems and traps differently if they essentially serve the same purpose? Why is turning off security systems not allowed at all why disarming traps is fine? Well, I'll go ahead and answer that using the very point I made. Since a security system is clearly visible, people would notice if it goes down. Nobody would notice a disarmed trap.

    However, I would also argue that re-arming traps should be necessary since everything has to be reversed to the way it was (that's what I meant in my previous post, just worded it in a poor and overly categorical way). I know this opens a can of worms, especially with traps that cannot be re-armed. For example, the crushing statue in Chalice of Souls can be deactivated by pressing the skull. It is clearly a trap, so would it be more appropriate to never disarm it and skip the loot it's guarding? Cannot even answer that myself, but it is a kind of thing that supreme ghosters should give some consideration to.
    Last edited by marbleman; 23rd Apr 2020 at 05:38.

  19. #119
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    I think you and I are in 100% agreement, marbleman. Nothing you said I oppose:

    1) The original rule did not intend to include disarming of traps.

    2) Alarm systems (which I think is a better term to use in the rules than 'security systems') are distinctly different from traps because their disarming would be noticed by human enemies, and are implemented in order to alert other enemies, not to kill Garrett.

    3) Rearming traps is necessary for Supreme, which I think it already is following rule #7. Those that can't be rearmed are excused, just like not closing doors/gates than can't be reclosed or not returning items that stick to the inventory would be excused. I would say that it follows the spirit of Supreme not to disarm such traps unless it leads to objectives or loot. You wouldn't skip the loot for Supreme because you do not bust Supreme in order to get it. You only skip loot that you need to bust Supreme in order to take, or take it and accept the bust. As you know, I do the former.

    A good example would be the trap you mentioned in Chalice of Souls. It leads to loot, but disarming the trap is no bust, even though you can't rearm it. Another good example is the first trap in Unexpected Shelter (T2X mission 1). You have to disarm a spear trap to proceed. The lever can be reset and the trap therefore rearmed, but you can't do that and proceed, so you have to pass the trap and leave it disarmed. This is a Supreme bust, because the trap can be rearmed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galaer View Post
    I am right now ghosting Eternal Candle and I have 2 questions:

    1. After freeing a Athropos from Prison, she's running back to her house. If she gets there safe, then I will get bonus objective completed. But I don't think it's possible during ghosting. She's alerting every guard and gets killed. It makes friendly haunt to spawn, but he dies very soon too. Should I consider her alerting everyone a ghost bust?

    2. After dousing eternal candle, earthquake happens and 2nd alert guards. Should I consider this a ghost bust?
    1. I have not played this mission. Is releasing her an objective? If so, you have to release her and she is the one getting seen/heard, not you. As long as guards don't alert to you, I'd say you're fine. If you don't have to release her, I would say this wouldn't be allowed for Supreme, it is just too messy. But I guess even that is up for interpretation. Difficult one than.

    2. I again assume dousing the candle is an objective. The following earthquake is a scripted response to doing an objective, and that in turn alerts enemies. This one I'd say is ok and no bust. Unless the dousing itself is what alerts the enemies, but that is not what you said happened. It is something outside your control.
    Last edited by klatremus; 24th Apr 2020 at 01:18.

  20. #120
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    The reason that original rules don't mention disarming traps is because they were made for original missions. And in original missions there is no way to disarm traps. Maybe except trapped floor in Masks, but maybe it was classified as security measure.

    Also I believe that disarming traps isn't in the spirit of supreme ghosting (minimal interaction with environment while completing objectives). Disarming traps means like making something easier. Just like turning off watchers, turrets or even lights. That's why I would prefer to add no disarming traps rule into supreme ghost rules. If trap protects loot, then simple skip it. If trap doesn't allow you to progress, then mention it's deactivation as a supreme bust, because there is no shame in failing supreme bust. I'm against giving too much leeway in this mode. It was supposed to be for hardcore ghosters.

    Also what about situation where you can both disarm trap and avoid activating it at the same time. Avoiding trap feels more in the spirit of supreme ghost. But if there will be rule allowing disarming traps, then smart people will just deactivate trap, do their business and afterwards simple rearm the trap. That's too easy.

  21. #121
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2016
    One problem with that amendment is that it will invalidate a bunch of reports made with existing rules in mind.

  22. #122
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    Quote Originally Posted by marbleman View Post
    One problem with that amendment is that it will invalidate a bunch of reports made with existing rules in mind.
    But how many supreme ghost reports is there that involve disarming traps? At most - just few. Disarming traps in FMs is quite rare. I think disarming traps should only be excused if it's part of puzzle or it's connected to objective.

    Another idea would be making this rule work only on future supreme ghost reports. Pretty much like changes in law don't affect past cases, but only future cases.
    Last edited by Galaer; 24th Apr 2020 at 07:54.

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