Ghost rules discussion

[marbleman]

That one is tricky indeed. The rule disallows any indication of AI alerting. Even though it sounds ridiculous, if there is no indication, the player should be good according to the rule. This to me seems like a more extreme case of mute guards who never give first alerts and whose behavior is only possible to judge by their motions. The fact that they never give verbal cues doesn't mean they don't enter first alert state, but since there is no indication, there is no way to measure that.

I have another one. Some areas make Supreme inapplicable due to how loud they are. Think a waterfall or a noisy generator room. Would it be appropriate to lower ambient volume around such areas? And if not, what ambient level is appropriate for this mode? I personally like to play with ambient volume almost maxed out, and I don't change it for my Supreme runs.

[Galaer]

1. I wanted to ask about Chemical rule. I play last mission of Sturmdrang Peak campaign. I get item called Weed of Barathias. It replenish my breath while underwater just like breath potion. It's a plant and chemical rule mentions only potions. I can use it infinite number of times, because it isn't spend. It stays in my inventory. So my question is: Is using it will classify my ghost run as chemical or not?

2. Also in the same mission there are purple barriers that I can destroy with sword. They just vanish after single slash. Behind them is only loot and pages for optional objective. Is destroying these barriers a damage property?

[marbleman]

1. I'd say no since it's a unique quest item. Besides, as you said it's not even a potion but rather a root that Garrett just chews on.

2. Yes. Destroying the barriers obviously means inflicting damage on them.

[Cigam]

1. I'd say no since it's a unique quest item. Besides, as you said it's not even a potion but rather a root that Garrett just chews on.

But it has the effects of assisstance?

I think of the rules as being a codification of some ideas, and it is what crosses those ideas that matters. Not the literal letter of the rules.

So the question I would ask is, IF X was around at the time, would the rule-authors have proscribed it?

Well the whole point of forbidding potions was to forbid the artificial enhancement of player physical abilities. It is not that they were contemptuous of potions in particular, and it was more the colour of the potion bottles that they objected to (well I am assuming, anyway).

So after all that waffling, I would treat the root as I would treat a breath potion. ie it would have come under the same rule, had they been a thing back then. And so not for Ghosts today.

[Cigam]

Just curious about something. I once saw a ghost run of T2 M1, where the player claimed Supreme despite the fact that they left the key that they had pickpocketed near the door of the room and not on the guard within the room's patrol path.

Their justification was that if they went back up the dumb waiter and dropped the key it would alert the patroling guard. And there is no way to sneak up on him via the room's actual door.

I think that is OK since the point of dropping the key on the patrol path is to create less suspicion as it is plausible that the key could have fallen on it's own while the guard was walking. And since this room only has one door, the key could have dropped on his way in.

But then that sets up the precedent of being able to drop the key anywhere where it is logical a guard must have walked, even if away from their current standing spot or patrol path, and people could then skip difficult key-returns.

Wondering what other's think?

[Galaer]

I believe it's excusable to drop key anywhere in the room. In other words you can leave key at the very entrance. But if you are pedant, then you will go after key carried by archer from garden near starting point. In Newdark it's easy - just mantle over gate. In Olddark it's more complicated. You need to bring crates to jump over metal fence, but you can't just put them under fence or gate. It would violate supreme rule #7 - don't put crates, which can be seen by enemies. So you need to put crates in shadow and from there jump over fence. Then pickpocket archer and also return all crates. Loot 3rd floor, block lock garden gate, return key and close gate. That's a lot of work if you want to be really perfect.

[Galaer]

So after all that waffling, I would treat the root as I would treat a breath potion. ie it would have come under the same rule, had they been a thing back then. And so not for Ghosts today.

I understand your point, but I decided to go with marbleman interpretation of the rule. With custom item giving potions effects it's really tricky. For example there is invisibility cape in Bathory Campaign. It works just like invisibility potion and it doesn't vanish from inventory, but I can't imagine Garrett chewing cape whenever he wants to use it.

[Galaer]

I have a question about Shipping and Receiving mission. Shouldn't grabbing rope arrow in this mission considered as supreme bust? In rules it states to not grab anything that is unnecessary. And rope arrow isn't necessary to complete this mission. It's just for some extra loot. But there is alternative for rope arrow - crates. There is a lot of crates in this mission. Of course stacking crates to get very high is tedious, but that's the point of supreme ghost. To challenge player. And rope arrows can't be returned too, while crates can. What do you think?

[marbleman]

I think it's fine. The way I intepret a "necessary pickup" is "something I will use." In other words, it would be an unnecessary pickup if you never used that rope arrow, but otherwise it's fine.

By the way, I have a question myself: assuming I pickpocket a key off a guard who later dies - should I return it to his corpse, or is it still fine to drop it anywhere along his patrol path?

[Galaer]

I don't think there is any difference in what will you do. Unless said key is mentioned in readable belonging to invaders.

[klatremus]

Galaer: Any item used to complete objectives or take loot is ok. Stacking crates is an alternative, but I don't think anyone would call it a bust taking a rope arrow instead. It's also a matter of what a supreme thief would do. Would he linger for an extra hour stacking crates, or just take the arrow? Probably the latter. It doesn't leave evidence of presence besides the missing arrow. I wish they could've been returned though.

Marbleman: Anywhere the enemy has been during the course of the mission is ok.

[Galaer]

Um, fortuni released lootlists for all entries of Thief 1 Anniversary Contest. You can find it here.

[klatremus]

Yes, but when ghosting you're not allowed to use walkthroughs or loot lists, so I avoid them as long as possible. That's why I usually check here and ask for hints instead, after making my own list.

[Galaer]

There is really a rule like that? Why? While I don't care about lootlists, sometimes finishing mission or finding all secrets can be very hard without walkthrough. And I want to find all secrets that I missed when playing mission casually. So I don't see any problem with using walkthroughs. Never heard about this rule, but I find it really stupid.

[klatremus]

Rule #9 of the main ghost rules here.

Anyway, the piece I missed is definitely not a purse from a belt, as I found all pickpockets.

[Galaer]

Hey there, I just got info about a very weird rule in ghosting I had no idea about. I'm talking about Rule #9 talking about not using lootlists and walkthroughs. I don't think this rule is needed, because it has nothing to do with actual ghosting, but rather it involves test runs, which most of the time are just casual gameplay. Plus some missions has some really obscure solutions that it's very hard to figure out on your own. Not mentioning some key items hidden in very hard to find places. This rule just makes test runs to go forever, make them unbelievably stressful and frustrating and this stress has nothing to do with stress during actual ghost runs.

I think it would be good to revoke this rule or just make it optional. What do you think?

[Galaer]

Rule #9 of the main ghost rules here.

So that means that you asking for help is a ghost bust and you are gonna include it in your report?

[klatremus]

Asking for hints on the forums is not a bust Galaer. The rule says "walkthrough or loot cheat" which is generally accepted to mean a loot list (except if you made it yourself). That's why in my first post I specified giving me a loose hint on where the item I missed could be, for example the building it's in, or general area of the map.

Whenever I've used walkthrough before I've included it in the report, for example Ruins of Originia I used one 3 times to get through first mission.

The rule also says it's on the honor system, so it's a bit up to each player how they use it. But no walkthroughs and loot lists are pretty clear.

[Galaer]

Asking for hints on the forums is not a bust Galaer.

But you will get your answer from someone else looking at the lootlist. So in the end you are using lootlist, but indirectly.

Edit: I checked lootlist for you and looks like you are missing something from Thorin Floodgates.

[klatremus]

The point of the rule is to avoid direct spoilers, so when visiting the forum, I ask for loose hints in order to avoid that. I can't control what other people have used in providing the hint, but as long as I'm not directly using someone else's loot list or walkthrough, I'm not breaking any rule.

Thanks for the hint Galaer! I will check it out later today.

[Galaer]

The point of the rule is to avoid direct spoilers, so when visiting the forum, I ask for loose hints in order to avoid that. I can't control what other people have used in providing the hint, but as long as I'm not directly using someone else's loot list or walkthrough, I'm not breaking any rule.

How else you expected people to help you. If you need one certain loot and you provide your lootlist, then it's obvious someone else will check lootlist. I find your excuse to be farfetched. You know very well what's needed to get an answer, but it's OK if someone else will give an answer. And that's idiotic. You are just lying to yourself. But you know what's more idiotic - this rule has nothing to do with ghosting. It's just for your inner satisfaction. But that's an achievement for the most patient and clever.

That being said, I think it should be you checking this lootlist. I have wasted 15 min for checking both lootlists and if you don't want too many spoilers you can always cover columns showing more specific placement of loot with your hand or something also and if you have no idea where is loot gradually uncover starting from left column. So yeah, instead of waiting for someone else do your job, you should do this job yourself.

[klatremus]

I can tell you feel very strongly about this Galaer. No need to get worked up. I disagree with you on both points. I wasn't giving an excuse, I was simply saying I was seeking a loose hint rather than a direct spoiler, which the rule was meant for. The original creators probably didn't want players following a step by step walkthrough and loot list, completing the entire mission this way, and then claiming a successful ghost. I'm sure that once you finish the mission on your own, using a list the way you suggested, by covering up sections and using categories/locations instead of direct spoilers to find remaining loot/secrets is ok. I myself have done this before, and had no issues about it. I'm fully aware that your hint (or anybody's hint) would use fortuni's or my loot list, and pass on that information to me. I wasn't trying to say otherwise. When I made the first post I wasn't even aware there was a loot list for this mission, so I obviously had no intention of others using it. I was mainly referring to the creator(s)/testers to check my list if they easily could spot some well-hidden loot I missed. If you choose to spend 15 minutes doing that of course I am grateful, but it is ultimately your choice, nobody is forcing your hand. This entire forum is on a volunteer basis anyway. When I know there is a list of course I could check it, but then I would risk getting a direct spoiler and that would first remove the fun of finding it by searching, and second go against the spirit of the ghost rules. That is the main reason any player would ask for a hint to complete anything on the forum. Most missions have walkthroughs that the player could use, but many feel that violates their desires way of playing, and would rather want lighter hints on how to proceed.

I very much disagree with the rule having nothing to do with ghosting. The rule set for both Ghost and Supreme tries to replicate rules that an actual master thief would have and how he would carry himself. No proper thief would ever have access to a manual on how to complete a mission or where to find the loot. So again, the creators of the mode wanted players to complete the mission on their own, if claiming a successful ghost run.

[downwinder]

^ then asking for any kind of hint is a bust
as a true master thief would not be able to ask for a piece of loot /loose hint,as if another thief was there ,they would have took the loot :P

dewdrop approved this message

#1 rule of life i learned is being smarter then others ,makes people hate you

raindrop approved this message

#2 rule of life is people will double down on what they say to make it seem more correct even if they wrong

downwinder approved this message

that is why i don't ghost/supreme ,everyone has different view points on how rules are read/understood

where is zylon bane :P ,yes being sarcastic before 2020 is over


i hope you all have a happy holiday and happy new year

[klatremus]

I was only saying the reason the rule is there is to make it more realistic. Of course asking for hints on the forum isn't realistic, but that doesn't break ghost was my point. Totally agree with differences in interpretations about the rules, that's why there's a discussion thread and such controversy around it (which I kind of think is fun).

Found the last piece of loot btw. It was indeed a ring, and probably the most well-hidden of them all. Not feeling too bad I missed that one first time around.

[Galaer]

My problem with this rule is that it enters preferences of casual playing. This rule enforce how to play the missions and I'm not that young anymore to search every pixel of the mission for many hours. I don't like it, because it kinda enforce like also mentioning that you need to p[lay with max ambient sound or with fog just because it brings atmosphere. Something that can easily prevent hearing a bust. I prefer to disable it, because it's easier to hear alerts, but also some sounds can hurt my ears (like wind). As for fog - enemies can see through it, so they have unfair advantage and also for me missions look worse. Are you gonna enforce specific settings for me? Because it will be totally not fun. That's why this rule - searching for many hours for solution just isn't fun for me and ghosting should be fun hard challenge.

As for what downwinder said, I agree with that, authors of these rules probably wanted to make reports without anyone help. So not only using lootlist or walkthrough, but also asking for help is a bust. Though not realistic, because I can imagine someone living in City making walkthroughs and lootlists for other people. Garrett probably bought it or stole it from local fortune teller, so he could use it.

And what about situation I beat mission using walkthrough 10+years ago, but mission was memorable enough that I didn't need to use walkthrough when I started making ghost reports. But upon reading rules more carefully I notice that this rule has actually another flaw - it mentions to not do that during ghost mode, not before ghosting.