Using realism as a reason for anything a bit of a slippery slope. Next thing we'd come to is that one can claim Ghost success only on the first playthrough because realistically, a Thief would not get a second chance. Realism should not inform the ghosting rules.
A good point about loud ambient and fogging. I actually brought that up in the rules discussion thread a while ago, but it went unanswered:
I have another one. Some areas make Supreme inapplicable due to how loud they are. Think a waterfall or a noisy generator room. Would it be appropriate to lower ambient volume around such areas? And if not, what ambient level is appropriate for this mode? I personally like to play with ambient volume almost maxed out, and I don't change it for my Supreme runs.
I wasn't aware of this lootlist rule for ghosting, and find it a bit contradictory with asking for clues on forums, but it's none of my concern, you do you.
Did you manage to supreme ghost the mission ? Nowadays I try to be fair with AIs and patrols, but I don't really take ghosting into consideration while designing a map.
I have moved the ghosting discussion from DrK's FM thread to this thread for further discussion. I know ghosting debates can get heated, so please keep it civil.
I think Galaer's original query got lost in Yandros' transition from the fan mission thread. He was inquiring about ghost rule #9 where it says the player is not allowed to use loot cheats/lists or walkthroughs. He wasn't aware of that rule and does not agree with it. He wanted it removed, or made optional, mainly because it doesn't have anything to do with ghosting. Please correct me if I didn't paraphrase that correctly, Galaer.
Personally, I don't see a reason to remove one of the core rules now, 20 years after its creation. I find it strange you didn't know about the rule, seeing that you have been writing reports for the last 1.5 years. It's not like it's very hidden. The rule does not say getting hints from the forum or other players is wrong. I even remember the original ghosting community back in the early 2000s discussing this being ok, so it was clearly not the intent with the rule to prohibit the player from getting any help whatsoever from the community. So using anything besides a straight up walkthrough or loot list I'd say would be up to each player's conscience, what he or she is comfortable with. Making the rule optional to me is pointless, then you might as well remove it. I don't think the relevancy to ghosting is a good argument due to 1) if you think of the realism aspect it is very illogical for a master thief to know what to do ahead of time, and 2) there are other rules that also aren't directly relevant to ghosting then, for example engine exploitations, or playing on highest difficulty. They are included to increase difficulty, and so is no walkthroughs/loot lists.
Marbleman: there are no references in the rules to ambience volume, fog, weather or other environmental/sounds settings, so this would be up to each player. You certainly wouldn't bust. However, if the in game sounds are preventing you from being able to detect alerts, I would certainly mention it in the report, and possibly even render supreme impossible to give a verdict (which I have done in the past with for example T2X mission 13).
Would love to hear other ghosters' input here
Even if I am not particularily fond of this rule #9, I respect it - that's why I posted here a grand total of two reports (one being for a tiny kids level, and the other one quite vague and rushed - and in retrospect I wish I hadn't posted it).
Mixed feelings.
I see where galaer is coming from, I too have only so much patience. I don't do any blackjack runs at all (bad habit from the times when my very young kids watched me playing, and I did not want to teach them violence, they had school for that - and perhaps I'm "realistic" in the way marbeman mentioned it above), so at some point searching _while_ ghosting loses its fun. When the mission isn't good, I simply abandon it. If it's got potential, then I "cheat" to get by (or to find all loot).
On the other hand, I too understood the intention behind the rule, to prevent mechanical reproduction of someone else's walkthrough followed by "claiming ghost", which is supposed to be some sort of special achievement.
What I'm trying to say: one can still ghost (even with spoilers), and the challenge is still there, quite rewarding. As klatremus said, include in the report the places/pieces of loot that required outright spoilers and that's it. No need to scrap the rule.
Yes, I meant rule #9. For me it's controversial rule, because it mentions how to make test runs. And how I do that is my preference. I don't want to be forced to play in the way I don't enjoy. The thrill for me when ghosting is making strategies how to avoid alerts, damage property and any other damage. I don't want to be forced to search for these last loot pieces just because author made super tight loot objective or tiny switch that I somehow overlooked or key that blend into wall or floor or script didn't work and I have no idea about that. Thanks to walkthrough I have chance to move on. You talk about realism, but just like marbleman mentioned before doing test runs isn't realistic at all. In other words, realistic would be doing ghost runs on your 1st playthrough. But hey, this is just video game. And this challenge was made for fun.
Also you didn't answer my question about situation where I used walkthroughs during my casual runs many years before I had any thought about making ghost reports. This means that thanks to memory about me using walkthroughs in the past, I could beat missions without using walkthrough once again. What about this situation? Is it bust for you or not?
But to be honest, I don't care too much. Even if others will say it should be a ghost bust, I'm not gonna respect this rule, because it's not fun for me and like I mentioned it has nothing to do with actual ghosting. I'm still gonna make ghost reports even if you don't like my stand. It doesn't mean that I'm gonna start my test run by reading walkthrough and lootlist. It's only very last resort for beating mission... and getting all secrets (because I'm curious about them). When I get 100% loot, then usually I'm surprised that I did it on my own. I never learned what's so amazing about getting all loot though. Don't expect me getting all loot except situations when it's forced by loot objective. But then I will not claim Perfect Thief, but rather call it "forced".
I think much better would be rule about not lying about ghost reports. You may be surprised by this rule, because what's the point claiming successful ghost even if it's impossible. Well, the same thing you can say about speedrunning and world records. There is no point in cheating speedruns and yet there are people who cheat. For fame. I don't think it ever happened here, but who knows, maybe someday in the future will happen. Not lying about ghost reports (actual ghost runs, not test runs) is my point of honor.
i got a great idea,when the new contest missions come out ,all the ghoster people do each mission blind and dont check boards until you done,then you all can come compare your reports to see how they look and maybe there will be more then one way to ghost missions,would be a great way to baseline your ghost/supreme run,so in january i will check to see the results ,as there should be some variation to each ghost run in some parts* as long as mission is not super linear,good luck to all the ghosters,if you dont get all loot/and alerts/etc its not perfect,also saving and reloading can effect outcome of a.i. so if possible make run no save's/reloads to get realness to run,of course if you get a run with error then a restart would be needed,not a reload from save point
i ofcourse would never attempt a ghost/supreme run as i am the blackjack leave all doors open type to know where i have been ,my goal is get 100% loot/secrets and all objectives/bonus objectives
did i miss anything
my view is based on realism to be a master thief
Well, for contest missions I prefer to do first casual run and then ghost run. In both situations I don't make any notes where loot is located or keys. Just solve mission casually and point how much fun I had. I don't make report missions then too. Also while I have time to play all missions, not everyone is in similar situation like me. So that's the weak point of your idea, downwinder.
I think it would be better for all ghosters' sanity to not take downwinder's suggestions seriously.
I have actually toyed with the idea of getting 3-4 ghosters together, decide on a mission that none of them have played or know anything about, each player ghosts/supremes it individually and release their reports on the same day. It would be cool to see different approaches to the same problems. It would have to be a mission that has some challenge to it. Perhaps a new release by a well known author that would motivate participants to do a proper run.
1/3 liked my idea pretty good odds :P
You know you can just use a loot list/look in dromed and plan a route beforehand, and no one will know.
True, this "rule" can't even be verified by anyone.
Also I remember that when fortuni was building his walkthrough of Patriot, he actually send me PM regarding my post about evidences in one of missions. In other words, mission thread is one of sources for building walkthroughs.
That's why the rule says "a point of honor that cannot be enforced"...
Oh, I read that it was enforced. Besides you mentioned that in your Ruins of Originia report you added because of that a ghost bust. Though on top where your stats are you mentioned only one bust in your opinion.
As for glass bust - I wonder if it wouldn't be possible to go through it by using speedrun technique called Gentle Clip. It allows you to to go through doors and certain walls. It's also easier to do it without new mantle and in Olddark. But I'm really bad with this technique. So I don't use it.
In the mission you mention, it's possible to detect the alerts if you lower the ambient volume since it also reduces waterfall noises. Would you do that, or would you regard this as immersion-breaking and render Supreme non-applicable anyway?Originally Posted by klatremus
@Galaer: I can't remember why I wrote "one bust"in the stats area. It could be because I was claiming only that bust to be necessary for someone else. Or it could be because I had used a walkthrough only to get loose hints, and only for my test run 2-3 years prior. I never intended on ghosting the mission then, but since I used the knowledge I had gained from the walkthrough to completely ghost run later, I included it in my report. I mentioned it in my recording too, so I definitely wanted to report my use of walkthrough.
As for the clip through the glass, I'm not sure it would work bc the floor is ice, which means you can't jump.
@marbleman: I can't remember, but I don't think I reduced anything but the master volume. But if there's a way to reduce ambience in order to detect alerts, I wouldn't have issues with it.
I managed to do this clip twice to get to Lord Bafford's Mansion through wall and from what I noticed you need to kinda mantle into wall. And it's possible to mantle while standing on ice. But I have no idea if it's possible to clip through glass.
Well, it would be really cool if someone could try it. I could provide a save game and then perhaps this one could be ghosted.
Forgive my ignorance, but I thought using engine glitches like that would be disallowed by the rules.
I'm no ghosting expert, but I believe it is stated in the rules that engine glitches are OK, but only as a last resort.
Brethren is correct. For Ghost it is allowed but only as a last resort. For Supreme Ghost it is not allowed under any circumstance. This was the only Ghost bust in this mission, hence the hope of eliminating it. This mission is so difficult that even getting within one bust is quite good.
@klatremus: What's your stance on pushing the wall in Blexham manor in The Sound of a Burrick in a Room? Would you say it's property damage?
@marbleman: Sadly, I would. You are breaking the wall and its irreversible. What do you think? You can get to the caves from the butcher, but only after the door is unlocked, and I think the only copy of the key is on the butcher himself patrolling inside. I don't think you can reach that key from outside, right? I haven't ghosted this, but its next on my list.
Edit: There might be a way to push through the butcher's door or the cave wall with an engine exploit though, but that seems like cheating.
Yeah, I'd say it's a bust. Technically, no damage is being inflicted as pushing that wall is like moving a crate; nothing is being broken per se. But common sense says it's definitely property damage.
I'm currently cooking up a report of this one myself, but it will be a little different from the usual stuff.
Last edited by marbleman; 29th Dec 2020 at 14:02.
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