Cool, looking forward to it!
rule #420 in order to truly ghost/supreme a mission it must be done on a blind run of said mission,as playing after you already played a mission,gives the player an advantage
rule #666 if you have a bust in mission ghost/supreme attempt is void after that point forever
i think those 2 rules should be added,to make it a more realistic attempt :P
Well, you are of course entitled to think whatever you'd like, downwinder.
However...
Rule #0.5: Ignore all downwinder posts in this thread. Seriously.
Rule #420: I find this rule a discriminatory one. This means that certain people can't make any attempts just because they played certain missions before when they didn't know that maybe will try in future to write report. There is also another problem - with human memory. It's possible to forget completely about playing certain missions and not recognize their titles. And after playing few hours you go to this one room and suddenly you got flashbacks. You remember this one room and that's the problem. It's not blind run anymore and you can't report this mission anymore. So I'm against this rule.
Rule #666: this rule is very tempting. Sometimes mission has ghost bust at the very beginning, so you can stop there, because a void and quickly jump to next FM. And let's not forget about campaigns. If mission 1 has ghost bust, then you can't just skip to mission 2, because there is huge void in mission 1. Which means you must declare the whole campaign to be impossible to ghost. Imagine how it would speed up the whole process of writing ghost reports.
Rule #0.5: this is highly discriminatory rule and Dewdrop seriously agree with me.
rule #1337 save while doing a ghost run saving/reloading should not be allowed as we all know reloading a save game can alter a.i. in many ways,giving player advantage
rule #0.6 rule 0.5 will be stricken from the book of rules,approved by the hag
the reason i made rules is i was thinking imagine if someone was able to pull off a supreme with rules i had in place,it would be the most impressive run ever
also i have one question,is it against rules to pick up dewdrop in a ghost/supreme run and finish mission with him? if so all rules need to really be looked at with a fine toothed comb,while sipping my fav year after talking to benny
@marbleman: What is your position on the closing of the tomb door once taking the Right Arm of St. Lucard in Lost Among the Forsaken. Is it a trap, and thus a Supreme bust? I'm unsure, but leaning towards no. I think traps more as those that are trying to inflict pain by shooting, crushing, releasing of gas, etc. Plus, it's a direct consequence of taking an objective, and thus completely unavoidable. It's comparable to taking the talisman in undercover and setting off the alarm. There is no scenario where the door won't close, because it is a script directly tied to obtaining the objective, not by stepping on a pressure plate, tripping a wire, or getting spotted by a sensor. What do you think?
Of course, anyone else can chime in as well.
Regarding downwinder's hypothetical rules: Ghosting is not supposed to add some sense of ultra-realism to the gameplay, but rather to give players an optional challenge that's difficult but still fun. Making mistakes is inevitable, especially on a blind playthrough, so attempting a Ghost run on a mission you've never played before is certainly even more difficult. However, forcing yourself to abandon the Ghost run forever because of one mistake is not only zero fun, it ultimately ruins the point of playing the Ghost style entirely.
And since this isn't the first time downwinder proposed a "no saves or reloads" rule in this thread (see page 1), I'll just refer back to the response I gave him last time:
Regarding Dewdrop: in a regular Ghost run, I think picking up Dewdrop, if only for sentimental reasons, should be fine. Supreme Ghost, however, forbids unnecessary item pickups. The only pickups allowed in Supreme are loot, objective requirements, or other items you intend to use (such as keys or rope arrows, and even these need to be returned if possible). Because Dewdrop's only function was to blind the Mechanists in "Trail of Blood" (and I'm pretty sure this function isn't included in most FMs with Dewdrop, if any), the only way a Supreme Ghoster could take Dewdrop is if an objective said so (e.g. "Escape Hammer Hill") or if Dewdrop was treated as a loot item (e.g. "United Bank of Auldale").Originally Posted by Grandmauden
Rule #1337: this could be interesting challenge. Optional challenge. We could make stats how far we can go in the mission without saving/loading or maybe even including blind run. These would be extreme challenges, that's why they would be optional. You mentioned reloading save game can alter AI route. Well, sometimes AI walks in circles or get blocks on certain obstacle like wall. Saving/loading then will most of the time fix AI route.
Rule #0.6: this is interesting, because you approve existence of rule 0.5.
As for Last Among Forsaken: if Right Arm of St. Lucard isn't placed on pressure plate, then it looks like closing tomb after taking it is a script. And scripts aren't any bust.
As for The Sound of a Burrick in a Room. Don't remember this situation, but if you could push wall, then could you push it back. Also if you managed to push wall, then shouldn't it mean that it was broken in the first place, because normally you can't push walls away.
@klatremus: Overall, it looks like a trap. If I recall correctly, you die if you can't make it out of the room. That said, we could separate the door closing from the damage inflicted on you if you don't make it. The door is just a door; the actual trap activates once the door is closed.
I also can't help but compare this to a situation in Heart and Soul, where I claimed Supreme success. In that mission, there is also a door, which can open underneath you and result in death. But the real danger there are the spikes beneath, not the door itself.
@marbleman: The combination of it being linked with the main objective, plus the fact that it is only a door (one that I even spent time getting open), I wouldn't say it busts Supreme. Rereading your situation and my response from Heart and Soul reaffirms this point. It's an intended and unavoidable progression of the mission. Furthermore, I always thought traps would bust Supreme because it left evidence, as in the trap mechanism being sprung. Well, since the only thing happening is the door shutting, I don't think that applies here either. And like I said previously, closing the door technically is required for Supreme too.
@Galaer: There's no pressure plate or tripwire, no. It's definitely scripted. In Sound of a Burrick, there's a wall that is put together, but you can push it and several of the bricks collapses into the cave beyond. Each brick can't be picked up individually afterwards, no there's no way to put it back together.
Nah, they aren't individual bricks. The wall is one big chunk, but you can't pick it up.
I stand corrected.
Marbleman, I mentioned that in videos thread, but check posts #62-65 in this thread.
That's what I meant earlier as well when I said that no damage is technically being inflicted. Maybe klatremus can solidify this once he gets to this mission.
How about classifying this wall as a door than can't be closed, because it becomes unfrobbable? Because this wall kinda perform this function.
Ok I read the referenced posts, and have a few comments:
1 Why would these be supreme busts but not ghost busts? Property damage is part of the ghost rules and should thus apply equally to both.
2. I actually think items being removed is more proof of property damage than items just changing state. I'm not referring to any particular scenario or mission when saying that, it's just a feeling I've got.
3. What we've also yet to talk about here is what is "property" and not. Boulders aren't someone's property if they're just blocking progress in a cave for example. This was the case in the mines in Ruins of Originia where I used a fire arrow to blow up boulders blocking the path (see 10 minutes into Part 3).
I do sort of agree with the wall in Sound of a Burrick working like an uncloseable door, especially if it comes out in one piece. But then again you have damaged the integrity of the door/wall. I don't think the use of weapons necessarily is a requirement of property damage. You can break a crate by throwing it against a wall without using weapons, but that is still clear property damage.
After this conversation (posts #62-65) I was excusing frobbing rocks and other obstacles that vanish and using items to make said obstacles to disappear. There is at least 100 ghost reports, by the way. As for my explanation of this, I think frobbing obstacles can be classified as opening door that can't be closed later. Using items on obstacles to make them vanish can be classified as using key to open locked door and then this door can't be later closed.
As for why in supreme ghost it's not excusable - supreme ghost is much harder mode than ghost. You must leave mission as it was, so very little interaction is necessary and only objectives can excuse some interactions. You also aren't allowed to use exploits and to be honest this kind of explanation feels a bit as using exploit.
As for your description of damage property - I agree with throwing crates, because you actually use force. In Olddark you can kill haunts by throwing hammers into them. But your excuse of blowing up rocks is wrong. And I will tell you why. It's the same reason why breaking icicles at the end of Trail of Blood is damage property. Do these icicles belong to anybody? Like apes or treebeasts? No, it's work of Mother Nature. And still it's a ghost bust, because you destroy it with weapon. So I think destroying nobodies boulders should still count as a ghost bust. Who knows, maybe Gentle Clip would let you pass through it.
I watched video of Ruins of Originia and it's a hard to see barickade, but did you destroy the boulder or did you just move it with your fire arrow? Also I'm surprised you just assumed that burricks can't hear explosion. What if this one time burricks were close enough and they heard the explosion?
Last edited by Galaer; 31st Dec 2020 at 16:34.
Aha, now I understand. You are distinguishing between the frobbing of objects that make them appear/disappear/change, vs damaging something by force (throwing) or using weapons. That is a totally logical and measurable way to separate damage from simply using the item. In that case, I would agree the wall in Sound of a Burrick is not a bust, because iirc you just "use" the wall, you don't shoot it with fire arrow or use explosive charge. You watched the video Galaer, so tell me if I'm remembering correctly. In this case you are correct in your verdict on the 100+ ghost reports you were talking about. *phew*
As for why it is a Supreme bust and not a ghost bust I disagree with you. You can't just say "supreme ghost is much harder", so therefore it is a bust. The rule is the same for both modes. In fact, property damage isn't mentioned in the Supreme rules, so it just assumes the regular ghost rule since they overlap. Using the wall like in Sound of a Burrick if counted as a "door" can't be reclosed, so then it isn't necessary to reclose for Supreme and not a bust. I am firm that if this isn't a bust for ghost then it isn't for either mode. You are not required to return things that can't be returned, reclose or relock doors that cannot be relocked for Supreme, that is explicitly stated in rule #7.
I also disagree with you on what is "property". There's a reason that word was chosen and not stated as just "item damage". The creators wanted a thief to avoid destroying objects that belonged to enemies, and thus could be detected. Plus it would go against the code of a master thief to destroy what belongs to others, only taking what is valuable to the thief, but not ruining property in the process. The mines had collapsed due to a cave-in, so you had to destroy some rubble pieces in order to get through. When you mention Trial of Blood, if it's an icicle that just happens to hang there because of like you said mother nature, then I don't think that should be a bust either. But if it clearly has been placed there by somebody in order to block the path, then it's different. I don't remember the scenario there exactly. I did reread my report on the mission, but I didn't have any screenshots.
In Ruins of Originia I did break the rocks up into smaller pieces, so that I could pass. The burricks didn't alert. I tested this during my practice run before recording. The nearest burrick is stationary anyway. I tried it 5-6 times and they never alerted.
Edit: I just rewatched Travis Whitsitt's playthrough on Trial of Blood, and it's a tough one. Since they are in the middle of a walkway like that they seem to have been deliberately placed there. I honestly don't think when I stated my verdict that I thought about whether it was property or not. But since this is a pagan area and they are using the forces of the elements to construct their buildings, I probably just assumed this was their doing and you were breaking their way of blocking the path.
I still don't like calling it "a door that can't be reclosed."It's more comparable to a crate that can't be returned to its original position. Regardless, if it's allowed, Burrick should be possible to Perfect Thief and probably even Perfect Supreme if the fact that it can't be returned to its original position is excused. Note also that when the servant finds the wall broken, he faints, but this is a scripted event.
To be honest I would prefer rule forbidding using weapons to destroy any obstacle or throwing objects in order to destroy them except when objective mentions to do it. The reason for that is: first - that's the logic I used for my ghost reports and looking at them again would be really tiresome task. Second - I don't want to have this dilemma about whose property are these things blocking my way. Maybe monsters put these rocks or maybe there was an accident. In your RoO video you mentioned that destroying wooden planks would be damage property. But what if person who put these planks is dead? Then wooden planks have no owner. What if owner of these planks abandoned this place? This is forgotten by humankind place after all filled with monsters. And if person abandoned this place, then he also abandoned these planks. What if these icicles were indeed created by Pagans, maybe Victoria made it, so she would know that Garrett approach?
That's the thing, I need simple direction, not discussion about every possibilities.
@marbleman: Since you have ghosted the mission, I'll let you be the judge passing the verdict on the mission for now, but the way we have semi-defined it right now, you are using the wall, not damaging it. However, I would like to quote the Ghost rules' commentary: "Visible damage is when the object is destroyed or appears to be in a different condition than before." Does that change your view? Isn't the wall in a different condition, or would that not even be considered since you haven't actually damaged it?
Perfect Supreme is also a mighty fine challenge to have leading into my ghost run.
@Galaer: Well, I think you are expecting a bit too much from the rules. The rules need to be stated rather simply to be motivating to use, but they can't possible cover all different scenarios. That's why we have a discussion thread like this. The rule we're talking about has two elements:
1) Property - this word is used in order to specify what kind of items the rule is referring to. They are items that are owned by or belong to somebody (whether near or far, alive or dead, man or beast). All the items mentioned in the rule or in the explanations stated after the rule, or in the Supreme rule (I was wrong earlier, as property damage is also mentioned in the Supreme rules), are only referring to objects that are man made and that you would expect to find in a building or on a property of sorts. I do not think this rule at all was meant to also include natural objects that nobody would ever claim to own, like a rock in the middle of the forest, or a fallen log, or a pile of dirt, etc. Then you have the grey area where there are objects like I just mentioned, but that have been placed in a seemingly specific spot to impede travel, or perhaps to hide a treasure or something. In those cases there is no right or wrong answer. You will interpret it in a way that might be agreed or disagreed upon by others. That's why you always should include an explanation in the report on what you decided to do and why you decided to do it. You claim the success or failure, and unless there is a blatant disregard for a clear rule, most of the time other players will accept it. Sure it might spawn a discussion, but so what? That's part of the fun.
2) Damage - this is where I think we have gotten closer to an actual definition. I totally agree with you that physical force should be required here, by way of using weapons or throwing objects together, or perhaps even hopping on top of something from a certain height (like breaking boards at the bottom of a shaft or something). If you are just using something, as in frobbing it, I don't think that is enough to constitute damage. However, the item also should show "visible damage", like breaking a lock so the door opens or a crate breaking, that is even explicitly stated in the rule's interpretation. It further adds: "Items that disappear from inventory or when used do not count as destroyed." So the creators are here specifying inventory items that are consumed as not breaking this rule.
In that case, I say that it's no bust.A part of the wall is being pushed out, but there is no visible damage to it.
Last edited by marbleman; 1st Jan 2021 at 12:00.
klatremus, could you explain to me why there is rule about completing optional objective in supreme rules? Sometimes you are forced to trigger optional objective and trying to complete it leads to supreme bust or even ghost bust. Since you don't agree with simple explanation "supreme ghost is much harder", what is explanation for that rule?
Are you asking what the rule means, or for me to justify it?
The rule means if you trigger an objective to appear in your task list, then it has to be completed for Supreme. Sometimes you can choose to trigger it, like for example reading a scroll, but if you choose not to, then you don't have to do it bc it's not in the list. If you are forced to trigger the optional objective or it's in the list when you start the mission, then you have to do it to claim the success.
As far as justifying it, it's just an added challenge. Supreme is definitely a harder mode, there's no denying that. The creators chose to have optional objective be required to do because a supreme thief would want to be as thorough as possible, I assume.
Edit: I don't agree with all the rules Galaer, but I choose to follow them.
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