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Thread: The Gun Thread About Guns And Gun Related Gunnery

  1. #576
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by Draxil View Post
    You know what, I was out of my depth on this topic. I started researching Steyn's claim that the constabulary are watching Twitter about this sad affair, and saw a link to this, which is, disturbingly, real.


    You people are totally screwed.
    The very first comment:

    Before posted on something in another country you should research the context. This is in Scotland and is targeted at football fans who in Scotland have fiercely divided loyalties to Catholic or Protestant teams. Language in public places can lead to violence between supporters.
    Also, the law has already been removed:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offens...nd%29_Act_2012
    Last edited by Starker; 28th Apr 2018 at 12:58.

  2. #577
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Quote Originally Posted by Starker View Post
    Also, the law has already been removed:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offens...nd%29_Act_2012
    My bad. It was officially repealed. 9 days ago. Only took 7 years! Congrats, Scotland!

    The state did not make this a precedent. There have been other instances like this, and in some cases the courts ruled in the parents' favour. Also, if people want to change this, they would have to change the law, as is done in civilised societies. Killing doctors or judges would not change a thing, other than bringing more grief.
    I'm tired of back and forth and quote games. The UK adopted the UN Convention on the Rights of Children as its guiding document for child welfare. A few relevant articles:
    Article 3

    1. In all actions concerning children, whether undertaken by public or private social welfare institutions, courts of law, administrative authorities or legislative bodies, the best interests of the child shall be a primary consideration.

    2. States Parties undertake to ensure the child such protection and care as is necessary for his or her well-being, taking into account the rights and duties of his or her parents, legal guardians, or other individuals legally responsible for him or her, and, to this end, shall take all appropriate legislative and administrative measures.

    3. States Parties shall ensure that the institutions, services and facilities responsible for the care or protection of children shall conform with the standards established by competent authorities, particularly in the areas of safety, health, in the number and suitability of their staff, as well as competent supervision....

    Article 6

    1. States Parties recognize that every child has the inherent right to life.

    2. States Parties shall ensure to the maximum extent possible the survival and development of the child.
    It doesn't make sense to say that it's in a person's best interest to die. Death is the opposite of having an interest in anything. Even as a means to relieve suffering death isn't a good answer, because you can't appreciate the cessation of suffering if you can't appreciate. It's in the interests of others, perhaps, to end your suffering; they're not doing you any favors, though. The state didn't do Alfie or his parents any favors, and it's rather vile and repulsive to see the likes of yourself so eagerly defending the government apparatus that would so blithely do the same to you or your children. I thought you grew up under totalitarian rule--miss it?

    I wasn't opposed to withdrawing treatment from Alfie Evans. I'm opposed to the State, and not the parents, making that decision. You should be, too.

    Back to guns for a moment:

    As for arms, you are allowed to own them in the UK, and many people do. Gun control doesn't mean that you can't own guns. The stop and search policy is nonsense, though, and the London mayor was wrong in proposing it. But, the US also has (had) similar policies, though. Did you go shoot up the New York law enforcement when they had stop and frisk? And your president is arguing for bringing it back. Will you go assassinate him when he puts it in place again?
    Gun ownership has been made so onerous in the UK that it's practically impossible to own one. Handguns and semiautomatic rifles are banned, and extensive paperwork is necessary to own a common shotgun. I was opposed to stop and frisk when it was in place, but never subject to it as I didn't live in New York. If those idiots want to fritter away their freedom to be secure in their person or carry firearms, in exchange for non-existent security from criminals, that's their business. I'm not sure how it wasn't in violation of the constitution to start with. If we had a legislature and president willing to implement nationwide stop-and-frisk, then yes, by all means (including armed revolt and assassination) overthrow them.


    I appreciate the exchange of views on the Evans situation, even if I have no appreciation for your views. I have four children with a fifth on the way, and the subject is too emotionally close to home. I've had friends whose children would have died far faster in the UK. Some of those children lived for years having undergone incredibly expensive and extraordinary life saving measures. One lived for almost 9 years, to the age of 16, after having a soccer goal fall on his head and suffering a traumatic brain injury. A friend from childhood's daughter was born with only a portion of her heart, and suffered multiple strokes at birth. She underwent multiple cardio-thoracic surgeries, and died at the age of 6 months. She never left the Neonatal Intensive Care Unit. She had a profound impact on the lives of everyone that had the good fortune to meet her, as did her parents' love, loyalty, and strength. I'm certified in pediatric resuscitation, and have participated in (successful) postoperative resuscitation efforts for a 3 year old. The UK courts' decision is abhorrent, in my view, and damning.

    I'm happy to continue discussing gun control, but am done discussing this.

  3. #578
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Quote Originally Posted by Draxil View Post
    It doesn't make sense to say that it's in a person's best interest to die. Death is the opposite of having an interest in anything. Even as a means to relieve suffering death isn't a good answer, because you can't appreciate the cessation of suffering if you can't appreciate. It's in the interests of others, perhaps, to end your suffering; they're not doing you any favors, though. The state didn't do Alfie or his parents any favors, and it's rather vile and repulsive to see the likes of yourself so eagerly defending the government apparatus that would so blithely do the same to you or your children.
    The state didn't do Alfie any favors, no. Didn't exactly do much to hurt him, either. Like I said, he wasn't a person anymore. The components necessary to construct what we philosophically consider a human being were long since gone. His brain consisted only of the parts necessary to keep him breathing, and his heart pumping. All things considered, Alfie was already dead. Had been dead for awhile. We were just keeping his body alive.

    Though on the flipside of things, while I can understand the reasoning behind the laws that kicked this little drama off, there really was no reason for the hospital to deny the parents their one last glimmer of hope. Alfie's brain had degenerated to the point he was no longer capable of any sensation. Putting him on a plane and flying him to Italy would've caused Alife no undue pain or suffering. There was nothing there to experience discomfort.

    I can't work up any emotions other than a general sadness for the plight of the family, and the fate of the poor kid. Any anger I feel are for the people using this tragedy as an excuse to advocate insurance based medical care and guns, cuz fuck it, nothing's sacred these days. Maybe the hospital did put its foot down a little too hard, but in the end, it wasn't a decision driven by a tyrannical need to force its authority on the blinkered masses, so much a decision driven by cold pragmatism. Alfie was gone. There was no coming back. That trip to Italy? It wasn't for Alfie's wellbeing. It was for the parents. Yeah, they probably should've placated them, since everyone was happily volunteering for the extra help, but don't make this into something it's not.

    I thought you grew up under totalitarian rule--miss it?
    It's because of people like you, shit like this, that I see most big L Libertarians less as a group of people making a strong, proud stance for their rights and freedoms, and more as spoiled brats who scream TYRANNY like toddlers throwing toys out of the crib when they don't get their way.

  4. #579
    BANNED
    Registered: Nov 2016
    Location: Trollinus Maximus
    Some of us are even toddler sized
    Anyways best wishes to Alfies parents as they cope with the loss


    RENZ. check you email. Send nudes back
    Last edited by jkcerda; 28th Apr 2018 at 16:32.

  5. #580
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Quote Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
    It's because of people like you, shit like this, that I see most big L Libertarians less as a group of people making a strong, proud stance for their rights and freedoms, and more as spoiled brats who scream TYRANNY like toddlers throwing toys out of the crib when they don't get their way.
    It was a cheap shot. Sorry, Starker.

  6. #581
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    It's interesting that such a weak case study is such a cause. Public health care: Not helping thoroughly-doomed already-brain-dead kids! And that's why we can't have public funds for helping poor children that absolutely do need and would benefit from treatment they cannot afford! Really? Is that the best y'all can do?

  7. #582
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Quote Originally Posted by jkcerda View Post
    Send nudes back
    Where's my 5 bucks?

  8. #583
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrian View Post
    It's interesting that such a weak case study is such a cause. Public health care: Not helping thoroughly-doomed already-brain-dead kids! And that's why we can't have public funds for helping poor children that absolutely do need and would benefit from treatment they cannot afford! Really? Is that the best y'all can do?
    To be clear, I don't see this as a public health care debate. I see it as a government authority debate. If the NHS had said 'we have a limited budget, and all of our experts agree that Alfie is going to have a short life. We're sorry, but we're pulling the plug." that would be one thing. But they then denied his parents their right to seek a second (or third) opinion and seek treatment elsewhere--even when the taxpayer wasn't on the hook for anything. That's what I find disturbing and disgusting. Well, that and the sanctimonious "we are only concerned with the best interests of the child" shtick.

  9. #584
    BANNED
    Registered: Nov 2016
    Location: Trollinus Maximus
    Quote Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
    Where's my 5 bucks?
    PayPal you already
    If you had a gun you could demand payment
    Draxil. Great post

  10. #585
    BANNED
    Registered: Nov 2016
    Location: Trollinus Maximus
    The way it looks.
    Britain celebrates birth of royal and executed son of commoner

  11. #586
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Quote Originally Posted by Draxil View Post
    To be clear, I don't see this as a public health care debate. I see it as a government authority debate. If the NHS had said 'we have a limited budget, and all of our experts agree that Alfie is going to have a short life. We're sorry, but we're pulling the plug." that would be one thing. But they then denied his parents their right to seek a second (or third) opinion and seek treatment elsewhere--even when the taxpayer wasn't on the hook for anything. That's what I find disturbing and disgusting. Well, that and the sanctimonious "we are only concerned with the best interests of the child" shtick.
    And you're grossly misrepresenting the reality of the situation. Pulling the plug on Alfie wasn't due to limited budget, nor did the NHS deny the parents access to a 2nd opinion. The hospital itself sought multiple opinions on the matter from various widespread sources, each one telling them what they already knew: that there's nothing that can be done, and it's only a matter of time before the child dies. The only thing the Italian hospital offered was the potential for a few extra days or weeks of life. All second opinions stated the same thing. There was no promise of a cure. No promise of a more comfortable death. Only a delay of the inevitable.

  12. #587
    BANNED
    Registered: Nov 2016
    Location: Trollinus Maximus
    Read a draxils list again. There is an “”if” there

  13. #588
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Somehow I missed that. Though the rest still applies. The NHS got a 2nd, 3rd, and a 4th opinion, and the only thing seeking treatment elsewhere would've brought were a jaunty fun plane ride, and a few extra days of lingering before death. There was no hope. No one was offering any hope. No one was denied hope. The NHS didn't suddenly decide to end this kid's life on a random whim, didn't do a thing to shoot down the child's chances for recovery elsewhere, and the courts didn't side with the hospital out of a sense of authoritative solidarity.

    Like I said, they never denied the child anything. This has nothing to do with Alfie, everything to do with his parents. And I'm not gonna say they're the bad guys here, because they merely did what anyone in their situation would do. It's just...

    ...yeah, it's a shitty thing that it had to happen at all.

  14. #589
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    It's funny, I did grew up under totalitarian rule, and that's why it baffles me how people are so blind to recognise it when it's happening right under their noses and so eager to cry wolf when there isn't even a shadow of it. The child abuse law that allows the UK government to intervene in cases like this was put in place by a democratically elected parliament. It's not just the government arbitrarily going, "we'll kill this one child who's already dying." And the courts ruling against the parents is not the government gone mad with power either, it's the courts interpreting law as they should.

  15. #590
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2003
    Location: Location, Location
    You have the proper frame of reference. They don't.

  16. #591
    BANNED
    Registered: Nov 2016
    Location: Trollinus Maximus
    Quote Originally Posted by Starker View Post
    It's funny, I did grew up under totalitarian rule, and that's why it baffles me how people are so blind to recognise it when it's happening right under their noses and so eager to cry wolf when there isn't even a shadow of it. The child abuse law that allows the UK government to intervene in cases like this was put in place by a democratically elected parliament. It's not just the government arbitrarily going, "we'll kill this one child who's already dying." And the courts ruling against the parents is not the government gone mad with power either, it's the courts interpreting law as they should.
    the UnPatriot act and NSA and warrantless spying is also being done under a "democratically" elected govt . those are against our constitution and yet there they are, hell Obama passed indefinite detention w/o trial into law and got away with it.

  17. #592
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    As far as I understand, the spying was done without the public's knowledge. But yes, that's an example of real totalitarianism. As is the indefinite detention thing. And yet so many people seem okay with it.

  18. #593
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2003
    Location: Location, Location
    Hey, as long as it's keeping those Muslims locked up in Guantanamo where they belong, there's no cause for concern, right?

  19. #594
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    I'm sure Draxil is already on his way to end this abuse of state power.

  20. #595
    BANNED
    Registered: Nov 2016
    Location: Trollinus Maximus
    Quote Originally Posted by Trance View Post
    Hey, as long as it's keeping those Muslims locked up in Guantanamo where they belong, there's no cause for concern, right?
    Those there should be given their trial of let go .

    Starker. The day America once again votes from the rooftops might just happen again n my lifetime
    Last edited by jkcerda; 28th Apr 2018 at 21:43.

  21. #596
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2001
    Location: uk
    Quote Originally Posted by Draxil View Post
    third: If any judge in this country tried to do to my family what Mr. Justice Hayden has done to the Evans family, I, or someone in my family, would kill him. I'm very certain of that. It's a coldly comforting thought, and a nice touchstone--I know exactly what it would take for me to take up arms against the state. Is there anything the state could do to you that would make you take up arms against it?

    fourth: I love living in a country where I have the means at my disposal to make #3 a reality, and this entire episode has steeled my pro-gun position. The UK could only benefit from angry mobs gunning down black-robed-wig-wearing despots, methinks.
    And that is why you need guns to protect yourselves, you have a country filled with people who think that killing solves anything and that murder can be right.

    A continual refusal to understand anything at all about the UK whilst saying how terrible something that only exists in your head is doesn't really help make your point.
    Guns are not especially difficult to get if you have a need for one, most people don't need them so don't have them. In your hypothetical people taking up arms against the government the army are still massively outnumbered even with only one gun per 60ish people.

  22. #597
    BANNED
    Registered: Nov 2016
    Location: Trollinus Maximus
    Quote Originally Posted by caffeinatedzombeh View Post
    And that is why you need guns to protect yourselves, you have a country filled with people who think that killing solves anything and that murder can be right.

    A continual refusal to understand anything at all about the UK whilst saying how terrible something that only exists in your head is doesn't really help make your point.
    Guns are not especially difficult to get if you have a need for one, most people don't need them so don't have them. In your hypothetical people taking up arms against the government the army are still massively outnumbered even with only one gun per 60ish people.
    killing is last resort .
    what you guys don't seemingly get is that we are completely different, you pretend we are like the U.K and are far from it.

  23. #598
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Click image for larger version. 

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  24. #599
    BANNED
    Registered: Nov 2016
    Location: Trollinus Maximus
    you know the way to my heart Renz...... add a green card and it's all yours.

  25. #600
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    I AM SO ECLECTIC AND ZANY!

    So anyway. Yeah. Guns. The problem with saying that violence is only intended as a last resort is that no one knows what'll mark the point where everyone has to take that last resort. Considering how generally high strung Libertarians tend to be, it could be anything from a forced mass roundup of semi-auto firearms, to a 25 cent local tax on candy bars.

    A quarter more for my Kit-Kats? This is taxation! TAXATION IS THEFT! WE LIVE IN A FALLEN NATION, FORCED TO SACRIFICE OUR HARD EARNED MONEY AT THE POINT OF A GUN TO A TYRANNICAL GOVERNMENT THAT HAS MONOPOLIZED VIOLENCE! IMMA SHOOT UP CITY HALL!

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