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Thread: The Gun Thread About Guns And Gun Related Gunnery

  1. #701
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: The Plateaux Of Mirror
    Quote Originally Posted by mxleader View Post
    Maybe they didn't envision the AK but they did envision having to deal with tyrannical governments. You have to remember that the modern US government is not by the people for the people but bought by the corporation for the corporation.
    Ironically, the most influential of those corporations are gun manufacturers.

  2. #702
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2020
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Moyer View Post
    Ironically, the most influential of those corporations are gun manufacturers.
    And the main outcome of lax gun laws is unaccountable cops increasingly armed up like 40K Space Marines, and ever more draconian laws, extra-judicial killings justified because the cops couldn't be sure what you're packing. Look at the number of summary executions carried out by cops in the USA vs places where gun laws are stricter. It's just not enforcing freedom, it's enforcing fear and justifying a police state.

    And the "freedom" answer to the security issue an mass shootings is to put metal detectors and armed guards everywhere. Basically lock everything down with armed checkpoints, also suggestions that everyone needs to buy and wear bulletproof underwear, have bulletproof blankets in classrooms with constant murder-nazi drills of what to do if nutters try and murder you. Yeah maybe if no other nation existed you could claim that's the best you can do in the "best" country on the planet, but since other countries exist you can actually check if that's true or not.
    Last edited by Cipheron; 10th Aug 2022 at 05:17.

  3. #703
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2002
    Location: Point Nemo
    People driving cars kill other people. Like nurses getting drunk and killing six people. I have not heard one thing about banning alcohol or cars. In fact the amount of trauma and death caused by people freely buying cars and consuming alcohol invalidates any argument for banning AR-15 defense weapons. The numbers are not in favor of keeping cars or alcohol on the market.

  4. #704
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2002
    Location: In the flesh.
    Quote Originally Posted by mxleader View Post
    People driving cars kill other people. Like nurses getting drunk and killing six people. I have not heard one thing about banning alcohol or cars. In fact the amount of trauma and death caused by people freely buying cars and consuming alcohol invalidates any argument for banning AR-15 defense weapons. The numbers are not in favor of keeping cars or alcohol on the market.
    When they make cars or alcohol with the ability and intent to kill the most people the most quickly you may have a point. Instead they make cars as safe as possible and do not allow corn liquor strained through radiators.

    I've been looking for an excuse to post this somewhere-



    Here is one that shows said motherfucker-

    Last edited by Tocky; 11th Aug 2022 at 23:48.

  5. #705
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2002
    Location: Point Nemo
    All cars that run have the ability to do harm quickly. Also, car usage is a privilege not a right. Using Beto (Come out of the woodwork whenever there's a tragedy) O'Rourke videos is not a good counter argument. Your argument is invalid.

  6. #706
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Soooooo... You'd be okay with regulating guns like we do cars and drivers, then?

  7. #707
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2002
    Location: In the flesh.
    Quote Originally Posted by mxleader View Post
    All cars that run have the ability to do harm quickly. Also, car usage is a privilege not a right. Using Beto (Come out of the woodwork whenever there's a tragedy) O'Rourke videos is not a good counter argument. Your argument is invalid.
    The point you missed was that they don't manufacture them for that purpose. They try to make them kill as few as possible, even having speed limits and tests before they get to go on the road. They did not have cars back when they made guns a right and even then only for the sake of establishing militias. We've gone over and over this before. And no, my argument is not invalid.

    And LOL I wasn't using Beto for this argument. He did say some accurate things though. And some total ass laughed and got exactly what was coming to him. Nothing Beto said was wrong. Personally I'm glad he comes out of the woodwork to speak truth. Abbott sure as hell doesn't.

  8. #708
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2020
    Quote Originally Posted by mxleader View Post
    All cars that run have the ability to do harm quickly. Also, car usage is a privilege not a right. Using Beto (Come out of the woodwork whenever there's a tragedy) O'Rourke videos is not a good counter argument. Your argument is invalid.
    If you want to make the gun/cars analogy, as Pyrian suggested, then you should support universal licensing to carry guns, the same as a driver's test. There should be written and practical components, showing knowledge of gun laws, and also gun safety / handling, and that you're fit and trained to wield the weapon.

    Along with that, cars also require registration. So if we're saying to treat guns and cars equitably, you'd be required to register all weapons, but also to present them for periodic inspections (perhaps every two years) to demonstrate that they're in good working order and not a risk to safety.

    Clearly, that's actually the sensible middle-position between guns being completely illegal and guns being a free-for-all. The same as it is with cars.
    Last edited by Cipheron; 12th Aug 2022 at 06:10.

  9. #709
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by mxleader View Post
    People driving cars kill other people. Like nurses getting drunk and killing six people. I have not heard one thing about banning alcohol or cars. In fact the amount of trauma and death caused by people freely buying cars and consuming alcohol invalidates any argument for banning AR-15 defense weapons. The numbers are not in favor of keeping cars or alcohol on the market.
    And nobody is talking about banning guns either whereas there is far more car control in the US than there is gun control. There are a ton of regulations to make driving cars safer, whereas you are allowed to legally sell guns that are dangerous to use, even going off while holstered: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/featu...-t-be-recalled

    If car manufacturers were selling cars that exploded and killed its users every now and then, you bet your ass there would be some government action against it.

  10. #710
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2002
    Location: Point Nemo
    Quote Originally Posted by Cipheron View Post
    If you want to make the gun/cars analogy, as Pyrian suggested, then you should support universal licensing to carry guns, the same as a driver's test. There should be written and practical components, showing knowledge of gun laws, and also gun safety / handling, and that you're fit and trained to wield the weapon.

    Along with that, cars also require registration. So if we're saying to treat guns and cars equitably, you'd be required to register all weapons, but also to present them for periodic inspections (perhaps every two years) to demonstrate that they're in good working order and not a risk to safety.

    Clearly, that's actually the sensible middle-position between guns being completely illegal and guns being a free-for-all. The same as it is with cars.
    Maybe the car/gun analogy isn't the greatest because cars are not a right outlined in the Constitution. The gun argument will rage on because of the ambiguity of the second amendment. We could meet in the middle if we also consider licensing and regulating 'free speech.' I would be totally for training, licensing and censoring speech in all forms. I'm not arguing that further damage to the 2nd amendment would probably cause damage to the 1st amendment but merely proposing a trade. Thoughts?

  11. #711
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2002
    Location: Point Nemo
    Quote Originally Posted by Starker View Post
    And nobody is talking about banning guns either whereas there is far more car control in the US than there is gun control. There are a ton of regulations to make driving cars safer, whereas you are allowed to legally sell guns that are dangerous to use, even going off while holstered: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/featu...-t-be-recalled

    If car manufacturers were selling cars that exploded and killed its users every now and then, you bet your ass there would be some government action against it.
    Um, lots of politicians and lefty's are specifically wanting an all out ban on guns and the repeal of the 2nd amendment.

  12. #712
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Location: Canuckistan GWN
    No need to repeal it. Just respect the fact that it does not grant private citizens unlimited access to weapons.

  13. #713
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2002
    Location: In the flesh.
    Quote Originally Posted by mxleader View Post
    Um, lots of politicians and lefty's are specifically wanting an all out ban on guns and the repeal of the 2nd amendment.
    That isn't true. That is the boogeyman the NRA and Fox News says exists to scare the right and it works as you have just exhibited. What the left wants is controls that work. Background checks, some sort of sanity test maybe, lower capacity so you get at least some chance of getting away, a ban on assault weapons which happened with the Brady bill and actually did cut down on mass shootings, things like that. Of course when anyone mentions common sense gun legislation the right convulses in conniptions of slippery slope! slippery slope! which also is another boogeyman. There are other things which could be done to cut down on gun violence but nothing will ever get done until gun owners, of which I am one, understand they are being manipulated with an unreasonable fear by the right. And hell, isn't fear the reason most folks own a gun in the first place? Aside from hunting, which I no longer do, having harm come to my family is my fear.

  14. #714
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2020
    Quote Originally Posted by Tocky View Post
    a ban on assault weapons which happened with the Brady bill and actually did cut down on mass shootings,
    Actually the Brady Bill was the handgun one in 1993. The full title is "Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act"
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brady_...Prevention_Act

    .What the Brady Bill is associated with is this huge plummet in, specifically, hand gun killings, those were getting steadily worse every year up to and including the one where the Brady Act was passed, 1993, but did a sudden and pronounced u-turn as soon as background checks were required to get a hand gun.

    Also note, that the Brady Act brought in a mandatory 5 day waiting period to get a hand gun, but this provision was later removed in favor of instant checks around 1998, and notice that's basically the exact time that handgun deaths stopped going down and later started to rise again.

    Also keep in mind that the pro-gun "Firearm Owners Protection Act" of 1986, which hamstrung law enforcement from enforcing the 1968 gun laws, seems coincidentally to have come in right before handgun murders started to go absolutely apeshit. The law basically prevented the ATF from inspecting gun license holders, including gun shops, more than once every 12 months. So you could basically get away with running a dirty business selling handguns to gangs, knowing that if the feds had inspected you within 12 months they weren't even allowed to peek in to see what you were doing.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firear...Protection_Act

    Last edited by Cipheron; 13th Aug 2022 at 07:30.

  15. #715
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by mxleader View Post
    Um, lots of politicians and lefty's are specifically wanting an all out ban on guns and the repeal of the 2nd amendment.
    And who exactly is wanting to specifically ban all guns? Quote them where they said that.

  16. #716
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2002
    Location: In the flesh.
    Ah. You are correct. The assault weapons ban was in '94' and you can also see the gradual drop in "other guns" at that time on the graph. After it was lifted in 2004 it started goin up again. It's way up now but at least the starving gun manufacturers are making money hand over fist. Reckon that's why the propaganda blitz and scare tactics of DEY GONE TAKE MUH GUUUUUUUUNS is being waged at the expense of school children? Nah. Couldn't be.

  17. #717
    You guys are foreigners right? So you don't really understand that all these handgun deaths are drug gangs killing each other. The average American who doesn't buy or sell drugs is not involved, and there is nothing we can do about it, since the Democrat mayors of these violent cities look the other way when it comes to drug gangs.

    Since the majority of the shootings are concentrated in Democrat-run inner cities, the rest of us feel that the Democrats need to clean up their own house before they come to rural Americans and tell us to give up our hunting rifles. Nope, tell your own voter base to give up their handguns and drug businesses first.

  18. #718
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: The Plateaux Of Mirror
    Quote Originally Posted by mxleader View Post
    People driving cars kill other people.
    Ignoring the false equivalency, cars are probably the most regulated consumer good in this country. Seriously, how stupid do you have to be to even make that comparison.

    I don't think anyone, even the most hardcore "get teh gunz off r streetz" people would be upset if guns were treated the same way we treat cars. We ban cars for being dangerous, we put VINs on everything, we require title/registration/insurance and training in order to pass a test to get a license. Cops drive around all day automatically scanning plates (seriously, the roof scanners they use now are kinda neat) and pulling up owner/operator information and matching it against a criminal database. There are rules of operation that can result in penalties up to and including losing your right to operate a vehicle.

    So sure, let's treat guns as seriously as we treat cars, I'm for it.

  19. #719
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2002
    Location: In the flesh.
    Quote Originally Posted by RippedPhreak View Post
    You guys are foreigners right? So you don't really understand that all these handgun deaths are drug gangs killing each other. The average American who doesn't buy or sell drugs is not involved, and there is nothing we can do about it, since the Democrat mayors of these violent cities look the other way when it comes to drug gangs.

    Since the majority of the shootings are concentrated in Democrat-run inner cities, the rest of us feel that the Democrats need to clean up their own house before they come to rural Americans and tell us to give up our hunting rifles. Nope, tell your own voter base to give up their handguns and drug businesses first.
    Seriously? I talk of Republican propaganda boogeymen and you post another? Sure you are prejudiced against those scary brown people in those scary cities but do you really think that is where all the gun violence is? Overall there are more gun deaths in rural areas than cities. Don't believe me. Look it up. The only percentage which is higher in cities is handgun deaths. By a lot right? No. Six percent.

    Here is a graph-



    And you know it's not just Democrat cities. Ever hear of Dallas?

  20. #720
    Absurd graph. I know Chicago alone had 3,561 shooting incidents in 2021, including 797 of them resulting in homicides. Places like Atlanta and Baltimore are similar. But the folks there have been brainwashed into Republican = Nazi KKK, so they just keep voting for Democrats who take all the money and stuff it into their own pockets instead of using it to fight crime.

    Not sure where you're getting all these rural shootings, unless it's a lot of suicides, in which case people would probably find a way to kill themselves even if you banned guns. I haven't seen any stories of Cletus and Roscoe having shootouts in the cornfields, anyway.

    But yeah it's pretty much all drug gangs doing this. You might as well hold all Mexicans responsible for the atrocities of the Jalisco cartel, it would be the same logic.

  21. #721
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2002
    Location: In the flesh.
    Not brainwashed. Observant. They see who white supremacists support. They hear the same dog whistles that "good people on both sides" do. They know that they are not rich and that the first thing Republicans do is vote tax cuts for the rich which deprive their area of funds. It's not like this is hard to figure out. They know who help them with education programs and health insurance. Do Republicans really think they can fool people on those things? Please.

    And most deaths by gun are suicide. But even so the difference per capita from rural to city is small. There are more people packed into cities. Of course there would be more crime there. Cletus and Roscoe have a shootout in the country but there are not nearly as many of them there and even then they are spread out. It's all logic once you get beyond Republican scare tactics.

    Gangs are violent. Always have been even in the days of Capone. But in the country you have the meth monkeys who get into shoot outs. In the small towns there are bad neighborhoods. Black market goods that people want are always going to have violence associated with them.

    My advice would be to quit being so scared you will lose your gun and to start thinking about all the people who are lost to them. They don't have to be taken away to make things safer. But there are common sense things which can be done.

  22. #722
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    It's not absurd, what he posted is blatantly dishonest. His graph comes from a 2001 study from a journal of internal medicine. That particular graph looks at total deaths by gun type, including homicide and suicide. If you look at type of death (murder vs suicide) the rate is 10 points higher in the urban setting. Oh, and the data for this article came from Washington state, alone. It's illustrative of the reason that arguing about gun control with progressives is pointless; they're historical revisionists when it comes to the second amendment, they manipulate statistics, and they're unwilling to do anything that would actually have an effect on gun crime--i.e., enforce the laws already on the books. In 2019 the Department of Justice issued a report on where criminals get their guns. Unsurprisingly, most don't get their guns at retail stores, and fewer that 1% get them at gun shows. The reason for this is background checks actually work pretty well.

    I'm not sure how many of you have actually completed Form 4473, but it is very clear when you fill it out that it is a felony to lie while filling it out. When it is complete and witnessed by the dealer, it is submitted to NICS; if you are denied because you flag as a felon, or domestic abuser, or substance abuser, or anything else--congratulations, you're eligible to spend the next 10 years behind bars. In 2017 NICS denied 112,000 such purchases to felons and others that were ineligible (automatic felony). The ATF ignored 100,000 of them and sent about 12,000 to its field offices for further investigation. They prosecuted 12. About 1 in 10,000. Major cities are lax in prosecuting gun crimes, straw purchases, illegal possessions etc., because putting more minorities in prison isn't a look that they want, politically. It's easier to focus on the AR-15, used in a tiny fraction of gun deaths, and used mainly by white males, than it is to do the politically inexpedient thing and prosecute the crimes and remove the criminals from the streets.

    I'll believe Democrats are serious about reducing gun deaths and crime when Hunter Biden is in jail for lying on form 4473 to illegally purchase a gun in 2018, a year which he spent higher than a kite on cocaine according to his memoir. His girlfriend/sister-in-law was so concerned about him harming himself or her that she took it out of the trunk of his car (that's some safe storage), and threw it away, loaded, into a full dumpster across the street from a high school. It went missing almost immediately, found by a guy who was dumpster diving.

  23. #723
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2020
    Quote Originally Posted by RippedPhreak View Post
    Absurd graph. I know Chicago alone had 3,561 shooting incidents in 2021, including 797 of them resulting in homicides. Places like Atlanta and Baltimore are similar. But the folks there have been brainwashed into Republican = Nazi KKK, so they just keep voting for Democrats who take all the money and stuff it into their own pockets instead of using it to fight crime.

    Not sure where you're getting all these rural shootings, unless it's a lot of suicides, in which case people would probably find a way to kill themselves even if you banned guns. I haven't seen any stories of Cletus and Roscoe having shootouts in the cornfields, anyway.

    But yeah it's pretty much all drug gangs doing this. You might as well hold all Mexicans responsible for the atrocities of the Jalisco cartel, it would be the same logic.
    Google

    Here are the 10 states with the highest murder rate:

    Louisiana (12.4 per 100k)
    Missouri (9.8 per 100k)
    Nevada (9.1 per 100k)
    Maryland (9 per 100k)
    Arkansas (8.6 per 100k)
    Alaska (8.4 per 100k)
    Alabama (8.3 per 100k)
    Mississippi (8.2 per 100k)
    Or this one:

    https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/s...y/homicide.htm

    This kind of check doesn't reveal a list of places where the Democrats are calling the shots.

    A lot of these places have poverty and crime hotspots because they're Jim Crow states where they herded the black people after slavery ended. And the Republican-dominated state legislatures continue to gut any attempt to alleviate poverty in those cities. Keep 'em poor is their literal strategy, and if some of those cities vote Democrat to try and turn things around, then the state legislature just ramps up the laws designed to fuck everyone.

    You'd think that New York State and California would have the worst crime hotspots if it was related to Democrats being in charge, but they don't.

    ---

    An example is that recently, there was a bipartisan law to fund medical treatment for Veterans, if those Veterans were injured on duty by stuff we did to them. However, Ted Cruz and others backflipped and switched their votes to block the bill, and the reason was because the Democrats managed to pass a different unrelated bill, so blocking a bill that was gonna help Veterans was political payback. Ted Cruz and another member then 'high fived' after blocking the bill to help the veterans. His attitude was "lol, veterans, fuck 'em right" and it was a moment of mirth. He's a fucking monster and a tool.

    Cruz was later forced to switch his vote after fierce criticism:
    https://www.texastribune.org/2022/08...s-health-care/

    And these are the people you're given cover for. Ted Cruz, a man who would fuck over crippled veterans just to try and score points in a popularity contest.
    Last edited by Cipheron; 13th Aug 2022 at 17:58.

  24. #724
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2002
    Location: In the flesh.
    Progressives are dishonest, Draxil? Who was it that put an end to the government collection of statistics on guns? Was that progressives? No. That was conservatives. Now why would they do that? Hmmmmm. And oh my ten points higher in a concentration of people vs. being spread out! Wow. And sure progressives are against enforcing gun laws! Sure they are! Why, Fox news says so so it must be true! Please. The rest of what you said was just distraction.

  25. #725
    They know who help them with education programs and health insurance. Do Republicans really think they can fool people on those things?
    It's cute that you think Democrats actually help anyone with education, health care, or anything really. They pass new taxes for schools or whatever, but then oopsie, the money disappears into their friends' pockets. If Democrats actually helped anyone, then cities like Chicago that have been under Dem leadership for 90 years straight should be doing OK. They aren't.

    Anyway, I don't care about Republicans because they are useless too. They serve mostly as an Emmanuel Goldstein for Dems to point and screech at. "LOOK! THIS is the enemy!" All the while the other hand is picking the poor man's pocket. But at this point neither party can or will do anything useful. Earlier in this thread I already explained to you that the USA is a failed state in a slow process of collapse, and that it's too late to save it. We're headed for some kind of split or balkanization no matter what.

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